Interracial Genetic Structure

[Erol of Backford]

So we have several items needing some input:

What would the stat lines be for the daughter of Pavis and a Pavis garden Dyard? Wasn't Pavis a half elf? For now we just averaged the two parents to find something reasonable and tweaked slightly to make the character as the PC envisioned. 

If a human has a shapechange human to troll spell how would their stats change if at all, would they be the same and just look like a troll? Along the sma eline would they gain any darksence ability or would it be just appearance? 

Say human and minotaur have a child (yes with lots of fertility magic) would the stats be an average of the two races? 

I imagine you could sway towards either of the parents in any situation or even invoke some old recessive gene to bring out a characteristic trait desired for MGF.

Think about it, wouldn't a baby minotaur be cute with dimples?
 

[Squaredeal Sten]

I am pretty sure that Gregor Mendel's work has no mythological equivalent in Glorantha, and that the Man Rune has little in common with DNA.

In othet words this is one of the cases in which we are entitled to ask "what is most Bronze Age?", "what fits myrh better?", and even "What makes a fun game?" and to  ignore the genetic theory and knowledge that has accumuated in the last two centuries in the Real World.

As far as shape changing spells go, we actually have some RQiG examples and rules in tbe Red Book, and I suggest it would be good to follow those.  That is a different issue from inheritance.

As far as inheritance goes, it seems to me that averaging the parental stats is understandable but doesnt always have to be done.  Even in the Bronze Age people must have observed that sonetimes children take after one parent in a specific way, sometimes they take after a grandparent or great grandparent.  Mendel (born 1822) explained it as recessive genes and systematized it.  But if you just want to say that Pavis's grandchild has or does not have a green tint, there is no rule to say you cannot.  The only limitation is where your players' suspension of disbelief stops.

Thats my own opinion anyway.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[mfbrandi]

33 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

If a human has a shapechange human to troll spell how would their stats change if at all, would they be the same and just look like a troll? Along the same line would they gain any darksense ability or would it be just appearance?

Given what one has to go through to become an elf and what Arkat had to go through to become a troll, my vote would be to treat it like illusion magic — extra points spent to fool more senses — and no stat changes or altered senses/digestion. More plot hooks and less bookkeeping that way?

39 minutes ago, Erol of Backford said:

human and minotaur have a child

If for a PC, just use human stats with maybe the possibility to trade in some CHA for more STR and SIZ (one for one)? I mean, if it is not a teeny mouse or a seven-mile dragon, why make life difficult?

[g33k]

7 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

... treat it like illusion magic — extra points spent to fool more senses — and no stat changes or altered senses/digestion ...

You could create an "Illusory Form" that is only "cosmetic" -- same SIZ  &c, looking like a runty-troll or really-big trollkin, and (as you say) without Darksense, eats-everything, etc.  It'd be cheaper (in Rune Points) than a full-on transformation.

But magic can create a greater change than that, fully-changing form.  It'd clearly need the Darkness rune to cast a "Become Troll" spell.  Nothing Illusory about it, really.

Note however that in Glorantha, "Illusions" are not "illusory" -- they do not "fool the senses."
They are, in essence, temporary reality.

An Illusory Sword can really stab someone, and the wound exists even after the Illusion expires.
An Illusory Horse can really carry someone, faster than they can run; and they really move to another place, even after the Illusion expires.
An Illusory Fire can really burn; it can catch other things on fire, and they really are on fire, even after the Illusion expires.

etc etc etc

Edited September 18, 2023 by g33k

[g33k]

12 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

... What would the stat lines be for the daughter of Pavis and a Pavis garden Dyard? Wasn't Pavis a half elf? For now we just averaged the two parents to find something reasonable and tweaked slightly to make the character as the PC envisioned. 
...

11 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I am pretty sure that Gregor Mendel's work has no mythological equivalent in Glorantha, and that the Man Rune has little in common with DNA ...

 

I'm with @Squaredeal Sten:  questions predicated on real-world "inheritance" & "genetics" are irrelevant, here.

Instead, I'd approach it from the setting-first approach

Q:  how and why did this happen?
Did Pavis somehow emerge from his Crystal Palace?  Did the Dryad somehow enter it?  Was there some "neither in nor out" liminal state where they met and... interfaced?

For Pavis, in particular:  odd cross-breeding is his stock in trade; what is his objective here, bringing the Aldryami/Dryad lineage in?  Did he succeed?  If not (or only partially)... why not, and what happened instead?  Did an/other party/ies (e.g. some Dwarfish plan, Lunar plan, Malkioni plan, etc) interfere, and was their agenda anything beyond "Prevent Pavis from succeeding?"

I think the "stat lines" will depend a *LOT* on some of these questions...  For example, I could hypothesize that Pavis is working with Rockwood Giants, who want to boost the redwoods, so it's a Redwood dryad, and the resulting "stat lines" will have a major SIZ boost & some fire-resistance.  The question then becomes:  what does Pavis get out of it?  Why does Pavis want Redwood-Dryad as part of his lineage?

Or maybe it's an Elf-centric plan they've tricked/seduced Pavis into, and it's a Palm-tree dryad (with some of Pavis' Fertility magic grabbed on the downlow) and they're looking to link the Garden to the Oases and/or the Hidden Greens (n.b. the "Hidden Greens" is another route a Dryad could have reached Pavis, if one of those Greens manifested in part of his Crystal Palace).  Does Pavis realize he was tricked?  Or is he playing an even-deeper game than the Elves?

Maybe it's as simple as "an effort on Pavis' part to escape the Dwarfish prison aspect of his Crystal Palace" (tho honestly, simpler seems to me like less not more on the MGF scale).

etc etc etc ...

 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by g33k

[mfbrandi]

5 hours ago, g33k said:

They are, in essence, temporary reality.

Sure, but one suspects that an illusory sword with enough “reality” to kill is unlikely to have the internal structure of a “permanently real” sword (which is not permanent and in some sense no more real) — perhaps it has none at all.°

That is not to say that one cannot “fake” less obvious levels of perceptible reality, but I cleave to a principle of minimum reality: you want more, it’ll cost you extra. In contrast, “perfectly ordinary reality” goes all the way down. Let illusion have some distinction, some magic beyond simply being — watch the victim bleed out around an invisible, silent, odourless, massless, soon-to-be-gone sword. If you like, normal reality is built from the inside out, but illusion is built from the outside in — and it goes in only barely far enough for the purpose at hand.

But that is just me (and me, this morning, at that). The viewpoint is mandated neither by canon nor by common sense.

———————————————————————————————
° Tricksters with enough stability to take up philosophy and grey sages with enough patience to listen to tricksters will debate this stuff relentlessly. They may come to the conclusion that if they stop debating it, the world will end. If the LMs win the debate, the universe is retconned into Stasis (nothing ever happened), but if the tricksters win, then … ?

[g33k]

32 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Sure, but one suspects that an illusory sword with enough “reality” to kill is unlikely to have the internal structure of a “permanently real” sword (which is not permanent and in some sense no more real) — perhaps it has none at all.°

It needs "Illusory Substance" to do damage; barring info to the contrary, that works for me as "internal structure."
 

[Erol of Backford]

16 hours ago, g33k said:

The question then becomes:  what does Pavis get out of it?  Why does Pavis want Redwood-Dryad as part of his lineage?

Forget Pavis its what the Campaign needs... but you are correct the idea to justify the character makes it all the better in the end.

Actually, Pavis gets to rekindle a love affair from years bygone? LOL we didn't think on it too seriously. I mean who doesn't like a CHA 22+ Dyard with the name Redwood? (got that from somewhere didn't make it up) was thinking a tall, attractive, intelligent half elf with higher than normal POW would be a great if not aloof PC. Doesn't want to away from Pavis too long... but is restless and wants to see the world.

We have always played typical, how you roll them nobody characters, with no funds and no backing from local or foreign powers. We were thinking to try some characters that were a good bit above the norm for stats for this campaign.

Noting that we have 2 Agimori, a Bear Walker, an amazon, a half elf as part of the party.

The justification for Pavis being one of the parents gives a certain degree of access a regular street urchin would not have. Of course the being an actual daughter of Pavis will have what we feel to be some great role play antics as things begin to reveal themselves. These relations will need to be discovered and nurtured to be of value. its possible the PC will never actually know the character is actually Pavis' daughter. We are not that far yet.

As we are starting these characters with little but trimmed cultural abilities we will need to work our way through the formative years... some physical attributes will need to be trained and or the characters might have to grow into their rolled stats. We'll take some cues from the Valley of Plenty and Six Seasons and see where that takes us much closer to character generation from a young age into young adulthood. We are still working out the details as to where actually any cult initiation happen...

13 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Let illusion have some distinction, some magic beyond simply being — watch the victim bleed out around an invisible, silent, odourless, massless, soon-to-be-gone sword. If you like, normal reality is built from the inside out, but illusion is built from the outside in — and it goes in only barely far enough for the purpose at hand.

I think the shapechange to troll would be fun as both and illusion and a physical change depending on amount of magic energy spent, keep the same size, get a little smaller or larger, maybe take on the racial attributes, anything eaten, darksense... etc. that's something we will use...

Thank you all.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Forget Pavis its what the Campaign needs...

Yes:  you want to set up  "what Pavis wants"  specifically so it's the MGF thing for the campaign (likely, IMO, with some other plans on the part of the Aldryami (and maybe some 3rd party is involved, with their own agenda, who "enabled" the whole thing (which has seemed impossible before now))).  All of it driven -- on a metagame level -- by "MGF," but also with in-world rationale, motivations, NPCs, etc.

To me, fitting it that way ties it better to the setting, making for more story-hooks, more complications for the PC, etc.

Edited September 19, 2023 by g33k
(more plans (within plants (within plans)))

[Erol of Backford]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

more complications for the PC

Who doesn't enjoy plot twists!?

[soltakss]

On 9/17/2023 at 8:32 PM, Erol of Backford said:

What would the stat lines be for the daughter of Pavis and a Pavis garden Dyard? Wasn't Pavis a half elf? For now we just averaged the two parents to find something reasonable and tweaked slightly to make the character as the PC envisioned. 

Pavis was a half-elf, so I'd say to use the stats for an Elf, either a Brown Elf or Green Elf.

On 9/17/2023 at 8:32 PM, Erol of Backford said:

If a human has a shapechange human to troll spell how would their stats change if at all, would they be the same and just look like a troll? Along the sma eline would they gain any darksence ability or would it be just appearance? 

It's up to you, really.

You could use the stats of a Dark Troll, I suppose.

On 9/17/2023 at 8:32 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Say human and minotaur have a child (yes with lots of fertility magic) would the stats be an average of the two races? 

Maybe, or you could roll a D2/toss a coin, to see which Characteristic follows which parent, so you could end up with someone with human STR, CON and DEX, and minotaur SIZ, INT, POW and CHA.

On 9/17/2023 at 8:32 PM, Erol of Backford said:

I imagine you could sway towards either of the parents in any situation or even invoke some old recessive gene to bring out a characteristic trait desired for MGF.

Sure, that could work.

On 9/17/2023 at 8:32 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Think about it, wouldn't a baby minotaur be cute with dimples?

Anything with dimples is cute.

 

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Anything with dimples is cute.

Oh, the horrors of the Chaos Feature "Appear Harmless"

[Erol of Backford]

11 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Oh, the horrors of the Chaos Feature "Appear Harmless"

Note the skeletal head...