Blue Moon pantheon... vanished and gone with the wind?

[bronze]

Annilla was once a greater god and at the height of her power, she would probably be more powerful than the Red Goddess ever has been. Even in the fallen and broken state, she is still a major god. In all likelihood, she should have ruled and been supported by an extensive Lunar pantheon. But AFAIK, there are very few Blue Moon associated gods, let alone a pantheon. What calamities may have been befallen on them? Has the pantheon been dead and gone? Or has Annilla never had a pantheon? Or could they possibly be akin to the Fonritan Glorious Ones and modern Lunar Gods, ascended mortals? 

Edited October 17, 2023 by bronze

[bronze]

Besides, deeper knowledge and insights on the mythic Pamaltela and its peoples, cultures, civilizations is always welcomed! Going up to the history, Pamaltela had been a very intriguing place to learn and explore, full of mysteries and intrigues, especially at the time of myths and legends. It is unfortunate that modern age Pamaltela outside of Fonrit has become... less interesting than it has been, for a lack of better words. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by bronze

[Richard S.]

Where did you read that she used to be more powerful than the Red Goddess?

Personally, I don't think "moon" existed as a separate element before the Red Goddess, who used Chaos to make herself something New that then was retroactively added into the godtime. There were several moons pre-time, but I think it was just another type of celestial body, like stars or planets. I think Annilla would have been worshiped alongside other still-existant gods of darkness and water, with the occasional power god like Mastakos, not at the head of some now-nonexistent pantheon.

[bronze]

35 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Where did you read that she used to be more powerful than the Red Goddess?

Personally, I don't think "moon" existed as a separate element before the Red Goddess, who used Chaos to make herself something New that then was retroactively added into the godtime. There were several moons pre-time, but I think it was just another type of celestial body, like stars or planets. I think Annilla would have been worshiped alongside other still-existant gods of darkness and water, with the occasional power god like Mastakos, not at the head of some now-nonexistent pantheon.

No concrete evidence actually. Primarily inferred from the echoes of the lingering powers and power and extent of civilizations under her worship. Gods worshipped and served by greater civilizations are typically more powerful than lesser counterparts 😛

You consider "moon" is essentially an illusion crafted and imposed on by Chaos? That is a very interesting take for sure.

Still, a god of such power and scope should have had associated deities, if not a dedicated pantheon. Their almost total absence couldn't been gone unnoticed. And we know very few Blue Moon heroes and demigods. Most of them are not even humans. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by bronze

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, bronze said:

But AFAIK, there are very few Blue Moon associated gods, let alone a pantheon. What calamities may have been befallen on them? Has the pantheon been dead and gone? Or has Annilla never had a pantheon? Or could they possibly be akin to the Fonritan Glorious Ones and modern Lunar Gods, ascended mortals?

What you want to read about are the Artmali. Artmal was effectively the leader of the pantheon, a rival of Pamalt across the southern lands.

From Mythology, p.37: "Whether known as the Golden Empire, the Kingdom of Brilliance, the Artmali Empire, or the Kingdom of Logic, the world knew a great, vast empire that sought perfection and sent its rejects to live at the edge of the world."

In the Early Lesser Darkness, p.91 (map) and 92: "Artmal was a son of the Blue Moon Goddess who sailed down to the sea with his many blue-skinned children.... Artmal and his blue-skinned kin left First Landing and wandered across the Red Elf Marshes and Pamalt’s Plains until they reached Blue Moon City.... Blue Moon City: Artmal and his blue-skinned kin settled here and built a great city and port from which they ruled the surrounding lands."

Now, we don't know much about the pantheon per se, but seems to have included: Artmal, Annilla, and Tolat. In the Prosopaedia, it records that Artmal is a son of Veldara the Blue Moon and Lorion the Sky River.

By the middle Lesser Darkness, the Artmali are fighting the Vadeli, and getting corrupted by the latter.

The breaking of the Spike set the Sky Dome rocking, and the fires that poured out in the south pretty well destroyed the Artmali. Annilla was brought down and broken (possibly multiple times/places).

There are some other figures noted in the Prosopaedia: Afidisi, a founder and healer and Jarkaru the Indigo Conqueror, their greatest hero.

[bronze]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

What you want to read about are the Artmali. Artmal was effectively the leader of the pantheon, a rival of Pamalt across the southern lands.

From Mythology, p.37: "Whether known as the Golden Empire, the Kingdom of Brilliance, the Artmali Empire, or the Kingdom of Logic, the world knew a great, vast empire that sought perfection and sent its rejects to live at the edge of the world."

In the Early Lesser Darkness, p.91 (map) and 92: "Artmal was a son of the Blue Moon Goddess who sailed down to the sea with his many blue-skinned children.... Artmal and his blue-skinned kin left First Landing and wandered across the Red Elf Marshes and Pamalt’s Plains until they reached Blue Moon City.... Blue Moon City: Artmal and his blue-skinned kin settled here and built a great city and port from which they ruled the surrounding lands."

Now, we don't know much about the pantheon per se, but seems to have included: Artmal, Annilla, and Tolat. In the Prosopaedia, it records that Artmal is a son of Veldara the Blue Moon and Lorion the Sky River.

By the middle Lesser Darkness, the Artmali are fighting the Vadeli, and getting corrupted by the latter.

The breaking of the Spike set the Sky Dome rocking, and the fires that poured out in the south pretty well destroyed the Artmali. Annilla was brought down and broken (possibly multiple times/places).

There are some other figures noted in the Prosopaedia: Afidisi, a founder and healer and Jarkaru the Indigo Conqueror, their greatest hero.

Have perused them all. Fascinated by the lore. The Blue Moon and Artmali have been among the most powerful movers and shakers of the mythic age, and see how far the mighty have fallen. Even the reviled Vadeli haven't been sunken so low.

Unfortunately, as a Glorantha noob, haven't been able to get to read much of the deeper, older lore. 

Deeply wishing to appreciate more Godtime lore in the future. Dearly hoping future books may shed more light on the subject, give more nuggets to chew on, if not a dedicated Godtime lore book. Any deeper illumination of the Godtime would be welcomed, especially the less parts, such as the West, Artmali, Pamaltela or the East. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by bronze

[Akhôrahil]

We will get a New Artmali Empire during the Hero Wars, as the Artmali slaves rebel. Unfortunately, Chaotic. (Guide p. 562)

[jajagappa]

3 minutes ago, bronze said:

Unfortunately, as a Glorantha noob, I haven't gotten to read much of the deeper, older lore. 

The nice thing with the Mythology book out now is that you really don't need to. I think it's done an excellent job of capturing and incorporating a lot of these threads in both the maps and the summaries of the ages and the myths. And the Prosopaedia helps to find some of the more obscure but relevant figures.

[bronze]

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

We will get a New Artmali Empire during the Hero Wars, as the Artmali slaves rebel. Unfortunately, Chaotic. (Guide p. 562)

Very unfortunately indeed 😢

5 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The nice thing with the Mythology book out now is that you really don't need to. I think it's done an excellent job of capturing and incorporating a lot of these threads in both the maps and the summaries of the ages and the myths. And the Prosopaedia helps to find some of the more obscure but relevant figures.

Then, unfortunately, I have already read practically all available sources of the mythic age 😅 Can only hope more dedicated lore books to come in the future... if they come out at all 🥺

Edited October 17, 2023 by bronze

[Richard S.]

37 minutes ago, bronze said:

No concrete evidence actually. Inferred from power and extent of civilizations under her worship. Gods worshipped and served by greater civilizations are typically more powerful than lesser counterparts 😛

Still, a god of such power and scope should have had associated deities, if not a dedicated pantheon. Their almost total absence couldn't been gone unnoticed. And we know very few Blue Moon heroes and demigods. Most of them are not even humans. 

The Artmali worshiped Artmali as their primary god, not his mother. Jajagappa lays it out much better.

37 minutes ago, bronze said:

You consider "moon" is essentially an illusion crafted and imposed on by Chaos? That is a very interesting take for sure.

Not an illusion, it's absolutely real, I just don't think it existed before either the Seven Mothers' ritual or the Red Goddess's godquest. In using the raw creative potential of Chaos to create a new goddess, an entirely new element was also made, either by accident or design. When the RG then earned her place in the compromise, the new Moon power was too, and so was retroactively associated with all other moon deities like Gorgoma and Annilla, so that to third age heroquesters it appears that they always had the association.

[bronze]

If there is any condolence, it is that Annilla and Artmali will likely get a treatment in the future cult series. Hoping they will contain more detailed and intricate information. Who knows, it might lead to an epiphany on the subject of the Moons. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by bronze

[Richard S.]

13 minutes ago, bronze said:

Then, unfortunately, I have already read practically all available sources of the mythic age 😅 Can only hope more dedicated lore books to come in the future... if they come out at all 🥺

We'll almost certainly get more godtime lore in the form of myths, and we'll eventually get the heroquesting rules to expand on those, but we're not going to see something like "the society of the Vingkotlings" or "adventures in the Artmali empire". The godtime isn't a historical epoch, with definite borders and timelines and events, it's the unknowable story of creation that we tell stories about to explain why things are the way they are. Some stories are united by specific themes, so we have golden age myths, storm age myths, etc., and the God Learners managed to develop maps of where these stories intersect, but it's supposed to be, ultimately, background for the story of mortals within time.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Richard S.

[bronze]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

We'll almost certainly get more godtime lore in the form of myths, and we'll eventually get the heroquesting rules to expand on those, but we're not going to see something like "the society of the Vingkotlings" or "adventures in the Artmali empire". The godtime isn't a historical epoch, with definite borders and timelines and events, it's the unknowable story of creation that we tell stories about to explain why things are the way they are. Some stories are united by specific themes, so we have golden age myths, storm age myths, etc., and the God Learners managed to develop maps of where these stories intersect, but it's supposed to be, ultimately, background for the story of mortals within time.

Expansion and exposition of myths will be more than sufficient. In this context, the Prosopaedia and Mythology have done a magnificent expatiation, and they make readers want ever more, go ever further, seek ever deeper. Ardently looking forward to see more detailed, encyclopedic treatment. The results so far have been admirable and awe-inspiring, but I think it could and will be be even better. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by bronze

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

We'll almost certainly get more godtime lore in the form of myths, and we'll eventually get the heroquesting rules to expand on those, but we're not going to see something like "the society of the Vingkotlings" or "adventures in the Artmali empire". The godtime isn't a historical epoch, with definite borders and timelines and events, it's the unknowable story of creation that we tell stories about to explain why things are the way they are.

I don’t know, I mean Six Ages is doing this?

(I agree it won’t be published by Chaosium, who have more than enough to do already.)

Edited October 17, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Richard S.]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I don’t know, I mean Six Ages is doing this?

(I agree it won’t be published by Chaosium, who have more than enough to do already.)

I guess that's true. Though I think since that's from the perspective of one society it sidesteps a lot of the problems of setting something pre-time. I think Six Ages could be seen as basically "this is what the Hyalorings say happened to them in the darkness", not "this is exactly what was happening in Peloria during the darkness".

[jajagappa]

On 10/17/2023 at 7:27 PM, bronze said:

Then, unfortunately, I have already read practically all available sources of the mythic age 😅 Can only hope more dedicated lore books to come in the future... if they come out at all 🥺

Each of the remaining Cults books (Lunar, Solar, Darkness, Sea, Chaos, ...) should provide additional insights and myths. If you want to get some additional ideas, pick up the RQ Classic works Trollpak and Cults of Terror (unfortunately the old RQ3 Troll Gods isn't available). I anticipate that they'll be covered in the Darkness and Chaos texts, but while you wait for the new books, you can get more mythic insights in those that will likely be largely consistent.

If you really want to go mythically deep then you could dip into the Stafford Library works, specifically the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm (if you read between the lines you can see some Lunar fragments), the Fortunate Succession (which includes some different takes on the rise of the current Lunar Empire), the Entekosiad (which has mythic background on parts of Peloria that add some layers into the Lunar story - but there is a lot to tease out there), and Revealed Mythologies (which has tales of the western, eastern, and southern mythos - the first and last do add more to the Vadeli picture - but this work particularly will become largely superceded with the overall cults series). 

[bronze]

20 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Each of the remaining Cults books (Lunar, Solar, Darkness, Sea, Chaos, ...) should provide additional insights and myths. If you want to get some additional ideas, pick up the RQ Classic works Trollpak and Cults of Terror (unfortunately the old RQ3 Troll Gods isn't available). I anticipate that they'll be covered in the Darkness and Chaos texts, but while you wait for the new books, you can get more mythic insights in those that will likely be largely consistent.

If you really want to go mythically deep then you could dip into the Stafford Library works, specifically the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm (if you read between the lines you can see some Lunar fragments), the Fortunate Succession (which includes some different takes on the rise of the current Lunar Empire), the Entekosiad (which has mythic background on parts of Peloria that add some layers into the Lunar story - but there is a lot to tease out there), and Revealed Mythologies (which has tales of the western, eastern, and southern mythos - the first and last do add more to the Vadeli picture - but this work particularly will become largely superceded with the overall cults series). 

They are all lovely, but the Invisble God is invoking the greatest interest. Ardenty looking forward to appreciate it. Does the cult series include the eastern and southern mythos? 

Should peruse Stafford Library works. Really love them, but the sheer density of information is sometimes overwhelming 😓

Edited October 19, 2023 by bronze

[scott-martin]

On 10/17/2023 at 7:17 PM, bronze said:

noob

You sure have pinpointed the important questions! I will second Jaja's motion that the Stafford Library should keep you busy for a while and reveal something essential: the outer limits of the data we have right now. Every answer not in those books is either secret, emergent or both.

[bronze]

2 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

You sure have pinpointed the important questions! I will second Jaja's motion that the Stafford Library should keep you busy for a while and reveal something essential: the outer limits of the data we have right now. Every answer not in those books is either secret, emergent or both.

Thank you so murch for kind worlds! Definitely will try them! 🤩

Edited October 19, 2023 by bronze

[Richard S.]

Do be warned though that the Stafford Library is essentially just collections of worldbuilding notes, not all of which agree and not all of which are still true. King of Sartar is by far the most useful one.

I'd also recommend looking at least at the Sourcebook, if not the Guide. They're mostly about more mundane stuff and the third age, but knowing the mundane here and now of the world provides helpful context for the deeper stuff.

18 minutes ago, bronze said:

Does the cult series include the eastern and southern mythos? 

The cults books so far have made sure to point out how the gods are seen in places outside of dragon pass, especially for the earth deities in the south, and I expect the solar book will have a decent amount on the east once it comes out. For the most part their major myths remain the same, but maybe with some new names and associations. The deep lore for those places is mostly in Stafford Library VI: Revealed Mythologies, and the Prosopaedia has a lot of interesting tidbits to sort through.

[jajagappa]

44 minutes ago, bronze said:

They are all lovely, but the Invisble God is invoking the greatest interest. Ardenty looking forward to appreciate it. Does the cult series include the eastern and southern mythos? 

For Invisible God, also have a look at Nick Brooke's JC work A History of Malkionism

I'd also refer you to Jeff Richard's FB posts on the Invisible God, Malkionism, and the west in general which you can search for at the Well of Daliath: Search Results for “jeff richard invisible god” – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com) - particularly anything from 2020 or later as this reflects current thoughts and notes that we'll likely see in eventual Invisible God Cults book.

The Solar Cults book will likely expand on some of the Eastern mythos, but I suspect it will be less fully covered. However look at these entries in the Well of Daliath: Search Results for “jeff richard kralorela” – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

Pamaltela is a larger unknown. The Cults book on Spirit and Hsunchen Cults could have further insights, but for now the Mythology book and the Pamalt cult in the Earth Goddesses, along with Revealed Mythology are likely your best sources. 

[bronze]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:53 AM, Richard S. said:

Do be warned though that the Stafford Library is essentially just collections of worldbuilding notes, not all of which agree and not all of which are still true. King of Sartar is by far the most useful one.

I'd also recommend looking at least at the Sourcebook, if not the Guide. They're mostly about more mundane stuff and the third age, but knowing the mundane here and now of the world provides helpful context for the deeper stuff.

The cults books so far have made sure to point out how the gods are seen in places outside of dragon pass, especially for the earth deities in the south, and I expect the solar book will have a decent amount on the east once it comes out. For the most part their major myths remain the same, but maybe with some new names and associations. The deep lore for those places is mostly in Stafford Library VI: Revealed Mythologies, and the Prosopaedia has a lot of interesting tidbits to sort through.

Having read Sourcebook, and given a cursory look to the Sartar and Guide. Having some Library books, but the information contained in them are simply overwhelming 😓
 

On 10/20/2023 at 6:22 AM, jajagappa said:

For Invisible God, also have a look at Nick Brooke's JC work A History of Malkionism

I'd also refer you to Jeff Richard's FB posts on the Invisible God, Malkionism, and the west in general which you can search for at the Well of Daliath: Search Results for “jeff richard invisible god” – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com) - particularly anything from 2020 or later as this reflects current thoughts and notes that we'll likely see in eventual Invisible God Cults book.

The Solar Cults book will likely expand on some of the Eastern mythos, but I suspect it will be less fully covered. However look at these entries in the Well of Daliath: Search Results for “jeff richard kralorela” – The Well of Daliath (chaosium.com)

Pamaltela is a larger unknown. The Cults book on Spirit and Hsunchen Cults could have further insights, but for now the Mythology book and the Pamalt cult in the Earth Goddesses, along with Revealed Mythology are likely your best sources. 

Having read many of the articles on the West and the East. They are very thoughtful and interesting. Still, a thousand thousand thanks for the recommendations! 
It seems the West lore has undergone remarkable evolutions. Wondering the East will experience similar blossoming in the future. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by bronze

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, bronze said:

Wondering the East will experience similar blossoming in the future. 

I actually expect less so. The East is closely tied to a blending of the Solar and Draconic myths. Vith, the ruler of the East, is Aether. The Kralorelan Emperors are initially solar emperors, and then draconic emperors (or perhaps they are always the Sun Dragon Emperor?). There are conflicts with the Hsunchen, but they are in many ways a lesser derivation of the draconic story representing the rise of the beast-man (or man-beast?) which ultimately leads to the man-dragon. The Seas and Chaos (the anti-gods) of course play significant roles, and of course, Darkness leads to some strange developments in the Kingdom of Ignorance (the Black Sun, the Blood Sun, the Solar Storm, etc.). The last might lead to some interesting revelations we have yet to see, but I don't think overall there will be as many changes as with the West (probably because the latter got dragged into a medieval/saint/knight viewpoint for a considerable period which the East never did).

[bronze]

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I actually expect less so. The East is closely tied to a blending of the Solar and Draconic myths. Vith, the ruler of the East, is Aether. The Kralorelan Emperors are initially solar emperors, and then draconic emperors (or perhaps they are always the Sun Dragon Emperor?). There are conflicts with the Hsunchen, but they are in many ways a lesser derivation of the draconic story representing the rise of the beast-man (or man-beast?) which ultimately leads to the man-dragon. The Seas and Chaos (the anti-gods) of course play significant roles, and of course, Darkness leads to some strange developments in the Kingdom of Ignorance (the Black Sun, the Blood Sun, the Solar Storm, etc.). The last might lead to some interesting revelations we have yet to see, but I don't think overall there will be as many changes as with the West (probably because the latter got dragged into a medieval/saint/knight viewpoint for a considerable period which the East never did).

But brozne age China is far more interesting than the current krarolena... 

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 10/21/2023 at 2:12 AM, bronze said:

But brozne age China is far more interesting than the current krarolena... 

Kralorela lacking some of the syncretic weirdness of some of the other parts of Glorantha is something forum users bring up every once in a while. I do agree with you, but not sure much will happen. I hope they can flesh it out with more quirks and that said quirks will weave both into general Gloranthan themes as well as play with ancient Chinese/Sinosphere concepts.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Sir_Godspeed