Processing the Mythic Maps

[Austin]

Hey all, I've been working through the "Mythic Maps" chapter of Mythology to try putting together what info comes from where. Here's my lists thus far from the Locations entries. I haven't cross-checked with the actual maps to see what is/isn't there. My goal's trying to figure out what a particular source's perspective might look like as a way of trying to puzzle out interconnections and figure out how to use these during a RuneQuest game.

Shared Mythic Map Sources

The following Mythic Map locations, by Age, are shared among all sources.

Golden Age

• Kingdom of Perfection
• Old Man Wanders
• The Spike

Early Lesser Darkness

• The Spike

Middle Lesser Darkness

• The Spike
• Valind's Glacier

Late Lesser Darkness

• The Spike
• Valind's Winter Empire
• Greater Darkness
• The Break
• Gods' Defeat
• Tilted Sky
• The Void

Grey Age

• Homeward Ocean
• Magasta's Pool

Reconstructing Harmast's Narrative

The following is a listing of each Mythic Map location which is attributed to Harmast's Narrative (HN) in the Mythology book.

Golden Age

• Blue Dragon's Path
• Kero Fin
• Kingdom of Perfection (All)
• Murder of Yelm
• Old Man Wanders (All)
• Seeds of the Mountains
• The Spike (All)
• White Camp of Wisdom

Early Lesser Darkness

• Aroka Sea
• Black Isle of Introspection
• City of Departures
• Dini
• Dragon's Nest
• Ernaldela
• Genert's Garden
• Kero Fin
• Madadar Sea
• On Jorri Folk
• Rockwood Islands
• The Spike (All)
• Storm Mountains
• Top of the World
• Umath Mountains
• Umath's Ruins
• Umath's Throne
• Vadrus' Frozen Land
• Worcha's Rage

Middle Lesser Darkness

• Great Wood
• Hill of Gold
• Hykimi
• Island of Dusk
• Rockwood Mountains
• The Spike (All)
• Tada Land
• Top of the World
• Valind's Glacier (All)
• Vingkotlings

Late Lesser Darkness

• Dagori Inkarth
• Dragon's Nest
• Gates of Dusk
• Genert's Garden
• Guardian Forest
• Hill of Gold
• Kero Fin
• Luathela
• Palace of Black Glass
• The Spike (All)
• Stormwalk Mountain
• Tada's Land
• Top of the World
• Vadrus Land
• Valind's Winter Empire (All)
• Vingkotlings

Greater Darkness

• The Break (All)
• Castle of Lead
• Earthfall
• Gods' Defeat (All)
• Guardian Forest
• Hill of Gold
• Hill of Orlanth Lightbringer
• Icebreak
• Kero Fin
• Palace of Black Glass
• Shadowlands
• Stormfall
• Tadafall
• Tilted Sky (All)
• The Void (All)

Grey Age

• The Block
• Chaos Wasteland
• Dagori Inkarth
• Homeward Ocean (All)
• I Fought We Won
• Kero Fin
• Magasta's Pool (All)
• Palace of Black Glass
• Prax
• Shadowlands
• Storm Bull
• Stormwalk Mountain
• Unity Council

Reconstructing Stella Corpora

The following is a listing of each Mythic Map location which is attributed to Stella Corpora (SC) in the Mythology book.

Golden Age

• Black Camp of Introspection
• Empire of Brilliance
• Fire Mountains
• Genert's Garden
• Griffin Mountain
• Imperial Palace
• Kingdom of Enlightenment
• Kingdom of Logic
• Kingdom of Perfection (All)
• Kingdom of Wisdom
• Mernita
• Murder of Yelm
• Old Man Wanders (All)
• Oslira River
• Ratite Empire
• The Spike (All)
• White Camp of Wisdom
• Yamsur's Spire
• Yellow Camp of Enlightenment

Early Lesser Darkness

• Keniryan Sea
• Mastina
• Mernita
• Oslira Sea
• The Spike (All)
• Suvaria
• Yamsur's Kingdom
• Yestendites
• Middle Lesser Darkness
• Alkoth
• Blue Moon Plateau (?)
• Dara Happa Empire
• Hill of Gold
• Oslira River
• Pelanda
• Raibanth
• The Spike (All)
• Valind's Glacier (All)
• White Sea
• Yuthuppa

Late Lesser Darkness

• Blue Moon Plateau
• Dara Happa
• Hill of Gold
• Inland Seas
• Raibanth
• The Spike (All)
• Valind's Winter Empire (All)

Greater Darkness

• Alkoth
• The Break (All)
• Dara Happa
• Gods' Defeat (All)
• Hill of Gold
• Tallseed Forest
• Tilted Sky (All)
• The Void (All)

Grey Age

• Alkoth
• Hill of Gold
• Homeward Ocean (All)
• Horse Tribes
• Magasta's Pool (All)
• Raibanth
• Sky Dome
• Starlight Ancestors
• Yuthuppa

Takeaways

I ended up doing both Harmast's Narrative and Stella Corpora to try getting a feel for the intersections of Yelmite and Orlanthi mythology. I wouldn't really say I have any "conclusions" yet, more just fuzzy thoughts as I continue trying to process Mythology's content for an eventual review.

Valind's myths are surprisingly prominent, having the rare "All" attribution like the Spike or the Gods' Defeat. I was also intrigued there's no "All" location for the defeat of Chaos.

The Hill of Gold is surprisingly prominent, appearing throughout several sources and Ages of mythology. My intuition says that the Hill of Gold is another aspect of the I Fought, We Won myth. I'm also feeling more respect for Yelmalio while processing material. He comes across to me as a world-redeeming deity, because of guiding the Starlight Ancestors to weave the shattered fragments of Primal Light into the new world as the stars.

I believe the locales attributed to Harmast's Narrative can be used to trace specific paths through the Gods World. This is directly called out by the main text, but we can see it directly here, too. For example, the City of Departures exists in the Middle Lesser Darkness, but is only attributed to Harmast's Narrative during the Early Lesser Darkness. Thus, it's likely that Harmast's Westfaring began in the Greater Darkness, then went into the Lesser before descending to the Underworld (and off the map). I'm inclined to think Harmast emerged with Arkat from the Palace of Black Glass, since that was both a physical location and a place the chapter says he visited in multiple Ages.

(I'm aware that the Palace's cellars were in the Underworld, but I'm hesitant to immediately assume that's still true because I don't recall reading that factoid in Mythology or Prosopaedia.) 

Knowing how to get to the Spike seems like a really useful knack for Heroes, because it's present in so much myth. It makes sense to me that going there is dangerous - because Chaos eventually blows it up - but I don't know how an adventurer's choices can impact which Age they're traversing. This impact of choices is implied in the main body text in "Using These Maps," page 80, and supported with the page 14 smoke metaphor. But I'm not sure yet how to structure that at the table in a satisfying way - i.e. with cause-effect rules or guidelines which players can use to interact with the game. The mental activity I'm looking for isn't rigid cause-effect. It's more like when a player has to choose whether or not to attempt a Passion augment and risk success or Despair.

The Hill of Gold also seems like a useful Hero Plane "landmark." This is exemplified in Harmast's fifteenth heroquest (page 15).

Likewise Grandfather Mortal seems useful - but it feels pretty obvious that his story has major consequences. Either have a weird magic offspring, or get killed and go to Hell. Maybe both. I wonder if a Hero could take the role of Grandfather Mortal, go on Old Man Wanders to get somewhere, then leave Grandfather Mortal and become the offspring he has there, taking the descendant's shape and dodging Humakt.

The omnipresence of the Homeward Ocean & Magasta's Pool in the Grey Age makes me think that it's a recurrence of the Blue Age, leading into the Green of the First Age (and Sea Season), the Golden of the Second Age (and Fire Season), and now the Early Lesser Darkness of the Third Age (and Earth Season). Belintar's been killed, Yelm has (sort of) been dethroned, as we finish the Harvest and enter the bitter cold of the Middle Darkness before everything goes Wibbly Wobbly with the full-bore return of Chaos.

Then Harshax returning with the new Dawn. Hail Harshax!

[Joerg]

There are two rather short myths which cover all of the Gods War. One is the Sword Story (which can be told for each of the four participants - Eurmal, Humakt, Vivamort/Nontraya and Gramps Mortal/Malkion), and the other is the highly intersectional Hill of Gold. Both are ongoing through all the Ages, describing the conflicts of the participants Lightfore(s), Orlanth/Tolat, Zorak Zoran/Tolat, Inora/Valind/Mountain.

The destruction of Mostal might be the third ongoing story, and the cycle of forestation and vegetation the fourth. The dragon(ewts) sort of refuse to have a story, but the (blue) moon has one in all the Ages, with Tolat involved.

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Crel said:

I'm inclined to think Harmast emerged with Arkat from the Palace of Black Glass, since that was both a physical location and a place the chapter says he visited in multiple Ages.

I don't think that would be a valid conclusion of a Lightbringers' Quest. There is no known (to Harmast) way for backtracking the Court of Silence to the Lost in Hell and then the Banquet sites of the LBQ.

While your escape from Hell can be along any strand of the web if you take on a specific mask of a deity (somehow Harmast gravitated towards Ralios - some Old Religion element to his Westfaring?) you can follow that deity's web conduit into the day of Dawn. That's how despite appearing at the Gate of Dawn, the gods appear amid their worshipers in Dragon Pass and elsewhere. (Ok, they are using pluripresence there, too.)

Edited October 16, 2023 by Joerg

[Austin]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

I don't think that would be a valid conclusion of a Lightbringers' Quest. There is no known (to Harmast) way for backtracking the Court of Silence to the Lost in Hell and then the Banquet sites of the LBQ.

I don't think backtracking is needed? I think everything is forwardtracking, but maybe forwardtracking in an chronologically atypical direction.

[Austin]

7 hours ago, Joerg said:

Gramps Mortal/Malkion

What leads you to associate Gramps and Malkion? I haven't got that notion from Mythology or Glorantha Sourcebook. Is it due to the Man Rune/humanist focus of the West?

[Joerg]

2 minutes ago, Crel said:

What leads you to associate Gramps and Malkion? I haven't got that notion from Mythology or Glorantha Sourcebook. Is it due to the Man Rune/humanist focus of the West?

Malkion's Fifth Action is basically the same mythical archetype as Gramps receiving the Sword. Yes, it happens outside of chronological order, or is a later loop's reflection of this "out of Green Age" transition.

For all practical purpose, (an iteration/incarnation of) Malkion is the western Grandfather Mortal. Spread offspring with all manner of goddesses, starting lineages or archetypes (or both in the same twinned couples of offspring). (He also doubles as Aptanace of the West despite Zzabur's desperate claims.)

And he seems to be the (ultimate) judge of the Dead, or he appoints dead Talar to the post. (There is some delay between Gramps dying and Daka Fal sorting the living and the dead.)

Grandfather Mortal is truly a title well earned by Malkion. There is even room for a Bijiif-like portion of Malkion going to Hell while some incomplete Malkion stays around for the Expulsion Marsh and being martyred in the Black City of Introspection where the Lightbringers sweep up EurMalkion... oops, different parallel.

[Austin]

1 minute ago, Joerg said:

EurMalkion... oops, different parallel

Yeah, I saw someone use "EurMalkion" somewhere for the first time recently, and it definitely did some fun stuff to my "bad ideas generation" part of my brain. Dunno if I buy in, yet, but that won't prevent me from inflicting it on players! 😄

I do not know what you mean by Fifth Action, but I assume it's some sort of dismemberment to create stuff (like the Cosmic Dragon). I don't quite see the total parallel between Gramps & Malkion, in part because I conceive of Gramps as essentially parallel to the Celestial Court - a universal ur-source of the Man Rune - and I conceive of Malkion as loosely a founder deity like Waha or Vingkot.

But I do see the echo, now, and that's pretty cool.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Crel said:

What leads you to associate Gramps and Malkion?

Not just Grandfather Mortal and Malkion, but perhaps more interestingly Flesh Man and Malkion... 🙂 

[Austin]

55 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Not just Grandfather Mortal and Malkion, but perhaps more interestingly Flesh Man and Malkion... 🙂 

Ooh, I do find that more compelling...

So in my head, that strikes my intuition more pleasantly because the notion of Malkion getting an Invisible God prophesy feels a bit weird to me. But setting it parallel with Flesh Man's madness visions of the End is quite intriguing. And if Flesh Man's a "grandchild" of Grandfather Mortal, that could put Malkion in the right spot depending on who Aerlit is. My thinking being, if Aerlit's the first "man-shaped" storm god then we have 3 generations.

Though of course the God Time usually isn't that nice and tidy.

[Joerg]

 

23 minutes ago, Crel said:

So in my head, that strikes my intuition more pleasantly because the notion of Malkion getting an Invisible God prophesy feels a bit weird to me.

Malkion the Seer is a visionary, possibly in his own right as much as inspired by an Invisible God that is not discussed by Zzabur.

 

23 minutes ago, Crel said:

But setting it parallel with Flesh Man's madness visions of the End is quite intriguing.

My point is that these visions of the End are visions of Malkion's Fifth action, a transitional rite going spectacularly wrong as outside Krjalki and angry gods interfere.

And that scene is extremely similar to Westfaring's Eurmal's perspective on being freed from execution in the Black City by (monstrous) Orlanth and his buddies, to be dragged off into Hell.

 

23 minutes ago, Crel said:

And if Flesh Man's a "grandchild" of Grandfather Mortal, that could put Malkion in the right spot depending on who Aerlit is. My thinking being, if Aerlit's the first "man-shaped" storm god then we have 3 generations.

IMO Aerlit is a lesser Orlanth - a smaller hill (not much of a mother), much less influence on his lands, and no dalliance with Earth, instead with Sea (Warera), and a few generations later, with his own great-great-grand-daughter (daughter of Fenela and Yadmov) siring Damol, the great pagan demigod hero of third generation Serpent King Seshnela.

The Genius Loci gods of Old Seshnela (including Basmol) keep finding mortal noble women lost in the woods to mate with in Greg's stories even in History.

 

23 minutes ago, Crel said:

Though of course the God Time usually isn't that nice and tidy.

All too often "child of" is interchangeable with "mask of" or "incarnation of". One way how multiple parentages turn up, and how generations can be jumbled.

Kodig and Barntar predating their own well-attested birth events (or that of Kodig's father) is not a big deal. This is another, earlier Kodig re-born as son of Vingkot, the same person/deity. The firstborn from Vingkot and the Summer wife, with the best claim to succeed is father after he dies in a battle far in the future of the VIngkotling generations. Establishing primogeniture as one aspect of Vingkotling kingship, later inherited by Korol's lineage in Heort's sons.

 

An archetype like Grandfather Mortal - the pure. unalloyed embodiment of the Man rune - is pluripresen

 

The Fifth Action is Malkion taking on the role of the sacrifice after the Expulsion March.

The sequence of Actions of Malkion/The Invisible God is part of the Zzabur canon about Danmalastan and the ancient west. Basically, you have a manifestation of Malkion (as the immanent form of the Invisible God?) cogitating the world from principles.

FIrst Action: Creation. the "universal perspective" perceives the Prima Materia, and divides it in (base) matter, energy, and emerges as intellect ("Ferbrith") aka Malkion the Creator.

Second Action: Manifestation: Runes as the Great Thoughts of the Intellect. This leads to Kiona the Law (rune), aka Malkion the Law.

Third Action: Multiplication. Kiona creates the One World (the world of First Beings, every one the archetype of what is to follow) by combining the runes, the Erasanchula or Maseren. Emerges as Ordelvis, or Malkion the Seer.

Fourth Action: Duplication: Ordelvis turns the prototype beings of One World into serial production, populating Danmalastan, the (triangular) (Golden Age) continent of Brithela. The Six Tribes of Logic, leading to Malkion the Founder.

Fifth Action: Destruction. Malkion the Sacrifice.

That latter philosophical stage is Grandfather Mortal, accepting Death as the final stroke of a life cycle. Alien to the non-aging Logicians of Brithos.

[Nick Brooke]

On 10/16/2023 at 2:22 AM, Crel said:

Knowing how to get to the Spike seems like a really useful knack for Heroes, because it's present in so much myth. It makes sense to me that going there is dangerous - because Chaos eventually blows it up - but I don't know how an adventurer's choices can impact which Age they're traversing.

Adventurers going to the Spike, and the choices they make while they're there, become part of the reason for it blowing up. Leave perfection to the gods: mortals can't hack it.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Adventurers going to the Spike, and the choices they make while they're there, become part of the reason for it blowing up. Leave perfection to the gods: mortals can't hack it.

Don't forget to hack away a few chunks of Truestone for your character.  What's the worst that could happen?  🙂