The Path of the Young God: Was there ever a mobile Young Yelm?

[Joerg]

Every night, the Gloranthans can observe the adventures of Lightfore as she rises up into the sky all the way to the Pole Star, and then descending again to a place within a sixth of the circumference of the sky dome from her starting position (on the equinoxes setting in the same constellation as she rose from). The path forms a loop in the sky resembling the HIV symbol.

Plentonius attributes these paths to the actions of the Young God (GRoY p.69) and identifies the Young God with Yelm. But the Copper Tablets tell us a very different story: they show Yelm (and initially his two brothers) as that stationary object in the center of the sky.

We only have one myth about the sun rising in the east, and that is from the Dawn, the last day when all the Gods walked the world. There is no Godtime precedent for the sun emerging from the Gates of Dawn in the Monomyth.

We do get one wandering sun in the Copper Tablets, though - Reladivus Lightfore, as a consequence of Umath ascending into the sky, known as Kargzant to the horse nomads of Pent.

 

If you choose to believe the mythical contradictions of the Entekosiad over the artificial corset of the Monomyth presented in Mythology (a work that explicitely warns against mistaking such a "map" for the territory), there was a Golden Age before Yelm Brightface replaced the White Empress Goddess (possibly with the rotating searchlight) as the Emperor.

We do get one short piece of Yelm prior to becoming Emperor of the World in the Prosopaedia (originally in the Jonstown Compendium) - his three challenges by Basko (the Black Sun), Molandro the Earth Walker, and finally Jokbazi the Predark Chaos. All of this is very different from the story of the Young God. It does work perfectly fine with the Brightface usurpation of the reign of the White Empresses, though.

The Golden Age immobilizes Jokbazi, taking it out of the perception of Yelm. A feat very similar to what Magasta does.

Yelm the Youth basically becomes Yelmalio inside the Yelm cult. Nothing that Antrius does (other than accompanying questers to the Hill of Gold) is anything like what Lightfore does. The Bridling of Kargzant, aka the Anarchy Year, is what gives us a Lightfore sharing in all the non-Yelm elements of the little suns that never entered Hell but confronted it whenever it surfaced.

 

Youth is about opposition, about failure to obey. Yelm is not at all about this. In the Entekosiad his ascension is about betrayal of trust (of the White Empress) and of abuse of jurisdiction. In the Prosopaedia, it is about destroying the previous order by painting it as monstrous and then demanding collective followership to deal with the problem the absence of previous power has created.

Experience of the world is something Yelm cannot undergo, except in proxy. Reladivus (the son corrupted by Umath) gives him such proxy. (So do Verithurus(a) and Shargash, and the four who perished. The one who re-absorbed may have been the necessary link to the others.)

[Akhôrahil]

Supporting evidence: Yelm the Youth among the young men of the Grazers, not exactly famed for being stationary.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Supporting evidence: Yelm the Youth among the young men of the Grazers, not exactly famed for being stationary.

It makes perfect sense to me that Yelm becoming stationary and the ruler is what marks the transition into the Golden Age.

The entire rider culture is derived from Yamsur (a little sun) and Hyalor. Yes, the young men can progress seemlessly into Yu-Kargzant, but their behavior is Kargzant, not Yelm.

 

[Richard S.]

The five stages of Pentan life are based directly on the five stages of the Yelm cult, which in turn are based on the five recognized portions of Yelm's life - Youth, Warrior, Teacher, Leader, Sage.

"The divisions so neatly made are manifest in the social structure of the societies which worshiped Yelm as their primary deity and leader of the pantheon." WF#11

That same writeup talks about how he practiced with weapons as a youth, and mentions "several tales" about him excelling as both a fighter and leader in battle. The only specifics mentioned are his fights with Zorak Zoran and Orlanth, but these were things that he did himself, not that he merely appointed a son to do.

The harp was also found "on the ground near where he walked", which is pretty direct evidence for movement (though perhaps I'm taking a myth a little too literally).

Most of this stuff is repeated in the WW#16/CC writeup.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Yes, the young men can progress seemlessly into Yu-Kargzant, but their behavior is Kargzant, not Yelm.

 

The Lightfore worshiping Pentans can't join the Yelm cult, which is why the Pure Horse People are a thing. Among the PHP, their men go through the five subcults of Yelm as they age and accrue responsibility, as described for the Grazers in RQG.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Richard S.

[Techpriest]

Let's start with what we know for certain about things with Yelm. This is concrete truth about things (or as concrete as we can be in Glorantha).

• Yelm and Orlanth have a beef
• Yelm is killed by Orlanth using the sword Death
• Yelm goes into the Underworld
• Gods die, lots of them die
• There are many children of Yelm who wish to become the new Sun

Alright, that's the groundwork here. So lets get into things that are a little bit murky in the timeline, because Yelmalio is a thing and I'm going to throw my schizophrenic take here - Yelmalio both is and isn't Yelm. He's a product of Illumination caused by Death, light carved from Yelm.

The 'Young' Yelm is Yelmalio is Elmal is Antirius is Kargzant.

Things that back this up:

• All only seem to come into myths after the death of Yelm
• Antirius and Kargzant either die or have an association with death in their myth. Yelmalio and Elmal survived to await the Dawn, battered and lesser than they once were. Karzgant helped piece everything back together after returning from the Underworld. 
• Antirius sprung from lights glow as a son of Yelm. Elmal is the son of Yelm - No mother mentioned. Karzgant is the son of Yelm - No mother mentioned. Yelmalio is described in the Prosopaedia as 'remained' after Yelm's death - No mother mentioned. 'Portions of Yelm' in the Mythologies books has Antitrius/Yelmalio as one of them, and the only god seemingly in it.
• Yelorna exists as a 'spark' left after the death of Yelm and is considered his daughter. This supports Yelmalio/Elmal/Karzgant/Antirius being sprung directly from Yelm somehow.
• Shargash is a related topic but I'm still getting through that. It's possible Shargash is another portion of Yelm that Death carved away - the destruction of fire and death it causes.
• Yelmalio is one of Ernalda's husbands. This is unique to him, but he's also the only one with Yelm's name fully in it.
• Time as we understand it doesn't exist in the Godtime before Time, everything happened in sequence but also all at once. Paradoxes are possible and almost expected. 
• Illumination is the 'truth'. Illumination references light. What are the runes of Karzgant/Elmal/Yelmalio/Antitrius? Light and Truth. The illumination, you might say, of Yelm.

Of course, this might be total schizo babble and I'm Charlie with the big board looking for Pepe Silvia and of course your Glorantha may vary. 

[Joerg]

13 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

"several tales" about him excelling as both a fighter and leader in battle. The only specifics mentioned are his fights with Zorak Zoran and Orlanth, but these were things that he did himself, not that he merely appointed a son to do.

Yelmalio is a portion of Yelm, so whatever Yelmalio did was done by (a piece or aspect of) Yelm.

The deeds of Yelm are:

• self-realization as a thought of Aether, alongside Lodril and Dayzatar
• his non-confrontation with Basko
• his confrontation with Molandro (which may or may not have involved melee or archery)
• his summoning of everybody to deal with Jokbazi (possibly on behalf of the White Empress)
• stepping up to emperorship
• turning Buburstus into his throne (by command?)
• receiving the adulation of the hundred (Gods Wall)
• enduring the wedding contest (which resulted in some fertile glances or one case of burnt plumage leading to offspring)
• siring the eight Planetary Sons (by looking at Dendara, I suppose)
• making humans (including Murharzarm and other Dara Happan nobility) together with five other deities
• evading Sshorga (leaving the solution to Murharzarm)
• absorbing or eating his northeastern planetary son as Umath invaded
• extending hospitality and recognition to his nephew Orlanth (? - might have been a local proxy in Ernaldela, Harono, or the capital proxy Murharzarm)
• losing the contest of arms (by proxy?) - or - witnessing the death of Murharzarm in the contest
• dissembling, leaving the portions to do their thing.

 

After going to Hell, Bijiif became the remaining identity of Yelm,

• burning out Wonderhome, setting up court in the scorched Underworld receiving all the dead gods from the surface world who made it west and down.
• Cursing VIvamort
• "summoning Rebellus Terminus" - receiving Orlanth Lightbringer
• demanding proof by the Fires of Ehilm and the proof of battle (basically demanding reflections of the first of the two tests of his own ascension)
• exchanging vows with Orlanth
• holding on to a strand of Arachne Solara's Web
• being carried in procession to the brand-new Gates of Dawn (siring Hon-eel's twins by gaze)
• rising, setting (for 374 years)
• rising, stopping up top, being dragged down again (Sunstop)
• rising, setting.
• Spreading light and warmth while up, enabling plant growth and fruit ripening, searing vampires - all merely by being. 

 

The list of his photonic offspring is rather long:

• Murharzarm and the first nobles (by making, leaving the hands-on job to Lodril and Oria)
• eight planetary "sons"
• possibly surface god suns like Yamsur (not part of the eight?)
• Griffins by Galgarenge
• Daga by Molanni
• Veldara and Lokarnos by Black Dendara in Hell
• Ironhoof
• Twilight and Nightlight by Hon-eel

 

Then there is the list of his fragments (which continue apart inside the Compromise, with himself whole again inside the Compromise).

 

At some point, Eurmal stole his fire for humanity.

That's Yelm.

The nomads then project their own survival onto their deity, adding shamanism (Golden Bow) and the travels of Reladivus and/or Yamsur to his credit. Possibly realized by absorbing the north-eastern Planetary Son when Umath ascended.

[jajagappa]

17 minutes ago, Techpriest said:

The 'Young' Yelm is Yelmalio is Elmal is Antirius is Kargzant.

Things that back this up:

Except that: Yelmalio does not exist until Yelm dies. Yelmalio is never a Young God, but the light that survives.

WF #11 is the best source for Yelm the Youth:

Young Yelm lived during the Golden Age. Some people claim that he was the harbinger of that age, for he is radiant and bright and lit wherever he goes. Sometimes Harbringer is a title or synonym for Yelm. The Young God is also hailed as the Provider, too. The agricultural communities hail him as the Wheat Bringer. Many old elf songs call him the Flower Bringer suggesting that the Green Age was of non-flowering plants before Yelm came along. The nomads call him Hunter at this stage, and say that this is the age he practised harmlessly with weapons. (Such was the innocence of the Golden Age that the fighters of the future learned the military arts from Kargan Tor in the guise of practise, exercises, or fashionable sport). 

Yelm the Musician began as a child god when he found a magical too l lying on the ground near where he walked. What he touched was a rune, and it transformed into the Harp of Harmony by the sun god's touch. He was sometimes seen playing it in the innocent age, often accompanied by the Mistress of Dance and her followers.

The Youth is also present in the Yelm cult writeup in the Cults Compendium, which is likely the foundation for the full cult when it is out in the Solar book and has some variant details:

The pictures which depict Yelm as a young god or child show him to be a handsome boy with fine, fair features and a head of curly blond hair. He wears a ring or other sign upon his right bicep (among the nomads it is a band of feathers, while the Dara Happans show a cloth stitched with guild designs). Even as a youth he carried the Scepter of Order.

Whether you see Yelm the Fighter as part of his Youth or not may be a question, but he learns to use and wield the spears and the bow before appointing his children as the bearers/wielders of these weapons.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

siring the eight Planetary Sons (by looking at Dendara, I suppose)

Well, looking or …

• The hand has a long history as a sexual instrument; the designation … ‘God’s hand’ — an epithet of several goddesses and a title borne by some God’s Wives of Amun — refers to the hand that (Re-)Atum used to masturbate in order to bring forth the rest of the Ennead.
  — Lloyd Graham, From Isis-kite to Nekhbet-vulture

That is one way to quickly populate a solid sky dome with stars if you are as intercourse averse as Yelm, I guess.

The words for kite and hand are the same in Egyptian — apparently — gives a whole new meaning to “a bird in the hand” (or vice-versa).

[scott-martin]

Love all of this. 

IMG the Khordavu era consolidated what were once regional expressions of the sky god into a unified modern Yelm, who is a jealous god who protects his prerogatives, including the right to be the only sun (solitary / solar) with full use of the "Fire" solar rune (the central dot is his ego or central viewpoint). This means that with very limited exceptions everyone around him is forced into the role of either subordinate or rival . . . and rivalry is rebellion. We all know that. As far as they're concerned in Dara Happa, every other sun or potential sun is either a little sun or a wandering sun. 

In the process, the story of the primal family of Aether was preserved in vestigial form like an afterburn: all of this had happened before, once upon a timeless time even the serene, perfect, unchanging and immortal emperor was just one little sun among many. And he had a father, someone whose very regime forced him into the choice of whether to obey or rebel. He had brothers who give us a vocabulary for weighing all the options. 

I believe that a version of the young sun rebelled and murdered his father in order to take his place at the center of the sky. Because gods are immortal Aether did not die but was forced to abdicate "up" and out where he is now acknowledged as the Dayzatar solution, the sun-that-was pushed out of the center by the sun-we-have-now. The mythology attributed to "Yelm the youth" are memories of these exploits. Other rebel sons and even daughters preserve other perspectives. Those with enough lore can read this composite story as a conspiracy of forces incompatible with universal order, but I find it more generally useful to think about each one in his or her trajectory.

And within Time death is available as a lever of generational regime change. Every day we can watch this succession (or precession if you prefer) roll across the sky as we start with a young god, brisk and leaping and full of possibilities rising from the gates of dawn. By noon he is at the center and rules the world for a moment before the weight of age starts pulling him down in the west to make way for the young god to follow. Is tomorrow the same day, the same sun? Different Pelorian philosophical movements will answer the question differently. When the perspective remains within the dead sun of yesterday, we have the experience of being the black sun in hell.

Sometimes the order of things fractures and what any given observe might consider the "wrong" sun triumphs. This is a rebel imperium, one of the blasphemous rites acknowledged by Yelmgatha but dreaded and shunned by most right-thinking people. There are many ways to go wrong. The Kralorelan solar hierarchy found an ingenious solution to the problem of how these rites can coexist with the true imperium, maintaining the potential for many suns when only one rides through a healthy sky at any given moment.

I believe that the lost Genert civilization recognized the cyclicality of the masculine or paternalistic lifecycle, much as the Esrolians honor [A]srolia as the mother who was but spend most of their time focused on Ernalda as the mother who is, the current generation of today. This might be where Tada comes in as "young Genert" or the rebel earth son destined to replace the aging father when the cycle comes round. But as we know the great god Genert did not come back when he died the last time. There was no successor. The elves of other forests figured this out. 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Is tomorrow the same day, the same sun?

It's an interesting question.

Responding to a side message, I noted some additional thoughts on Yelm and Yelmalio as you can look at their relationship in a few different ways:

• Yelmalio was that part of Yelm which remained in the Mortal World to fight the Rebellion and the Darkness, and in this guise he knows and teaches the skills of the Warrior to those who would learn and aid the fight. 
• Yelmalio was that part of Yelm which remained in the Mortal World in order to seek out and recover the stories, tools, and weapons of his father and offer them to worthy mortals. So as he had been part of Yelm, in essence he had already experienced being Young Yelm, Yelm the Warrior, and Yelm the Rider and could reveal those stories to others to experience.
• Yelmalio was also foremost in leading the fight against the Darkness and the Storm, though suffered defeats from both. 

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Every day we can watch this succession (or precession if you prefer) roll across the sky as we start with a young god, brisk and leaping and full of possibilities rising from the gates of dawn. By noon he is at the center and rules the world for a moment before the weight of age starts pulling him down in the west to make way for the young god to follow.

And that means too that every night we watch Yelmalio Lightfore roll across the sky and retell the tales of Yelm the Youth, Yelm the Warrior, and Yelm the Rider on his way to the zenith. And after the zenith he tells the tales of Yelm's disintegration and the ongoing fight to keep the world alive as Yelmalio, Lightfore, Antirius, Kargzant... 

Yelmalio is not the Young God, but he bears the memory of Yelm in experiencing and recounting these tales.

[scott-martin]

53 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yelmalio is not the Young God

This is a great point. He looks a lot like a Young God (Lightfore rises in Youth at the new year) and could theoretically grow into a sun under the right conditions, but as long as he remains Yelmalio he is never going to become the retrospective origin of Yelm. He's shifted 180 degrees away. Even if there's a magic trick or euphemistic explanation where the sun never enters hell but jumps across from dusk to dawn, simultaneously evolving from little sun to big sun and then at night from big sun to little sun again, they will never meet unless the sky is completely unsettled.

And Lightfore is chained to the same route as Yelm. Yelmalio reaches the zenith every night, but at that point the world is too dark to support an imperial claim. There is no father in the darkness because the father is dead, leaving the son to limp on through the night, spilling crystals without much of the pomp that the day sun commands. But hey, Lightfore "always" occludes Pole Star at the moment when the father is at the deepest nadir of hell. I wouldn't be surprised if Polaris started out as a little sun (Dayzatar's child, the "son" of the previous generation) and now replaces conventional Yelmalio in polite Dara Happan society at every moment but midnight. Interestingly, Polaris is associated with Kargzant but not the upland suns.

I like Lightfore as the memory or ghost of the mature Young God, the abortive regenerative cycle. Heir without portfolio. I wonder how that played out in Saird.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

the "Fire" solar rune (the central dot is his ego or central viewpoint)

It may look like the mote in God’s eye — ego blinding him — but perhaps the dot in  is Stevenson’s black spot marking Yelm for death. Or the hole from which the young scarab emerges, like a dead emperor emerging from his tomb to reign again. It looks like a flaw, but truly it indicates his superpower.

In contrast, the unblemished of Yelmalio and others may indicate impenetrability, but that is achieved by ceding power and refusing knowledge. Withdraw and withstand, these are viable moves but they are not power moves. Yelm knows that by going with the flow and accepting the pointy end of death, he will secure his reign in Time. One suspects that his power is like that of the ideal emperor of the legalists: the empire runs itself and the emperor has no freedom; if the emperor asserts himself — goes against the flow — all will turn to shit.

2 hours ago, scott-martin said:

a conspiracy of forces incompatible with universal order

But whatever the motives of the “rebels,” their actions may serve to establish universal order — Osiris is nothing till Seth kills him. Similarly, it is only eternally resurrecting Yelm that is of interest. If the blue fellow hadn’t obliged, Yelm would have had to hire an assassin — or possibly his young self could have been called upon to do it. And one’s young self (past) may be one’s child (future self), for these are the circles gods move in.°

Is there an Osiris figure for the sun to merge with on its nightly journey? The fertility of the earth — does this bring in our old friend Genert in any way? Resurrected but still in the land of the dead? Surely Hon-Eel’s human sacrifices connect.

—————————————————————
° Think Vinga as both young Orlanth (Adventurous) and daughter of Orlanth. A circular collapsible telescope — the mind boggles.

[scott-martin]

36 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Yelm knows that by going with the flow and accepting the pointy end of death, he will secure his reign in Time.

Love it. Don't want to talk too much here but I could be convinced that the current sun was (and is) considered a failure in strict celestial terms, the runt of the pantheon much like Tecciztecatl revealed himself as a vainglorious coward who couldn't even dodge a thrown rabbit and so becomes a lesser light. In this scenario the yelm had no place in the cosmic order before the introduction of death created an opportunity for weakness to step forward, accept his own sacrifice and negotiate with the night to be reborn as something more impressive.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Don't want to talk too much here but I could be convinced that the current sun was (and is) considered a failure in strict celestial terms

What no one dares talk about: the defeat (regicide?) of Yelmgatha. What did that do to Yelm to have the reborn Emperor, the new light of Dara Happa, cast down and chained in the Lunar Hell? So concerned about the rise of the Red Moon, only the DH rebels of the First Wane dared to speak of this, and then their rebellion was smothered and old Truths conveniently hidden.

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Except that: Yelmalio does not exist until Yelm dies. Yelmalio is never a Young God, but the light that survives.

Hold your horses there. Yelmalio is Reladivus Kargzant, one of the Eight Planetary Sons, who started his wanderings "corrupted by Umath", as per the Copper Tablets.

Reladivus Kargzant and Antirius Yelmalio experienced a merger through the Bridling of Kargzant in 110 S.T:, as dutifully written down by Plentonius (who describes the failure of the sons of Vuranostum to keep Kargzant free).

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

Reladivus Kargzant, one of the Eight Planetary Sons

There's no definite statement of Kargzant existing before the dissolution of Yelm. Reladivus (or Reladiva, per FS, and which I would align with the local land goddess) is only connected to Nivorah and is the Master of Serenity. Reladivus does pose the Remembering Problem and supposedly nurtures Gamara. Then there is the descent of Jenarong, who descends from the Starlight Wanderer, which per GRoY footnote might be Kargzant, or possibly Reladivus, but really remains obscure and is during the Silver Age. 

The Prosopaedia simply says that Reladivus is often linked to Kargzant. But does not confirm that they are the same.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

There's no definite statement of Kargzant existing before the dissolution of Yelm. Reladivus (or Reladiva, per FS, and which I would align with the local land goddess) is only connected to Nivorah and is the Master of Serenity. Reladivus does pose the Remembering Problem and supposedly nurtures Gamara. Then there is the descent of Jenarong, who descends from the Starlight Wanderer, which per GRoY footnote might be Kargzant, or possibly Reladivus, but really remains obscure and is during the Silver Age. 

The Prosopaedia simply says that Reladivus is often linked to Kargzant. But does not confirm that they are the same.

The Book of Heortling Mythology offers comments to the Copper Tablets which identifies the southeastern son as Kargzant rather than Reladivus. Reladivus begins his wanderings 30k Yelmic years before the dissolution of said deity, interacting with a star field that did not exist prior to Umath's invasion.never once going to the Underworld. Sounds like Lightfore to me.

These Starlight Wanderer spirits may well have been fallen stars rather than full-fledged Lightfore. We get figures like Argoom the Shadow Rider or Vettebbe allowing for less pleasant (former) celestial beings. Or possibly underworld stars fallen from a tilted sky dome.

[scott-martin]

20 minutes ago, Joerg said:

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Reladivus (or Reladiva, per FS, and which I would align with the local land goddess) . . . 

. . . We get figures like Argoom the Shadow Rider or Vettebbe allowing for less pleasant (former) celestial beings. Or possibly underworld stars fallen from a tilted sky dome.

This level of lore is why I come here.

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Book of Heortling Mythology offers comments to the Copper Tablets which identifies the southeastern son as Kargzant rather than Reladivus.

Well, I only find the one reference on p.28: "Kargzant follows Umath, circling behind and low."  And given the source, it simply may be a reconciliation between Umath tales and DH tales in the days of the Second Council. 

The Starlight Wanderers simply become those fallen stars or other light bearers who Yelmalio Kargzant Lightfore gathers up to help keep the Darkness at bay.