Magic Brainstorming

[Atgxtg]

6 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Well... In that specific case... my personal feeling is that it is Protection and Enhance damage that are too strong and I nerfed them. They both go only from 1 to 5 as per spell rank (i.e. it's quite hard to learn the rank 5 version)

That is pretty much RQ2. Weapon damage spells tended to be capped at 4 points and protective spells at 6. IMO though I think your difficulties stemmed not from the fact that protection, and damage enhance were too powerful but from the fact that you limited magic only to spellcasters. In RQ everyone knows a little magic so spells that increase damage tend to be countered by protection and vice versa. 

But my point about casters enchanting all thier gear, and that of their allies, is still there. It's worth the 1 POW every couple of adventures to keep a 5 point protection up full time.

 

6 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

and the intensity of the spell in that case only increase duration or number of items that can be enhanced.

Whoa! That's a big change there. Are you going to let multiple items be enchanted for only 1 POW?

6 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Now, to proactively retort to possible concerns about characters not doing enough damage (not sure it is a real concern in BRP, but let say it is), there are combat perks (Perks and spell both use INT slot, perk often requires some skills at 70% to acquire) that can 1. increase weapon damage 1 dice step (i.e. D8 => D10), 2. do more powerful melee attack (+d6) at the cost of 3FP (or 2, or 1, still undecided)

I don't think anyone has concerns about someone not doing enough damage, except perhaps you. In my experience that really ins't a problem in BRP.

6 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

This idea did also cross my mind. And I quite like it. But I feel as if it doesn't quite make sense to make a spell on someone else permanent.

First Off: Why not? Isn't that how magical items are created? 

Secondly: It wouldn't be permanent, not unless the caster were fine with not getting those magic point back, and the spell probably should lapse when the caster went to sleep or otherwise went unconscious. 

6 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Although, as I thought about a reply, perhaps it could lock the willing target own MP to achieve that?

Possible but far more dangerous to your campaign. You see if the spell limits the spellcasters magic points it acts as a limit on the spellcaster. If it uses the target's MP then it's basically a freebie and spellcasters can go wild casting long term spells on everybody. Assuming no other magical storage for the moment, If a caster has 15 POW and is holding up two five point spells, he's only got 5 magic points available for other things. But, if he doesn't have to worry about the magic points then there is no reason not to power up the whole group. Nor any reason for NPC casters not to do the same. What you'd wind up with would be similar to RuneQuest's Battle Magic but with one caster per side and everyone being maxed out most of the time. For someone who was cornered about certain spells being overpowered, you seem to be course correcting in the opposite direction.

6 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Well... there is a bit of powering up happening. And also be inspired by Master of Magic spell... Some Town spell (but not all mind you) have a relatively modest and quite diffuse effect (for example: increase productivity leading to double tax revenue), so I ballparked the spells to 1MP per 1~10 inhabitants.
For some more impactful spell, such as antiteleport shield, firewall, etc... one could argue it need not pay for the full area, but with some preparation / engineering / enchanting (using lots "manarod" placed strategically in the town) one only need to pay (linearly) for the perimeter, not the area..... so perfectly affordable at linear cost to a fulltime of college of wizard dipping in fire and hydro power or a mananode to boost, I reckon (more math to come on my napkin).

I don't think it would be. It might look good in your head, but I think if you sit down and try to apply it to some real areas and situations the magic point costs will be prohibitive. For instance just going from a 10x10 tower to a 20x20 tower would mean covering four times the area. 

6 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Though, ahem, having a flying city, even if temporarily (it's a MoM spell, that would look nice here)... looks difficult with the fuzzy costing constraints I have in my mind.

I don't think it would be possible. Say you have a small  medieval city with 10000 people, but your most generous method that would require 500 magic points, and if the spell were dispelled the whole city would come crashing down, killing all the inhabitents, destroying the city, and possibly causing a cataclysmic event. A falling city is going to be like dropping a nuke. In fact, this would really work out best as a weapon. An evil sorcerer could enchant a city block or two, place it over a target and then cancel the spell. THat +1d6 per 3m can really add up. 

 

THat's why I worry about making sweeping changes to the magic system. It is very easy for a clever player to co opt something the GM considered to be a minor effect and use it in ways the GM hadn't considered. Just with the above I think I could replicate the effects of a a 16 " naval gun pretty easily, or even a small nuke. 

6 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Perhaps mananodes provide large mana boost (for such spell as a flying city)? I would have to make them noticeably different though, not sure how to Justify them... lore and geography wise though.

Why reinvent the whel? I think you are really going at this the hard way. If I were you I'd use one of the existing magic systems and see how it works rather than try to build your own and hope that it works. I think the way you are going will go bad becuase someone will exploit something you hadn't considered. 

[Mugen]

19 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

One idea you might want to consider is the one I threw out in another thread for a Star Wars RPG . Namely that spells could be kept up, but the magic points are locked up maintaining the spell, and the character doesn't start to recover them until the spell is dropped. So if someone has 12 POW and is keeping up a 6 point spell they would only have 6 magic points. If they drop the spell then they would recover 1 MP per 2 hours as usual. 

 

12 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

This idea did also cross my mind. And I quite like it. But I feel as if it doesn't quite make sense to make a spell on someone else permanent. Although, as I thought about a reply, perhaps it could lock the willing target own MP to achieve that?

That idea was also used in MRQ2 (in the Arms & Equipment supplement) and in Mythras Sorcery (with the Enchant spell).

It seems to me Pete Nash and/or @Lozsuggested it was possible to use another MP source than the caster's for enchants in MRQ2. Cristals, for instance.

But Mythras only mentions the Sorcerer's MP.

[Atgxtg]

30 minutes ago, Mugen said:

 

That idea was also used in MRQ2 (in the Arms & Equipment supplement) and in Mythras Sorcery (with the Enchant spell).

Cool.

30 minutes ago, Mugen said:

It seems to me Pete Nash and/or @Lozsuggested it was possible to use another MP source than the caster's for enchants in MRQ2. Cristals, for instance.

But Mythras only mentions the Sorcerer's MP.

I think the problem with crstals is that most only store magic points, they do not generate them, and have to be recharged by someone. So having a spell work indefinitely off of one would be a freebie. Now if it was a crystal that actually generated it's own magic points, that would be another story. 

BTRC's magic system is somewhat similar. There magic items are basically containers that hold the magical energy that powers the spells. The reason why magical items are of high quality is to make sure they don't have any flaws where the magic could leak out.  If the object gets damaged then energy leaks out and the spells no longer function.

[Lloyd Dupont]

Replying from work on my phone... So not really replying for now .. just adding some precision.

1. I don't find wizard too powerful (in BRP specifically, as opposed to mythras or runequest 3 - from what I remember), what I do find is min-maxed beginner magician too powerful too easily compared to other beginners. This is a slightly different statement. I expect non beginner to have an array of defensive items. Armour and magic armour if you like.

2. Neither in the past nor in my future campaign I limited magic to "magician", on the contrary (despite the intro about familiar, magic staff, etc... In the gold book). Anyway what I didn't do was give everyone the same spells. It's going to get even more segregated here, with magic branches

3. I certainly don't think damage is lacking in BRP, but I know other do. I was occasionally told not to nerf wizard damage, because one might need big damage to fight big creatures

4. I don't think I'll do flying city after all.

5. City spell are as much the work of a singular powerful sorcerer, as iPhone are made by Steve jobs. It's really a team and long time effort. The powerful sorcerer is simply the boss. And maybe not even the most powerful.

Hence yea it's prohibitive to enchant your magic Castle. But if you afford an army of 20,000 soldiers, surely you can pay the 100 sorcerers from the local guild to work 3 month a year, every year, on your castle defence 

They should also work on the sewer and construction business to build better housing as well!

Edited July 26, 2023 by Lloyd Dupont

[Raleel]

13 hours ago, Mugen said:

It seems to me Pete Nash and/or @Lozsuggested it was possible to use another MP source than the caster's for enchants in MRQ2. Cristals, for instance.

 

geomantic nodes are mentioned in Monster Island and do exactly this, though are not portable. Additionally, there is such a stone in Sorandib, but I don't remember if it generates its own. it is also not portable.

A similar concept exists in Theism with the devotional pool, though you fill it with your own or points from veneration.

The concept of such a thing is probably moved into the Magic chapter and a combination of recovering rate (p117) and an item.

11 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

5. City spell are as much the work of a singular powerful sorcerer, as iPhone are made by Steve jobs. It's really a team and long time effort. The powerful sorcerer is simply the boss. And maybe not even the most powerful.

You can find a concept like this in Monster Island, under Orchestrated casting, p129. I feel like there is another version of this in the Legend Blood Magic book, but may be mistaken. There is a version of this for Folk magic you may be able to appropriate in Sorandib, under Work Songs.

11 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Hence yea it's prohibitive to enchant your magic Castle. But if you afford an army of 20,000 soldiers, surely you can pay the 100 sorcerers from the local guild to work 3 month a year, every year, on your castle defence 

Mythras solves this problem with a Gift to enhance magics beyond their normal limits. Several examples exist in Monster Island, like Aggrandise, which allows an illusion to have a diameter of 100m per point of intensity and makes it permanent as well. It is also single use, and you must spend XP to be able to cast it again. A similar one for flying could be made easily enough.

11 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

1. I don't find wizard too powerful (in BRP specifically, as opposed to mythras or runequest 3 - from what I remember), what I do find is min-maxed beginner magician too powerful too easily compared to other beginners. This is a slightly different statement. I expect non beginner to have an array of defensive items. Armour and magic armour if you like.

In Mythras at least, I do this with giving them folk magic and perhaps a single sorcery spell or two. Several examples are found at https://d100-workshop.blogspot.com/search/label/sorcery

One thing we've found to help control the power of sorcerers is the inclusion of Intensity as a shaping component. Thus, you have to pay for power for the spell. It has a much stronger impact than expected effect

I hope these structures help you, even if you are not using Sorcery.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Raleel

[Mugen]

12 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I think the problem with crstals is that most only store magic points, they do not generate them, and have to be recharged by someone. So having a spell work indefinitely off of one would be a freebie. Now if it was a crystal that actually generated it's own magic points, that would be another story. 

To be honest, it's one of those cases where I think MRQ2 needed polish and Mythras offered an upgrade.

Compared to Mythras, Enchants in MRQ2 required to block a lot of MPs. Either all the MPs in the spell, or the spell's Intensity, I don't remember well. In Mythras, i only blocks the MPs used to cast the spell, which means less than 6.

[Raleel]

38 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Either all the MPs in the spell, or the spell's Intensity, I don't remember well. In Mythras, i only blocks the MPs used to cast the spell, which means less than 6.

That is correct. You Combine with Enchant and that makes it permanent. I think there might be an extra one for using combine but regardless, it’s still one per shaping component locked up. Monster island offers a gift to use someone else’s magic points as well. 

[Mugen]

4 hours ago, Raleel said:

That is correct. You Combine with Enchant and that makes it permanent. I think there might be an extra one for using combine but regardless, it’s still one per shaping component locked up. Monster island offers a gift to use someone else’s magic points as well. 

I was counting Combine as one of the MPs in the spell. 🙂