Hero Cult vs Ancester Worship ?

[Agentorange]

Simple question is worshipping  a Hero Cult a form of ancester worship if the hero also happens to be an ancester ? . If the hero is an ancester could you worship in a theistic fashion and   in the traditional Daka Fal  axis mundi/ summon ancester spirit fashion ?

[David Scott]

53 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

Simple question is worshipping a Hero Cult a form of ancester worship if the hero also happens to be an ancester ? . If the hero is an ancester could you worship in a theistic fashion and  in the traditional Daka Fal  axis mundi/ summon ancester spirit fashion ?

See the ancestor cult examples in Lightbringers, Daka Fal, page 84). If they have an established ancestor cult (with shaman-priests), then yes you could join as an initiate. You'd get the single Rune spell if they give one as well. I'd say you can do one or the other, as if there's as established ancestor cult, there won't be a hero cult. Another alternative is to worship your ancestor as a spirit cult, through a shaman who leads that spirit cult.

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

See the ancestor cult examples in Lightbringers, Daka Fal, page 84).

I am so excited that we are referencing pages from the Cults books now, that is so cool.

 

[Agentorange]

13 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I am so excited that we are referencing pages from the Cults books now, that is so cool.

 

Which is great unless you don't own them yet 😄

[soltakss]

3 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

Which is great unless you don't own them yet 😄

I don't own them, yet, but I will. 

[Agentorange]

13 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I don't own them, yet, but I will. 

me too - at some point. probably the earth goddesses one first.

 

[Akhôrahil]

On 8/13/2023 at 2:34 PM, Agentorange said:

Simple question is worshipping  a Hero Cult a form of ancester worship if the hero also happens to be an ancester ? . If the hero is an ancester could you worship in a theistic fashion and   in the traditional Daka Fal  axis mundi/ summon ancester spirit fashion ?

Yes and no. I would argue that while heroes and even gods may be among your ancestors and could well be worshiped as such, they are not available for the various Ancestor-related rune spells.

For instance, my PCs have Yinkin as their ancestor. I would argue that they would include Yinkin in their ancestor worship, and could set up an ancestor-style cult of Yinkin, but don't normally gain any access to Yinkin magics this way. I think heroes are also one step up from big-A Ancestors that the Daka Fal rune magic can work with.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[JRE]

I would say that unless the Hero was a Daka Fal worshipper, they had other priorities besides their family. As well, depending on how they apotheosized, they may well be fixed in the Hero plane and not available anywhere else. Finally, IMG, a true Hero, having achieved control of the Mastery Rune, cannot be compelled by magics such as Daka Fal’s. 

So a Hero may return to give an omen or even advice to their descendants, but they cannot be compelled, except by the one they used as the path to herodom. So Orlanth can command or bring forth Alakoring Dragonbreaker, but Daka Fal cannot, because he avoided his judgement, being taken to Orlanth’s longhouse upon his death. 

You could start an Alakoring Hero cult if you can contact him, but I would limit it to Orlanthi even if you use a shaman to contact him. He was so tightly wound with Orlanth, some of his feats have become Orlanth’s, that he is subsumed into Orlanth. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 8/13/2023 at 2:34 PM, Agentorange said:

Simple question is worshipping  a Hero Cult a form of ancester worship if the hero also happens to be an ancester ? . If the hero is an ancester could you worship in a theistic fashion and   in the traditional Daka Fal  axis mundi/ summon ancester spirit fashion ?

I may misunderstand your question so apologies, if I m far from your idea 😛

 

I differentiate both. And identify a third option, for any person who was able to do great feat, great enough to be remembered and "worshipped".

 

Let's say hundreds years ago Loco the hunter, initiate of  foundchild, succeed to hunt a magical / divine prey and was able to discover some new magical ability (for example "dark walk" spell).

Let's say that his name was praised by his mates, then his clan and all the region started to worship him as a hero of foundchild.

We are now.

 

Cult ancestor

Of course his heirs, family, bloodline or maybe even clan, remember him as an ancestor.

If they follow the cult of ancestors, they can summon him, and he will be here, able to cast the dark walk spell

They can cast "incarnate ancestor", and he will be there, with all his abilities. But the "now"  heirs, the worshipers of  the ancestor, cannot, by themselves learn dark walk and use it.

 

Hero subcult of a god

Then we are now, the cult of foundchild has integrated Loco as one of his hero. And localy (in other far lands, they don't know Loco) foundchild initiates can join the subcult and learn dark walk. They don't have to have Loco as an ancestor, they see Loco as a member of Foundchild company.

 

Spirit cult

that's the third option: Loco is worshipped by at least one shaman, who manages a cult for him. Of course Loco is not a great god, so there is only one or two sacred places with shrines in the world. But anyone who joins this spirit cult can learn Dark walk. No need to have Loco as ancestor, no need to be initiate to Foundchild. You just need to find the local cult (or to create it if you are shaman, so maybe heroquest to find Loco, and/or to help the spirit of Loco to be strong enough to "become" a source of power/worship) , be accepted and initiated.

 

Now if you have Loco as your ancestor and be initiate of Foundchild, you have both access to Loco (summon/incarnate your ancestor and learn the spell from the Foundchild's cult)

And probably (but not required) the first circle of the spirit cult was made by one of his heir. Who knows Loco if not his family ?

Edited August 15, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild