Magic Brainstorming

[Lloyd Dupont]

Sorry for the wall of text, I tried to cut it in bite size paragraph. Here I am sharing all the magical rules that keep me awake at night. And looking to share ideas.

So, I am preparing a campaign and preparing custom rules for my setting and upcoming campaign, the biggest chunk of which is a custom magic system.
Remark this is a high magic fantasy setting. Think D&D level of magic abuse, or maybe more, I want city spells! Think Master of Magic or Age of Wonders 4 if you know those video games. (no "magic users" class or "gifted user" though, one just need to own a focus, and then practice the skills)

I can't quite use the current magic systems in BRP, I tried them all (BRP Magic, Revolution D100 Arcane Magic, Mythras Sorcery) and I was unsatisfied. Though what I read in Classic Fantasy for Mythras pleased me, but not using that after brainstorming with my players.... Further there is a flavor missing related to the magic lore in my setting.

For the need of the lore and setting the magic need to be divided in (large enough number of) branches, of spell that are thematically linked together, magic user be more like "Avatar, the last air bender" than "Gandalf" or, mm.. you know the old powerful very knowledgeable wizard type. Already made large spell lists for the following branches: Arcane, Elementalism, Nature, Illusion, Spatial, Soul, Life, Death
That's a minor problem.

Now the bigger problem now. I want the magic to feel "balanced". What does that mean exactly? 

To be honest, I am not entirely sure, collected various tidbits below to consider or criticize. Although it means at least one thing: even when min maxing a starting magic user character, one should not make non magic users feel redundant and vastly outclassed. In order to achieve that, my current idea is to divide spells in Rank (like spell level in D&D), 5 so far. And it's kind of impossible to start with anything beyond rank 1. (Also added perks that improve non magical prowess, but it's another topic ^^)

I am not too sure yet about learning requirement for other ranks yet. Initially I was thinking to demand to learn a spell of each rank in turn to like 70%... But that seems way too tedious and long.. (I don't want those "rank 5 spell" to be legendary never seen, much like level 9 spell in D&D). Now it's just increasingly harder to learn higher rank (like -30% to -120% arcane knowledge skill check to learn a spell) and knowing other spells of the same branch or having a teacher or having a tome give modest bonus.

I am also very undecided about "endgame" magical prowess... though I'd like them to be quite compatible with vanilla BRP, since I plan to use vanilla BRP monsters. And also the big book of monsters.

So here are some "magic endgame" rules, about which I am both undecided but think I want to... think about it some more!

1. spell save. I guess long lived successful adventurer and sorcerers all converge towards 20 in POW right? or 50% to resist a spell? Is it good or bad? Unsure.. but I think it make it very unlikely for anyone to live along beyond pure chance.. perhaps there should be some sort of common enough "Magic armor" thing, right? Like, for example, one that give bonus defensive POW, max being.. 5?)? or, alternatively, or additionally, common brooch of protection with something like Countermagic (but only absorb spell instead)?

2. somewhat related, was wondering about metal armor to be somewhat naturally antimagic (or maybe crafted that way hey?), so make it so that
2a..: hard to cast spell with armor, a lore reason to limit magic user to light armor like 25% cast spell malus
2b. and maybe a resistance roll below, say 25% (same value as in 2a.) to be always a success / cancel spell
(it's like the ENC rule for Magic but it has a little more impact)

3. spell effect, Control (~3MP ~maybe a little too cheap?) is game over, Teleport (~5MP) in the sky too, or Change (~5MP) into a fish as well, or Lift (~5MP) high up as well. I guess, there are no question here, just thinking aloud. Those should be "rank 3" and require "concentration" i.e. somewhat limiting the wizard. Happy here other than, the save "issue" that still bother me (see issue 1 & 2 above). Also reminds me that all BRP-Magic spells are inherently scalable, which is both annoying and pleasing. And wondering whether it meshes well with the added categorization into "spell rank".
3a. Those cost a lot more for large creatures. I guess it's fine. Plus using idea 4, below, large spell takes a few rounds to cast, make it more dramatic)

4. Spell Damage. The issue that frustrates me the most. Those might have no save (like arrows), or the save could be gamed (by doing some normal weapon combat first!) and also sometimes even ignore armor! And also cost a shit ton of MP, while a polymorph into fish cost only 5 MP. So it is very frustrating and do not feel good for caster and victims alike.
4a. some general pattern: in the BRP book spell tend to - partially - ignore armor - or having other effect, be single target, avoidable with Evade and cost 1MP per point of damage with max damage being ~ INT*3/2
4b. => thinking to added various spell with various cost deviation from above, and split them in rank. For example:
- rank 1: bolt, ~ 1 damage per MP, max INT/2, behave like an javelin regarding defensive options and wound
- rank 2: multibolt, ~ 1 damage per MP +4, max INT/2+4 (same as bolt 1, but cheaper and higher base damage, good target for multiple cast of the same spell in one go, as per usual magic rule), , behave like an arrow regarding defensive options and wound
- rank 3: as base BRP but build multitarget, i.e. not 3MP per D6 per target, but 3MP per D6 and 1MP per meter/target.. Area damage
- rank 4, maybe same thing but cost 2MP per D6., Area damage
4c. Magic armor should protect against full to the full extent of it, obviously...

5. if some spell cost lots of MP (because they are "powerful") me think to maximized MP per round based on rank or something, so powerful spell have another limitation: one can see them coming... I am fine with that

6. Enhance, Protection. Turns out Enhance in BRP.UGE is more reasonable, not increasing max damage. At any rate was thinking of a +1 to +5 for both (as per rank), extended MP cost for duration. and protection could additionally also add Extra HP (like 3HP per MP?)

7. The idea crossed my mind to use Classic Fantasy - Mythras edition spells. But there are a few problem with that. Here, as per my vaguely favorite choice and also player choice will use BRP. Which would have 1 skill per spell. Undermining the intensity system. Preventing to use the Willpower vs Spell system. Also while the spell damage scale pleases me, it's not very "compatible" (or similar) to monster ability in the BGB, like the 10D6 Angelic bolt. And also work better with HP like they do in Mythras... And also city spell do not fit very well in that mix

8. Think a meditation skill would be nice. Could be tied to a "Diamond Soul" perk to resist magic. But what would be the use of Meditation skill, I wonder? The idea cross my mind to have meditation and arcane knowledge be the same thing. But meditation would require additional utility...

Ok this is the full list of magic stuff that I am unsure about but would like... to compare ideas with other magically creative GMs! 🙂

[Atgxtg]

You might want to take a peek at the RQ3 Sorcery System. 

It allowed for some very big, powerful magic, but limited it magic point cost. You could literally have spells that could cover a city, or last days but they would cost lots of magic points. I think it would give you the big spells but help to keep the damage under control. Damage spells in RQ3 Sorcery were ususally about 1 point per point of INTENSITY rather than 1D6, but a powerful sorceror could attack mutiple people or a large area at the same time.

 

Another thing you might want to consider is Battle MAgic. In RQ everyone knows some minor spirirt magic, or battle magic. These help to offset the abilties of dedicated spellcaster. This might help with the game balance thing. A warrior won't be as vulnerable to a sorceror if they can cast Countermagic and Protection.

 

 

 

 

[Mugen]

I second RuneQuest Sorcery, but more precisely the revised ruies Sandy Petersen created in 1998 or so.

In this new rules system, Sorcery is limited by one's skill and "Presence". Presence is based on vows the sorcerer takes and acts as a limit to the number of spells can keep active at once. The vows, which were meant to fit SP's view on Malkioni sorcery, could be replaced by something else.

A major drawback is that RS3 Sorcery requires a *lot* of skills. One per spell, and one per "Art. Quite like if in Mythras you had obe skill per manipulation category, except Sandy Petersn introduced new manipulations, such as the possibility to cast a spell quicker, cheaper, or prepare it in advance to be released instantly.

[Lloyd Dupont]

Hi yall, thanks for commenting! 🙂 Sorry.. was unhappy with whatever reply I could write.. self censored meself...

Basically I sounded like a killjoy with nothing good to say to my own ears! Sorry....

Edited July 20, 2023 by Lloyd Dupont

[Atgxtg]

Oh and to clarify this: the reason why I suggested RQ3 Sorcery is that it allowed high powered magic but is balanced against the other RQ3 magic systems and to some extent, even non-magic.  Most of the other high powered magic systems, pretty much any magic system in a BRP game other than RQ,  are not balanced and make spellcasters overpowered. 

And yeah, Sand'ys revised Srocery is an impromvent, as is any of the variants that get rid of FreeINT. I think there is a version where intenity is tied to skill score. 

On 7/19/2023 at 12:58 PM, Mugen said:

A major drawback is that RS3 Sorcery requires a *lot* of skills. One per spell, and one per "Art. Quite like if in Mythras you had obe skill per manipulation category, except Sandy Petersn introduced new manipulations, such as the possibility to cast a spell quicker, cheaper, or prepare it in advance to be released instantly.

Yeah, but it RQ3 Sorcery had a very high upside. There are few limits, and with enough magic points, time and Intensity a sorcerer can do practically anything. All the other magical systems (save perhaps Lunar Magic) have limits. Spirit Magic limits the number and power of spells you can know at one time, Divine Magic requires sacrificing POW, and the options available are severely limited by your cult. Sorcery though allows you to do just about anything, if you can make the rolls spends the magic points, and have enough FreeINT for the intensity. Sand'y mod made sorcery even better so the learning curve is fair. Plus it keeps PCs from leveling cities out of the gate.

[Mugen]

On 7/19/2023 at 4:54 PM, Lloyd Dupont said:

To be honest, I am not entirely sure, collected various tidbits below to consider or criticize. Although it means at least one thing: even when min maxing a starting magic user character, one should not make non magic users feel redundant and vastly outclassed. In order to achieve that, my current idea is to divide spells in Rank (like spell level in D&D), 5 so far. And it's kind of impossible to start with anything beyond rank 1. (Also added perks that improve non magical prowess, but it's another topic ^^)

IMHO, the best way to achieve this is to give non-magic users "something" to compete against them. See how Shadowrun characters can have cyberware, for instance.

A defining concept in BRP is that characters are defined by their skills, and nothing prevents a magician to be as good at fighting with a sword or being sneaky than a non-magician. Every character can fight with a sword, hide in darkness, find hidden objects, etc., magicians and non-magicians alike. But magicians have the benefit of being able to do thing other characters can't.

Concerning your "ranks", Nephilim (its French 2 first editions, at least) had a system with 3 different skills of increasing power level for each kind of magic. Before learning rank N+1 skill, you had to first rise your rank N skill over 90%. To learn a Rank N spell, you had to have appropriate skill at a given level, depending on your

You don't necessarily need to use muiliple skills like this, though. You could require Skill 40% to learn Rank 2, 80% to learn Rank 3, and so on...

[RosenMcStern]

Caution: RQ3 sorcery as written is very fun, but it has a lot of drawbacks. It was an incomplete system, as eventually admitted by the authors themselves. And it certainly does not allow city-spanning spells.

Sandy's Sorcery is a much better revision of the sorcery concept. It is the recommended version.

[Raleel]

On 7/19/2023 at 7:54 AM, Lloyd Dupont said:

Remark this is a high magic fantasy setting. Think D&D level of magic abuse, or maybe more, I want city spells! Think Master of Magic or Age of Wonders 4 if you know those video games.

 

On 7/19/2023 at 7:54 AM, Lloyd Dupont said:

Although it means at least one thing: even when min maxing a starting magic user character, one should not make non magic users feel redundant and vastly outclassed.

this indicates a pretty steep acceleration as you go up in rank.

 

On 7/19/2023 at 7:54 AM, Lloyd Dupont said:

I am not too sure yet about learning requirement for other ranks yet. Initially I was thinking to demand to learn a spell of each rank in turn to like 70%... But that seems way too tedious and long.. (I don't want those "rank 5 spell" to be legendary never seen, much like level 9 spell in D&D). Now it's just increasingly harder to learn higher rank (like -30% to -120% arcane knowledge skill check to learn a spell) and knowing other spells of the same branch or having a teacher or having a tome give modest bonus.

how about an ever increasing amount of experience to learn it? dropping 20-30 xp on A spell is pretty serious.

On 7/19/2023 at 7:54 AM, Lloyd Dupont said:

1. spell save. I guess long lived successful adventurer and sorcerers all converge towards 20 in POW right? or 50% to resist a spell? Is it good or bad? Unsure.. but I think it make it very unlikely for anyone to live along beyond pure chance.. perhaps there should be some sort of common enough "Magic armor" thing, right? Like, for example, one that give bonus defensive POW, max being.. 5?)? or, alternatively, or additionally, common brooch of protection with something like Countermagic (but only absorb spell instead)?

this is easily tunable. I think you just have to pick what you want, and frankly, you can deal with that later.

On 7/19/2023 at 7:54 AM, Lloyd Dupont said:

2. somewhat related, was wondering about metal armor to be somewhat naturally antimagic (or maybe crafted that way hey?), so make it so that
2a..: hard to cast spell with armor, a lore reason to limit magic user to light armor like 25% cast spell malus
2b. and maybe a resistance roll below, say 25% (same value as in 2a.) to be always a success / cancel spell
(it's like the ENC rule for Magic but it has a little more impact)

a simple penalty here works well, or increasing cost. no mage wears metal armor because it costs (for example) an extra magic point PER armor penalty point, or something.

On 7/19/2023 at 7:54 AM, Lloyd Dupont said:

3. spell effect, Control (~3MP ~maybe a little too cheap?) is game over, Teleport (~5MP) in the sky too, or Change (~5MP) into a fish as well, or Lift (~5MP) high up as well. I guess, there are no question here, just thinking aloud. Those should be "rank 3" and require "concentration" i.e. somewhat limiting the wizard. Happy here other than, the save "issue" that still bother me (see issue 1 & 2 above). Also reminds me that all BRP-Magic spells are inherently scalable, which is both annoying and pleasing. And wondering whether it meshes well with the added categorization into "spell rank".
3a. Those cost a lot more for large creatures. I guess it's fine. Plus using idea 4, below, large spell takes a few rounds to cast, make it more dramatic)

i think maybe think less about the specific mechanics and think about what you actually want. what does the spell look like. what power level are you going for. write it down, not just in your head.

I think the major issue is you don't have a clear idea of what you want. Myself, I would use Mythras sorcery, and I would modify it. For example, I've been working on a Shadowrun-like sorcery. I dumped almost all of the Shaping Components save for one or two, then added new ones, and added parameters to the spells. Using ritual magic time for higher end spells, but that allows them great ranges and areas and impacts. Of course, you don't have to use Mythras Sorcery, but the concept is the same - modify as you need

Altering the individual spells is also a good way to go. I recently posted a sorcery school on my blog with some fair amount of alteration of the spells themselves. I have a couple more that are altered heavily, including one that uses several versions of wrack almost exclusively.

 

[Atgxtg]

14 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

Caution: RQ3 sorcery as written is very fun, but it has a lot of drawbacks. It was an incomplete system, as eventually admitted by the authors themselves. And it certainly does not allow city-spanning spells.

Sure it does if you got enough FreeINT, magic points, etc. It's just that such a spell probably won't be worth the trouble. 

14 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

Sandy's Sorcery is a much better revision of the sorcery concept. It is the recommended version.

Agreed. It's a shame that they they never got a chance to revise the Sorcery system. It was the most flexible and the more magical of the various magic systems. Divine/Rune MAgic was a goift from the gods, and Spriit/Battle MAgic was ultitarian and tool like, but Sorcery  was more magical and self powering. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Atgxtg

[Lloyd Dupont]

14 hours ago, RosenMcStern said:

Caution: RQ3 sorcery as written is very fun, but it has a lot of drawbacks. It was an incomplete system, as eventually admitted by the authors themselves. And it certainly does not allow city-spanning spells.

Sandy's Sorcery is a much better revision of the sorcery concept. It is the recommended version.

Ahem.. All I know / remember (from 1990-ies, when I last play RQ3), is that it looks very much like Mythras Sorcery (although cost more MP and has a higher manipolation ceiling). Could someone.. mmm... gimme an idea about what I am missing?

 

Hey Raleel! Thanks for tuning is! And good suggestions too! 🙂
Yes.. the fact I am uncertain myself doesn't help, haha. Anyway love your idea of extra MP cost when wearing metal armor!
And side note, I came up with a pleasing enough (to me) "Sorcerer Rank" system (which impact learning spell - ie. ranked spell) and also spell cost reduction...

 

[Mugen]

6 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Ahem.. All I know / remember (from 1990-ies, when I last play RQ3), is that it looks very much like Mythras Sorcery (although cost more MP and has a higher manipolation ceiling). Could someone.. mmm... gimme an idea about what I am missing?

First, in Mythras you're only allowed to spread a number of points in spell manipulation equal to your Shaping skill/10. It may only cost 2 MP to add range and duration to a spell, but if your skill is 80, you'd only have 8 points to divide between those two.

Second, Mythras manipulations are linear, whereas in RQ3 they are exponential in their lower tier. As a result, Range 9 in Mythras is only 10 times the base range, whereas in RQ3 it's more than 1000 times the base value (I don't have the numbers in mind). Plus, in Sandy Petersen's rules there's no duration anymore : spells are either instantaneous or permanent until dismissed or dispelled, but they reduce your Presence.

Third, RQ3 also has Sorcery Enchants, which allow you to freely add X levels to a spell with no extra MP cost (even though it first cost you POW), or crystals and MP matrices to increase your MP maximum. Note that in SP's rules, MP matrices were way more effective than the base RQ version, creating multiple MP storages at once.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Mugen

[Lloyd Dupont]

Hah funnily enough I remembered Mythras wrong but RQ3 right! 😮

Anyway this spell being permanent, at the cost of "presence", or instantaneous sounds interesting... But it just rubs me wrong that one need presence to maintain a spell very far away... (as in the wizard polymorph the guy into a rabbit, the rabbit hop away, the wizard's presence maintain the rabbit polymorph from very far away, or cancel it from far away...)

Edited July 22, 2023 by Lloyd Dupont

[Raleel]

16 hours ago, Mugen said:

Second, Mythras manipulations are linear, whereas in RQ3 they are exponential in their lower tier. As a result, Range 9 in Mythras is only 10 times the base range, whereas in RQ3 it's more than 1000 times the base value (I don't have the numbers in mind).

This is incorrect for some shaping components. Distance is not linear - 1x pow in meters, then 5x, then 10x, then 50, then 100, and increases from there. Range 9 is 10000x the base range of touch.

duration is also not linear if you use the extended duration table (which is optional but right there in core). Duration 9 on that table is about 2.5 million times the base duration  

after the vampire wars uses an alternative sympathetic range table that is based on familiarity with the target. Otherwise core sorcery. 

Lyonesse has several that skip points, requiring more than one point to get to the next effect. It also has area which doesn’t scale linearly. 

the short of it, it’s built to be altered, and by no means has to scale linearly. It’s a framework for scaling 🙂

[Mugen]

12 hours ago, Raleel said:

This is incorrect for some shaping components. Distance is not linear - 1x pow in meters, then 5x, then 10x, then 50, then 100, and increases from there. Range 9 is 10000x the base range of touch.

🙂

Ah... It's been too long since I read Mongoose RuneQuest II. 😄

It seems I never read the table again since that time. 😅

12 hours ago, Raleel said:

 

🙂

(I'm not able to delete quotes and smileys on my phone, so I'm keeping those...) 🙂

Edited July 23, 2023 by Mugen

[Mugen]

On 7/22/2023 at 4:58 PM, Lloyd Dupont said:

Hah funnily enough I remembered Mythras wrong but RQ3 right! 😮

Anyway this spell being permanent, at the cost of "presence", or instantaneous sounds interesting... But it just rubs me wrong that one need presence to maintain a spell very far away... (as in the wizard polymorph the guy into a rabbit, the rabbit hop away, the wizard's presence maintain the rabbit polymorph from very far away, or cancel it from far away...)

Note Mythras has a way to make Permenanent spells with the Enchant spell. It reduces your MP maximum by the number of MP used (which means a minimum of 2, as you'd need to use Multispell to cast Enchant AND the spell).

[Atgxtg]

On 7/22/2023 at 10:58 AM, Lloyd Dupont said:

Hah funnily enough I remembered Mythras wrong but RQ3 right! 😮

Anyway this spell being permanent, at the cost of "presence", or instantaneous sounds interesting... But it just rubs me wrong that one need presence to maintain a spell very far away... (as in the wizard polymorph the guy into a rabbit, the rabbit hop away, the wizard's presence maintain the rabbit polymorph from very far away, or cancel it from far away...)

In RQ3 the sorcerer would only need to worry about the range when casting the spell, not when maintaining it. The doubling nature of duration, range, etc also means that the sorcoer can make a very long lasting spell without having to make a permanent spell. For instance they could turn someone into a frog for ten or twenty years, which is longer that the typical lifespan of frog and so would be permanent to the target of the spell.

 

The downside to this sort of thing, is that is is not very practical. For instance to do this the caster would need to cast a Shapechange (Human) to (Frog) spell plus a Diminish Size spell to reduce the target down to frog size, both at around Intensity 13 or so to work, preferably a bit higher for the Shapechage, so 26-30 magic points, then both would need to have the Duration extended by 19-20 magic points. So it would cost around 66-70 magic points to pull off, and take the caster several days to recover all the magic points. This is overlooking any Free INT limitations, skill rolls, or special devices required. For that sort of resources a sorcerer could put a 5 point damage boosting or damage absorption on three weapons or bits of armor. So Fairy Tale magic is possible, just not practical, unless a sorceoer is so expeirieced that they have power (well magic points) to burn.

If you throw in ritual magic and enchantments, the sorcerer gets even more options. It's possible to create an item with linking conditions that can do the effect automatically, and is self powered, but that requires time and permanent POW sacrifice. Still, a war boomerang that turns anyone within 5m of the target into toads for half an hour, could be worth it.

 

[Raleel]

9 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

In RQ3 the sorcerer would only need to worry about the range when casting the spell, not when maintaining it. The doubling nature of duration, range, etc also means that the sorcoer can make a very long lasting spell without having to make a permanent spell. For instance they could turn someone into a frog for ten or twenty years, which is longer that the typical lifespan of frog and so would be permanent to the target of the spell.

It is somewhat similar in Mythras, depending on the spell. Concentration spells require the target to be within the Range of the effects are active during concentration. Otherwise it has no impact once the spell is cast. 
 

the extended duration table gives similarly long results, extending to years at 10 points of shaping, decades at 11, and so on. 
 

tharnhabing been said, I would be a bit astonished if it worked out of the box for the OP. 

[Atgxtg]

17 hours ago, Raleel said:

It is somewhat similar in Mythras, depending on the spell. Concentration spells require the target to be within the Range of the effects are active during concentration. Otherwise it has no impact once the spell is cast. 
 

the extended duration table gives similarly long results, extending to years at 10 points of shaping, decades at 11, and so on. 

Sounds like Myhras sorcery might progress even faster than RQ3.

17 hours ago, Raleel said:

tharnhabing been said, I would be a bit astonished if it worked out of the box for the OP. 

Probably not. Based on previous posts I think just about any system is going to need to be tweaked to suit the OP's preferences. That's what makes this such a challenge. We are not the OP and don't game with the OP so we can only try to guess at what would be the best fit. Even the OP doesn't really know what he wants. He knows what results he wants but not necessarily the best game mechanics to accomplish those results. It's tricky for any GM. Sometimes what looks good in the planning stage doesn't work out so well in actual play. 

[Raleel]

18 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Sounds like Myhras sorcery might progress even faster than RQ3.

17 hours ago, Raleel said:

indeed it can. of course that scaling can be altered
 

 

19 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Probably not. Based on previous posts I think just about any system is going to need to be tweaked to suit the OP's preferences. That's what makes this such a challenge. We are not the OP and don't game with the OP so we can only try to guess at what would be the best fit. Even the OP doesn't really know what he wants. He knows what results he wants but not necessarily the best game mechanics to accomplish those results. It's tricky for any GM. Sometimes what looks good in the planning stage doesn't work out so well in actual play. 

ya, sounds like OP needs to wrestle the thoughts to the ground and decide some things. too many options, not enough cutting and pinning down. maybe not enough cosmology behind it guiding.

[Mugen]

14 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Sounds like Myhras sorcery might progress even faster than RQ3.

With the big limitation that you can't put more points in Shaping than your Shaping skill/10. If you put 11 points in Duration, you need a Shaping skill of 110%, and you can't put anything in Range, for instance. Among other things, protection from dispelling is not based on the spell's Intensity (based on the Invocation skill), but its Magnitude, which is a Shaping effect. A spell created to last for years that can be dispelled by a Folk Magic spell is a pity.

And, again, the values given for extended duration are not the standard values, which are linear.

Edited July 25, 2023 by Mugen

[Atgxtg]

19 hours ago, Raleel said:

indeed it can. of course that scaling can be altered

As it could in RQ3. Personally I think some sort of doubling progression would be best. Either x2 per MP or x2 per 2 MP or some such.

19 hours ago, Raleel said:

ya, sounds like OP needs to wrestle the thoughts to the ground and decide some things. too many options, not enough cutting and pinning down. maybe not enough cosmology behind it guiding.

Maybe. Or maybe he's got a idea of what he wants but isn't sure how to get it out of the BRP rules. Major rule system tweaking is tricky. As with most things it's far easier to make things worse or break them entirely than it is to improve them. 

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, Mugen said:

With the big limitation that you can't put more points in Shaping than your Shaping skill/10. If you put 11 points in Duration, you need a Shaping skill of 110%, and you can't put anything in Range, for instance.

THat's similiar to the Free INT limit in RQ3. And At least Shaping skill can be improved.

5 hours ago, Mugen said:

Among other things, protection from dispelling is not based on the spell's Intensity (based on the Invocation skill), but its Magnitude, which is a Shaping effect.A spell created to last for years that can be dispelled by a Folk Magic spell is a pity.

Maybe from an in play perspective. It might be good from a game mechanics perspective. Basically magic would be easier to destroy than to create, which tends to be true of most creations. 

5 hours ago, Mugen said:

And, again, the values given for extended duration are not the standard values, which are linear.

But could be easily altered by swapping out a table to get custom durations and such. Although the same could be done with RQ3.

[Lloyd Dupont]

Hi y'all, thanks for your feedback! 🙂

Since you took the time to reply you might be curious what I came up with so far .... Plus you might have more interesting comments 🙂

(Note this is all just untested idea I have on my own, not gonna start my campaign before a few month, ATM another player is the GM using paizo's starfinder rule, I am the only one of the bunch that staunchly refuse to GM D&D systems, anyway might have a clean first draft to share in a few weeks)

so, first and without much details, I came up with pleasing enough number for elementalism. Though this morning while driving I was struck by how Diablo spoiled me and firebolt is probably not really a "realistic" thing ..

then for spell duration I call up with 4 things. A permanence spell, that cost 1  permanent POW point to make another single spell permanent. Though it can be dispelled as easily as any other spell. Some magical item that can act as permanence spell (the POW is only consumed when creating the item). A "rank 3" spell that can make duration scale linearly 1mp - 1day, instead of the base 15 minutes.

for city spells, the cost need not be too precise since it's more story / NPC thing. The mp cost being so prohibitive (NO exponential power scaling) that only a whole college of wizard working for days can do it.... Yet I need to clarify it a bit to know which one can be used when. Plus I want hydropower, pyropower and mananode to be a thing, that can help the player -so they might need precise quantification-, and might speed up such spell casting...

[Atgxtg]

40 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Hi y'all, thanks for your feedback! 🙂

 

then for spell duration I call up with 4 things. A permanence spell, that cost 1  permanent POW point to make another single spell permanent.

That sounds interesting but might be a bit overpowered. A sorcerer could cast something like Damage Boosting 10 and spend 1 POW to make it permanent. With POW vs. POW rolls it's pretty easy to gain 1 POW back in an adventure or two. 

40 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Though it can be dispelled as easily as any other spell.

Will help somewhat, but since most spells "defend" with thier point value/Itensity, this might not be much of a vulnerability. For instace if someone has Protection 10 (or Damage Resistance 10) up as   as a permanent effect, it going to take a 10 magic point Dispel it (or something that can beat a 10 point spell on the resistance table, depending on what sort of dispel magic you are using).

40 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Some magical item that can act as permanence spell (the POW is only consumed when creating the item). A "rank 3" spell that can make duration scale linearly 1mp - 1day, instead of the base 15 minutes.

One idea you might want to consider is the one I threw out in another thread for a Star Wars RPG . Namely that spells could be kept up, but the magic points are locked up maintaining the spell, and the character doesn't start to recover them until the spell is dropped. So if someone has 12 POW and is keeping up a 6 point spell they would only have 6 magic points. If they drop the spell then they would recover 1 MP per 2 hours as usual. 

40 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

for city spells, the cost need not be too precise since it's more story / NPC thing. The mp cost being so prohibitive (NO exponential power scaling) that only a whole college of wizard working for days can do it....

Without some form of exponential scaling I don't think that is going to be possible. With a strictly linear formula you will have a hard time just keeping up with the STR and SIZ scales. For instance SIZ 16 is 100 kg, or approx 1000N or approximately 1000 watts or 1 kilowatt (at 1 watt= per newton-metre). If you assume 1 POW = 1 STR for lifting and moving objects, then by the SIZ table you need another 8 POW to double it (SIZ 24 =200 kg)not another 16. 

 

If you go strictly linear then what will happen is that casters will reach a point of diminishing returns as it won't be worth the POW for an extra point of STR. With a linear progression casters would probably be more likely to make multiple smaller spells than combine their engines towards one big spell, as the smaller spells would be easier,f aster and give the same benefit. For instance, with a linear progression, it would be quicker, easier, less risky,etc. to make four 10 Magic point spells than it would be to make one 40 point spell.  

40 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

 

Yet I need to clarify it a bit to know which one can be used when. Plus I want hydropower, pyropower and mananode to be a thing, that can help the player -so they might need precise quantification-, and might speed up such spell casting...

My advice would be to use the SIZ table, specially the one from Superworld (it is the same one used in BRP except that it doubles below SIZ 8 and  keeps doubling above SIZ 88). Then you can use real world units like kilograms and watts (as I did above, at 10 watts per kilogram)to work out the game stats for you magical damns and what not, as it would handle any value and scale to infinity.

[Lloyd Dupont]

6 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

That sounds interesting but might be a bit overpowered. A sorcerer could cast something like Damage Boosting 10 and spend 1 POW to make it permanent. With POW vs. POW rolls it's pretty easy to gain 1 POW back in an adventure or two. 

Well... In that specific case... my personal feeling is that it is Protection and Enhance damage that are too strong and I nerfed them. They both go only from 1 to 5 as per spell rank (i.e. it's quite hard to learn the rank 5 version) and the intensity of the spell in that case only increase duration or number of items that can be enhanced.

Now, to proactively retort to possible concerns about characters not doing enough damage (not sure it is a real concern in BRP, but let say it is), there are combat perks (Perks and spell both use INT slot, perk often requires some skills at 70% to acquire) that can 1. increase weapon damage 1 dice step (i.e. D8 => D10), 2. do more powerful melee attack (+d6) at the cost of 3FP (or 2, or 1, still undecided)

 

6 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

One idea you might want to consider is the one I threw out in another thread for a Star Wars RPG . Namely that spells could be kept up, but the magic points are locked up maintaining the spell, and the character doesn't start to recover them until the spell is dropped. So if someone has 12 POW and is keeping up a 6 point spell they would only have 6 magic points. If they drop the spell then they would recover 1 MP per 2 hours as usual. 

This idea did also cross my mind. And I quite like it. But I feel as if it doesn't quite make sense to make a spell on someone else permanent. Although, as I thought about a reply, perhaps it could lock the willing target own MP to achieve that?

 

6 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Without some form of exponential scaling I don't think that is going to be possible. With a strictly linear formula you will have a hard time just keeping up with the STR and SIZ scales. For instance SIZ 16 is 100 kg, or approx 1000N or approximately 1000 watts or 1 kilowatt (at 1 watt= per newton-metre). If you assume 1 POW = 1 STR for lifting and moving objects, then by the SIZ table you need another 8 POW to double it (SIZ 24 =200 kg)not another 16.

Well... there is a bit of powering up happening. And also be inspired by Master of Magic spell... Some Town spell (but not all mind you) have a relatively modest and quite diffuse effect (for example: increase productivity leading to double tax revenue), so I ballparked the spells to 1MP per 1~10 inhabitants.
For some more impactful spell, such as antiteleport shield, firewall, etc... one could argue it need not pay for the full area, but with some preparation / engineering / enchanting (using lots "manarod" placed strategically in the town) one only need to pay (linearly) for the perimeter, not the area..... so perfectly affordable at linear cost to a fulltime of college of wizard dipping in fire and hydro power or a mananode to boost, I reckon (more math to come on my napkin).

Though, ahem, having a flying city, even if temporarily (it's a MoM spell, that would look nice here)... looks difficult with the fuzzy costing constraints I have in my mind.

Perhaps mananodes provide large mana boost (for such spell as a flying city)? I would have to make them noticeably different though, not sure how to Justify them... lore and geography wise though.

Edited July 26, 2023 by Lloyd Dupont