Glorantha In FATE Core?

[ZedAlpha]

So one of my game groups--the one I've blogged about here, who did the Harrek Must Die! adventure and started a very short, aborted Pendragon game--has finally fallen apart completely. Don't really want to go into it, but there was a big argument last year followed by a reconciliation, then a few smaller arguments this year, and then real life has gotten in the way of us meeting up again in person or online.

But. One of my other groups has recently gotten enthusiastic about Glorantha through playing Six Ages at my recommendation, and now want to do some roleplaying in Glorantha. There's just one problem: I really cannot grok all the charts and cross-referenced crunch of RuneQuest, and I've become pretty burned out on HeroQuest. I think I want to try a game using FATE Core as the rules system. For those who don't know, FATE is a cinematic-styled universal system that relies on generating and exploiting aspects of the narrative to push player action and GM reaction forward. It's fast-moving, it's very much a collaborative storytelling game, and I think it'd fit this group in particular really well.

However, I'm not sure how I'd model all of Glorantha's famed granularity (specifically all the dang runes and cults and how they interact) in that system.

If anyone here's familiar with FATE, do you have any ideas? I was wondering if I'd have to write a bunch of new Stunts to represent different Runic/Cultic/Spirit-y abilities, or if merely leaving Rune affinities as Aspects that could be tagged in-game would be enough, or if I should make Runes skills that could be used for in-game actions?

I don't know, it's compelling but I'm kind of overwhelmed. Help would be appreciated, and I'm happy to explain FATE concepts if need be.

[Akhôrahil]

Just dump all the fiddly bits and recreate the Aspects and Stunts from the lore. Make sure to get HeroQuest: Glorantha - HeroQuest 2 and FATE are fairly similar games, and you can borrow a lot about the free-form abilities from there. Don't say that some Orlanthi has Lightning, Warp Wind and Rain - given them a "Worshiper of Orlanth the Storm God" aspect, or a "Thunder Magic" stunt. If you want to fiddle with the rules some more, create new "skills"  for the Runes as you suggest, and then PCs can pick up some of them as well as learn new ones (but make them optional - there's no need to have rating in all runes, just the important ones, if those). It depends a bit on what kind of game you want. An extreme variant might replace all the regular skills with just the full set of Runes, and always just checking against runes as in John Wick's Glorantha hack (if I understood that correctly).

Basically, just approach it from the FATE angle, instead of the RuneQuest one. FATE is very good at turning worldbuilding into characters. Get rid of all the RQ granularity - it has no place in a FATE game, and the very fixed and defined magic of RQ isn't necessarily the best model for Glorantha in the first place. I don't think you need to even reference the RQ ruleset in order to make a FATE version.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[ZedAlpha]

Yeah, I should probably talk to a friend of mine that's been running the Secret of Cats FATE game I'm a part of and learn how to write stunts. That's a good idea. Thanks!

[Akhôrahil]

Let's try Vasana, for instance, in FATE Core which is the ruleset I'm familiar with.

High Concept: Veteran Vingan Cavalrywoman
Problem: Not in the pregen, so we make something up. Maybe Enemy of the Lunar Empire?
Aspect: My cavalry bison, Molon (by having Molon both as an Aspect and a Stunt, you secure it to the character)
Aspect: Strong in the Storm (basically, the Air Rune)
Aspect: Honor, Country, Tribe! (we sneak in a mix of Passions and relationships this way, as well as hand the GM tools to push you with)

Stunt: Molon, cavalry bison (quickly stat up Molon as a follower - Physique is very likely the strongest FATE Core skill here)
Stunt: Thunder Magic (You can use Will to create suitable weather-related magical effects (and you have an Aspect to back it up))
Stunt: Mounted Pursuit (+2 to Ride when you're pursuing someone while mounted) 
Stunt: Powerful charge (+2 to Ride rolls made to create an advantage in combat by charging in a straight line)
Stunt: Fearless! (+2 to defend against Provoke attacks specifically related to intimidation and fear (and the GM should usually allow you to improve this further by invoking your high concept))

And so on. I assumed a Ride skill will be replacing Drive (or perhaps added to it, if you want a skill to drive chariots and wagons). Vasana has Fight, Ride and Will as her top skills.

Note that it's not necessarily Will that's used for magic - a sorcerer or even just a Lhankoring would likely use Lore instead, and a shaman might even use Contacts along with an aspect to interact with spirits. 

 

 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Ian Absentia]

20 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Just dump all the fiddly bits and recreate the Aspects and Stunts from the lore. Make sure to get HeroQuest: Glorantha...

Quoted for emphasis, because I don't know that I have anything to add to Akhôrahil's advice except appreciation.  The idea of playing a completely Runic game is wildly appealing, if daunting -- like Pendragon, players would be simulating myths and stories about their characters' behavior rather than the physical reality of their actions.  So, hmm...maybe have a look at David Dunham's PenDragon Pass notes.  Not FATE, but walking another similar path along with HQG.

https://www.pensee.com/dunham/pdp.html

!i!

 

[Akhôrahil]

22 minutes ago, ZedAlpha said:

Yeah, I should probably talk to a friend of mine that's been running the Secret of Cats FATE game I'm a part of and learn how to write stunts. That's a good idea. Thanks!

Crafting good aspects is definitely also a skill. My favorite ever is probably Second-best Swordsman In the World. 🙂

Edited August 29, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[ZedAlpha]

I love making weird aspects. In the aforementioned Cats game I'm playing a big ol' Maine Coon whose High Concept is Ginormous "Rottweiller" Namer, since he was adopted by and raised by dogs. I like coming up with relevant aspects in game, and I'm looking forward to coming up with some for Glorantha.

 

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

The idea of playing a completely Runic game is wildly appealing, if daunting

18 skills in FATE Core, 20 Runes in RQG. Seems like it could work to replace them, if you have player buy-in for that kind of thing (you don't roll Ride, you roll Mobility; you don't roll Broadsword, you roll Death - and you use aspects and stunts to be good at specific things). It will give things an instantly magical feel.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[ZedAlpha]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

18 skills in FATE Core, 20 Runes in RQG. Seems like it could work to replace them, if you have player buy-in for that kind of thing (you don't roll Ride, you roll Mobility; you don't roll Broadsword, you roll Death - and you use aspects and stunts to be good at specific things). It will give things an instantly magical feel.

That would be super awesome and far too much work with this group, I think. I might pitch it, but I might just keep the original skills, but add runes as additional magical skills, with stunts that let the players replace their mundane skills with the runic skills in certain circumstances. To go with the Vasana example above, she could have the Fight, Ride, and Air Rune skills as her highest skills (let's say +4, +3, and +3 respectively as a hypothetical starting character), and the Thunder Magic stunt could read:

"Spend a Fate Point to use your Air Rune in place of any relevant skill to Overcome, Attack, or Create an Aspect related to channeling the magic of Orlanth Thunderous and the Storm."

 

Or something like that. Come to think of it that's a lot closer to how Secret of Cats runs its magic, and that's what I'm already really familiar with.

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, ZedAlpha said:

That would be super awesome and far too much work with this group, I think. I might pitch it, but I might just keep the original skills, but add runes as additional magical skills, with stunts that let the players replace their mundane skills with the runic skills in certain circumstances. To go with the Vasana example above, she could have the Fight, Ride, and Air Rune skills as her highest skills (let's say +4, +3, and +3 respectively as a hypothetical starting character), and the Thunder Magic stunt could read:

"Spend a Fate Point to use your Air Rune in place of any relevant skill to Overcome, Attack, or Create an Aspect related to channeling the magic of Orlanth Thunderous and the Storm."

 

Or something like that. Come to think of it that's a lot closer to how Secret of Cats runs its magic, and that's what I'm already really familiar with.

FATE is so toolbox:y that it will probably work best to pick a style and approach you're used to and apply that.

Cat powers might be immediately applicable to Yinkin worshipers. 🙂

[ZedAlpha]

In practice, that'd mean that if Vasana was fighting Lunars at the battle of the ford, she might spend a Fate point to use Thunder Magic so she can use Air instead of Provoke to scare off some Lunars from attacking a wounded comrade, giving him a chance to get pulled to safety where the healers can get at him. Narratively, Vasana's player might say that Vasana summoned forth a clap of thunder to stun the Lunars and frighten off their horses if she rolls well enough, or something.

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

....Cat powers might be immediately applicable to Yinkin worshipers. 🙂

also, lol

But anyway, that'd give her a chance to use Strong In The Storm to spend Fate points to shore up or reroll failed or bad Air, Motion, Mastery, Death, etc. runic checks that'd be appropriate to the fiction at hand. I do like the idea of coming up with some specific runic Stunts that would be tied to the Rune skills. Just got to think of some...

Edited August 29, 2023 by ZedAlpha

[Akhôrahil]

A strong part of FATE is that it's easy to craft what the player is looking for. Let's say the player doesn't want to have to improvise thunder magic, and only wants to be able to attack with lightning. Now you could instead create a stunt "Lightning" that allows the PC to once per scene use Will for a ranged attack - perfectly simple and straightforward. Perhaps the PC even carries one of those metal lightning bolts Orlanth is frequently depicted with these days?  

[ZedAlpha]

Right. Okay. so this is doable, I should definitely talk to my FATE GM for assistance setting up the campaign, and definitely save up some money to get the various glorantha sourcebooks.

Next step is to figure out where and when the campaign is set. I've got a few ideas, but those would be separate threads...

[Mameluco]

I'm currently running a 11 Lights using Fate Condensed. Here is the link to my rules notes.

2 caveats, English isn't my first language, and these notes are a living document as we tweak things to fit our tastes and needs.

Enjoy.

[AndreasDavour]

You might want to re-consider HQ/QW if you are thinking of Fate. They are not that different conceptually. But, let's talk Fate.

So, I think you probably don't want to add too much extra game mechnics. If you are thinking about using stunts for magic, for example, you have to consider if the standard three stunts are enough for you. Either you step up the abstraction ladder and maybe use the runes instead, or you use whatever mechanics you already have, like Aspects. I'd suggest the latter. Let me talk through how I would do it.

I'd probably say you should all have a High Concept and a Trouble as per Fate Core, and then I'd say that if not part of your High Concept, you have a mandated Cult and a mandated Culture Aspects. You probably then will use your Cult Aspect and a skill to do common magic for a lay member, and a initiate or a devotee spend some of their Stunts (if their High Concept allow it) on specific magic effects. You can then narratively decide how powerful magical effects a lay member or initiate can do by just boosting (common understanding of the term, not the Fate game mechanic) your skills with the Cult Aspect. Maybe limit an initiate to one magic stunt, or do it all according to they story.

When a devotee Create an Advantage and they act out their cults belief and mythic stories as to hero form, you have an excellent opportunity for a Scene Aspect.

I think Fate Core could work well in Glorantha that way. Oh, yeah, you might want to rename some of the skills...

[ZedAlpha]

Those are absolutely good ideas. I was thinking about mandating that High Concept include the culture, and make the Cult/Shamanic tradition/Sorcery school (or whatever the term is) a separate aspect that they can have, only mandated if they didn't put it in the High Concept.

I'm still leaning towards runic affinities being Skills, but keeping it simple like you mentioned is very appealing...I'll have to think about it. Thanks!

[Mameluco]

I iterate a lot on my Fate game, and the first drafts use runes as skills. Sadly, my players couldn't grok what to do with them, and also they had issues with free-form magic. So, I borrowed the idea of mantles from Dresden Files Accelerated for the initiation. Except I made the mantle an extra stunt every player must take. 

In summary, all my players have something like 

Initiate of [Deity] - It gives them access to 1 of the Rune Affinities of their god. If the player wants to have a stronger connection with their god, they can use an aspect for that.

Extra rune affinity - Allows the player to take another Rune Affinity.

These are basically, magic domain from High Fantasy Magic.

[ZedAlpha]

Oh right, Dresden Files! That's also a great idea, I should look into that too.

[EpicureanDM]

I've got a similar project underway, but I chose Cortex rather than Fate as the system. 

Cortex provides the same general feel at the table as Fate, but has a lot more systemic granularity thanks to its intentions as a toolkit system. The whole point of Cortex is to build the game using its components, which is the project you've undertaken. For someone who is familiar with RuneQuest and wants to capture, as you say, Glorantha's famed granularity, Cortex's depth and modularity work to your advantage. For example, I've settled on using Attributes and Runes as the primary components of dice pools. I thought about using Cortex's Skills element since that would mirror RQ's Attributes + Skills design, but figured that Runes were a better thematic fit for Glorantha. The biggest advantage of using Cortex has been using different components to define different sorts of magic. So Rune Magic, Spirit Magic, and Sorcery will all use slightly different rules just like they do in RQ. 

I'm trying to match the rules granularity of RQ with the better sensibility that for Glorantha that Heroquest provides. I usually start by asking myself whether I can translate a piece of RQ design into Cortex's terms, but filtered through the ways that Heroquest's designers did this first. The most important thing has been deferring to Heroquest ideas and principles when I've struggled in the RQ -> Cortex conversion. That's why I chose Attributes + Runes rather than Attributes + Skills, for example. The design spirit animating Heroquest's approach to Glorantha is a better natural fit for Cortex. My approach is a little unique in that I'm trying to use as much of Cortex's rules as I can, so I'm getting a bit exotic. You could easily make your life much simpler by using fewer Cortex components in your design, as the game's own designers encourage you to do when building in Cortex.

[ZedAlpha]

see, I never really had a good experience with Cortex when I tried the Firefly RPG, but I'd love to hear more about how this one goes.

[EpicureanDM]

I've played RQ3, RQG, Heroquest, Fate, and Cortex. Like you, I want to play a Gloranthan game that's a little different from its official game systems: RQ and Heroquest. Fate's design and pattern of play is too close to Heroquest to feel like enough of a break from it. You can see that in some of the responses here. Cortex's design provides a little more mechanical traction and depth than Heroquest or Fate. You said in your original post that you were burned out on HQ and Fate seems like you'd be playing the same way with different rules. So I suggested Cortex, which shares the same feel as HQ and Fate, but plays differently enough that it could feel new.

The current version, Cortex Prime, incorporates lessons learned from Cortex games published after Firefly. Maybe it would be more palatable to you. Cortex Prime requires you to build a custom set of rules from the pieces it gives you. That's what's going on in this thread. Many people bounce off of Cortex Prime because they aren't in the mood to put together a custom set of rules. You seem up for that, so Cortex Prime might be more interesting to you. In figuring out what pieces you want to use, you'll understand how the game works a little better. (As well as you can from reading it instead of playing it, anyway.) By identifying the parts of Firefly that survived into Prime and choosing different parts, you might have a better experience.

I found translating different RQ rules and HQ concepts into Cortex gave me a very good grasp of Cortex, which parts of it I wanted to use, and which I needed to discard in order to keep the rules feeling like Cortex. 

[ZedAlpha]

I'm not burned out on Fate, I like Fate. I might give this a shot, but for now I think I'll stick with Fate. THanks for the suggestion, though.

[alakoring]

Although I never finished the design, I’ve played around with the idea that you’d have a skill frustum (have two skills at 4, three at 3, etc.), and runic affinities would be skills. The idea is to capture the idea that some people are strong in a rune.

You can use any runic affinity to create advantages, subject to the powers of the rune. You could use the Fire Rune to create a Fireblade on your sword, but it’s not likely to be able to help a ship to outrun a typhoon.

Runes you share with your deity are divine runes. You can use these to overcome obstacles or attack, consistent with the scope of your god’s power, and subject to any restrictions that the god himself has (for example, Storm Bull initiates can’t use the Air Rune to cast lightning or thunder). To be an initiate, you’d need one of your deity’s runes at 2 or better. It would also be one of your aspects (such as Lhankor Mhy Librarian).

Your divine runes also act as aspects. An initiate of Elmal can use the Fire Rune to create an advantage like Beacon of Honesty when trying to persuade someone, but could also be compelled to force the Elmali to tell an inconvenient truth. (When used as an aspect, the rating is ignored.)

Edited September 4, 2023 by alakoring

[alakoring]

Oh, and you’d need a skill of 3 to be rune level. Another skill is Power, which is raw magic (you could create advantages like Ritual Preparation). High Power could give you a larger magical stress track.

I think one reason I didn’t get further was like Epicurean said — Fate can feel a lot like HeroQuest. Also, I never figured out a good way to do shamans or sorcerers.

[ZedAlpha]

Oh, that's a good idea. Both of those are. Now that I'm looking at my notes, I am in fact cribbing a ton from Secret of Cats; in particular this means mandating that a PC's strongest Rune be part of their High Concept, and that that rune is required to be their highest magical Skill. The sheer number of Runes is going to mean that making stunts for them is a bit loosey-goosey, but given that this is probably going to be a one(ish) shot adventure, improvising stunts and/or magical effects could work. I definitely like ensuring the divine rune restrictions--and I think about mandating one Aspect being religious affiliation, and allowing that to be separate from High Concept.

So just as a rough example, Aspects for a hypothetical PC (based on one of the PCs from the last time I ran a HeroQuest game) could be:

Prince K'Dud
High Concept: Himbo Prince with Fiery Fists

Trouble: Dumb As A Bag Of Hammers

Religion: Lodril & The Lowfires

Free Aspect: Master of Bronze Arms Style

Free Aspect: Royal Blood

And K'Dud's highest skills could be Body, then Fire, and so on.