Economy of Regrow Limbs and Organs - suitable approaches

[hkokko]

Now that my players have reached a large city which has a bigger Chalana Arroy temple I would like to engage the thinking power of the tribe:

What have you used as approaches for deciding how the character can gain access to the priestess who could regrow the limb. 

I would like it to not be automatic in the fashion of return to city, go to Chalana Arroy temple, give money, limb is back. 
 

There are only so many priestesses who have the spell, they can do only so many of regrow limbs (and other healing spells) per day. They gain their power back in so many weeks, seasons? There might be many customers of various priorities who like to be healed quickly. 

How many applications of all rune spells anyway would be available for a priestess to use in a season or a week.

What would be the mythically appropriate sacrifices for Chalana Arroy and ways to affect the priority.

 

 

 

 

[JRE]

I will use rules to extrapolate world circumstances. So this is all YGWV.

Chalana Arroy is very interesting because the cult gives different spells to different associates, which for me represents what their shrines in the associate temples typically teach. In your case what is interesting is that they teach Regrow Limb to Issaries, so it will not be hard to find a Merchant that can regrow limbs for coin, and I would go as far as saying that as Regrow Limb is not usually applied to people in danger of immediate death (or actually dead, like Ressurrection), most of the Regrown Limbs will be agreements for cash or services with an Issaries priest. For Chalana Arroy the best option is just before holy days, as priests will be using up any magic left in non-critical recipients. On the other hand, it will be almost impossible to get a White Lady to use Regrow Limb normally, as they will be keeping the magic for potential life threatening cases, specially if you are a known killer.

Of course if you are the clan's champion or a ring member you will usually get your regrown limb automatically just before the seasonal holy day, or during the Sacred Time as part of your position.

The high holy day is a week during the Sacred Time, so I would allow two recovery rolls then, which means most non-urgent healings will be performed during that week, as part of the Sacred Time celebrations. Otherwise you will have five seasonal holy days and the holy days of associates. That means that actual recovery will depend on how many associate cults are in town, but minimum two and possibly four, so an extra 4D6+4 Rune points per season. There are no minor holy days listed, though I would allow them in great temples that are pilgrimage centers, Wilddays every week. That means that Firedays at the Great Hospital in Nochet are the days when all non urgent patients have an opportunity to receive spells.

I play most NPC priests with 10 rune points, initiates living at the temple with 5, and high priestesses with 16 (CHA). Normal wear and tear of people in their community will require  all of that magic, so the variable amount is actually what they can get from associates, so in most cases 2D6+2 points per season, and a bit easier during Sacred Time, between the two full recoveries, which is when you will get most of the non-Issaries regrown limbs. In most towns the best option would be Fireday in Fertility week, as they may have recovered magic at Ernalda's seasonal holy day, and have to spend them (always assuming full recovery) before the Wildday.

As for exchange, I would use quarter the ransom value as a guide, decreased if well liked by the community and maybe even waived if they have made a service (in advance) to the White Lady. Issaries will start similar but can be negotiated in many different ways, including the possibility to spell trade for it.

[JRE]

In most cases I consider the magical economy requires all the Runepoints of a particular temple, as if the needs are higher, they will bring on more priests, and if they have an excess, the priests will be moved to where they are needed. This is an equilibrium situation, so it is likely you may have an excess or defect, if the situation is not the normal one. That means any special adventurer needs will be extraordinary and Rune magic will not be routinely available.

As for donation gifts, I would play anything that helps to heal, such as herbs and medicines, or that help any other works of the temple, such as food and furniture for an orphanage, instruction in allowed spells and skills. I always play that they appreciate the symbology of having a proud rune level of other cult cleaning up the hospital and attending the sick, as thir free time is so scarce, so I count that kind of efforts double. Generally no services, as many of those have a death toll associated. No meat, no war booty.

I still think they would be better off with a merchant.

[Squaredeal Sten]

IMHO, Cities with a Chalana Arroy temple (and not every city has one)  should be places where it is easy to get CA magic. Why?  Ernalda is an associated cult, is next door, has minor holy days every Clayday, and is another source of healing.  As pointed out above so is the Issaries group at the market. Whose Minor H.D. is Wildday.    So there should ordinarily be plenty of rune spell healing available.  CA should have the Rune points for their  specialized magic.  Unless there has just been a battle in the area..

Since it seems you want to make losing a limb a more serious event, how about introducing an epidemic to suck up CA rune points and increase waiting time?  That can be an adventure of its own.

But note that CA wiil normally have high POW, since every time they defeat a disease spirit they get a POW boost.  

What should give your adventurers pause is the cost, the expectation that they will give a large proportion of their assets in return for the healing.  If they do not do that then they have a long wait.  CA won't turn them away but every stickpicker will be taken care of first. While the cheap Adventurer sits In the hospital.  

Then of course read te spell. Regrowing a limb will not be instant if I recall correcty.

[hkokko]

Thank you for good thoughts about the subject. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

it is an interesting question, and you will not find one answer as so many MGF vary 😛

so it depends a lot on you and your player.

 

Personaly, it is hard to obtain a rune spell. We have the price from the rule but not the availability

Like @JRE I consider that temples are organized (number of people, of rp, etc...) to manage their community. So depending of the day there is such availability or not (just after a replenish worship ceremony, there are 1 or 2 spells available, after one or two weeks, there are maybe 1 rp or not)

From a gameplay perspective, I consider it is too easy if any wound can be healed without any issue (and a lot of spells can rebuild the body, even spirit magic so...).

But that's my taste. And as rq fights are very violent, I understand that people would like to not see their character destroyed just because a roll.

So I manage it differently, if you want to be healed (or any spell from npc), you have to do some effort (aka a scenario 😛 ) Sometimes that is a mission (bring me back  x or y then I will answer you request), sometimes it is a quest (I can't do this, but I know someone who are able to do it and maybe more) or a mix (I can't do this, but I know someone who are are able to do it but she will probably require something)

 

Of course if you pcs are already very powerfull, a spell they saw as a "challenge" when they are young, is now just a standard :

if you are a runelord or priest or equivalent, of course someone will cast the spell you need without any request, if it is not too important (no you don't have access to 5 "free" sever spirit, even if you are the king)

 

But now,  the difficulty is different, elsewhere (there is no temple where you can find a friendly CA priest in the heroplan... maybe chalana... somewhere, but not a lot of locations, and probably noone in the pattern of the quest they follow)

Edited August 4, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[soltakss]

On 8/4/2023 at 7:54 AM, hkokko said:

Now that my players have reached a large city which has a bigger Chalana Arroy temple I would like to engage the thinking power of the tribe:

What have you used as approaches for deciding how the character can gain access to the priestess who could regrow the limb. 

I would like it to not be automatic in the fashion of return to city, go to Chalana Arroy temple, give money, limb is back. 

My view is that GMs should only restrict this if they want to mess with their Players.

Regrow Limb is a spell that many Chalana Arroy cultists take, it doesn't have to be a Priestess. I imagine that many Chalana Arroy Initiates take Regrow Limb and use their Rune Points as specialised healers for that purpose. If you have a hundred Initiates in a Temple and three Priestesses, the Initiates could cast regrow Limb hundreds of times without even asking a priestess.

 

[Akhôrahil]

By the way, does anyone else think that Heal Body maybe shouldn’t regrow limbs, or at least not instantly? It pretty much completely supercedes Regrow Limb, being instant. I’m sure a substantial percentage of Ernaldan have it too, making CA a lot less important for anything but really specialist healing - in a small village, it seems very likely that some farm-wife could do most of the healing a CA hospital can provide.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[JRE]

My own interpretation is that Heal Body works while you are missing Hit points, that is, the wound is still fresh. If you have healed with lower magic or naturally, then Heal Body does not work to recover the limb, and it is necessary to use a more specialized magic. To go even further, I consider Heal Body uses your own self image as template. So if you have a stump from an old wound, someone cuts off the rest of your arm, and you get Heal body cast on you, you regenerate up to the stump, but not more, as your body self image includes the mutilated limb.

That opens the dilemma. Should I use Heal Wound or Spirit magic Heal, so I cannot die, but seal the limb loss in? Or should I wait till someone with Heal Body casts it on me, but focing me not to heal before the opportunity comes? Will there be a Heal body available before I start healing naturally?

The body self image magical effect is also why once set in, healing does not erase tattoos or scarification, or you lose magical prosthesis such as magic organs, enchanted ivory eyes or animated iron arms. A regrown limb, however, will lack all of those markings or make you lose the magical aid.

 

[JRE]

Also, the true specialties of CA are Ressurrection and Curing Diseases, and her true enemies are not wounds, but Death and Disease, Humakt and Mallia.

Heal body for me it the boundless fertility of the Earth manifesting in people, making them new. She can make the same by focusing her mastery of life, but it is instinctive for Earth deities with Fertility.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

So if you have a stump from an old wound, someone cuts off the rest of your arm, and you get Heal body cast on you, you regenerate up to the stump, but not more, as your body self image includes the mutilated limb.

This is why the phantom limb can be your friend — keep reaching for stuff with that hand that isn’t there, people. Maybe Trickster has a spell for it.

1 hour ago, JRE said:

Heal Body uses your own self image as template … [this is] why once set in, healing does not erase tattoos or scarification

But not for everything, I hope: I don’t want the inside of my body repaired according to my own self-image. If I have a tattoo on my back I have never seen, does heal body restore it? If I suffer from a delusional form of BDD (dysmorphia), what happens? If Charles VI is subjected to Heal Body, does some or all of him turn to glass?

Your adoring public demands answers!

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EDIT: Isn’t the tediously meta reason that tattoos come back that they might be magically significant/powerful, and players would be upset if they didn’t?

Edited August 7, 2023 by mfbrandi
fourth wall breaking

[Akhôrahil]

19 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

But not for everything, I hope: I don’t want the inside of my body repaired according to my own self-image. If I have a tattoo on my back I have never seen, does heal body restore it? If I suffer from a delusional form of BDD (dysmorphia), what happens? If Charles VI is subjected to Heal Body, does some or all of him turn to glass?

Your adoring public demands answers!

Power-gamer move: have your trickster convince you that you're extremely attractive and muscular, and then cast Heal Body in order to reshape your body accordingly.

[JRE]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

This is why the phantom limb can be your friend — keep reaching for stuff with that hand that isn’t there, people. Maybe Trickster has a spell for it.

But not for everything, I hope: I don’t want the inside of my body repaired according to my own self-image. If I have a tattoo on my back I have never seen, does heal body restore it? If I suffer from a delusional form of BDD (dysmorphia), what happens? If Charles VI is subjected to Heal Body, does some or all of him turn to glass?

Your adoring public demands answers!

—————————————

EDIT: Isn’t the tediously meta reason that tattoos come back that they might be magically significant/powerful, and players would be upset if they didn’t?

I use the body's self image, not yours. So your body knows what is on your back, even if you do not, and Lie will not affect it. Of course, if you think it will be more fun the other way, it is your Glorantha. But I started this first about whether tattoos are wounds or not, then scars (specially concerned about losing a PC's hard earned scarring), and that by serendipity brought the reason why Regrow Limb has its place. Things like magical artificial eyes and iron arms just fit in as well.

[Akhôrahil]

38 minutes ago, JRE said:

I use the body's self image, not yours. 

Isn't this exactly the same thing as restoring damage and injuries? That is, we get the same outcome if we just argue that damage is healed, rather than posit the body having a self-image (how does that even work? what's the "image" the mere body has?)

[JRE]

The difference for me is in case you have a magical organ implanted, or a magical false eye (anyone remembers Barran), or even scars and tattoos, that you do not wish to lose. And secondarily to explain why there is interest in a 2 point spell that may take a year to recover a lost limb, when there is a more widespread 3 point spell that recovers limbs instantly.

A spell should not have intelligence to decide what you want healed and what not, and if youare unconscious and bleeding out, you cannot direct it either, but I do not expect Aruzban Ironarm to be frightened that someone casts Heal Body on him and lose his namesake.  Or a Danfive Xaroni losing his brands and marks of punishment. So that is my solution. Your body just returns to the state when it had all wounds , marks, scars or implanted magics healed, even if some portion is missing. That becomes the baseline. On the other hand, it allows, if you lose a big chunk of you, the regenerated part from Heal Body will still have your scars and tattoos, so if you cut a finger as a sign of DX penance or to show repentance to the Lanbril kingpin, they will not suddenly return.

It is related to how you look in the Hero Plane, if you do not go in body. You are still yourself without a body. That is the body image.

YGMV, but I assume nobody uses Regrow Limb in that case.