Alternative mythic arcs for a Varied Glorantha

[Ynneadwraith]

We all know well the worldviews and cosmology of the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass, the Old Solars and the New Lunars, but in the interest of making Glorantha a more Varied place I was wondering what ideas people had for potentially different cosmologies and mythic arcs of different peoples across the lozenge.

It was inspired a little by @Sir_Godspeed's excellent ideas about Yggite beliefs, positing a parallel worldview where the followers of Ygg see him as the true heir of Umath and Orlanth as a trickster who's stolen his rightful place in the world, and subsequent conversations with @mfbrandi about how we'd like to see cultures who have their own slants on the central monomyth (or even mythic structures that don't follow the known monomyth at all, and have their own stories to tell).

My own thoughts are nowhere near as well formed as Godspeed's Yggling myths, but I was thinking about the Helerings (or at least a water/air/sky-based alternative mythic structure). Here's what I've got so far in terms of overarching cosmology, mythic arcs, and what those mean for tangible politics:

• Water was born of Darkness, and began as a formless all-encompassing ocean (or perhaps an ocean ring running continually from the Underworld to the Sky).
• When Umath created the Middle Air, he split the Lower Ocean from the Upper Ocean (the sky). The inhabited world is sandwiched between these two oceans, which is why the sky is blue.
• Those Water deities trapped in the Upper Ocean have forgotten they were ever Water deities (or potentially the Solar deities invaded the Upper Ocean and drove the native Water deities out, I'm undecided).
• The oldest of the Water deities live in the deepest depths of the Lower Ocean (e.g. Styx), as that is where Water was born.
• Each successive generation of water deities have strived to reunite the Upper and Lower oceans, and thus have risen up the water column (Magasta, Daliath, then progressing upwards). There have been many pioneers in this effort, including River Spirits who have flung themselves out of the ocean and onto land, coming one step closer to the sky.
• The latest and greatest pioneer is Heler, who leapt into the air as rain and has built a bridge into the Middle Air.
• Although the Helerings have been Orlanthised in recent years, this mythic arc lies as a substrate beneath more recognisably Orlanthi worship. Orlanth is viewed less as the head of the pantheon, but more as a friend of Heler who bargained on her behalf for safe passage into the Air.
• Their attitude towards the Lunar Empire is complicated. On the one hand, they're anti-Solar (in more recent years at least, as the mythic narrative has changed from them being lost Water deities to being usurpers). On the other hand, they're fascinated by the Red Goddess' feat of raising herself from the Earth into the Air., and what they could learn to take the next step into the Upper Ocean. The fact that these two pantheons are mixed up in the Lunar Empire's cosmic structure causes all sorts of tensions with Lunar missionaries, who haven't quite got their head around the cultural conflict yet.

I expect this differs significantly from the canon depiction of the Helerings, but I like it at least!

Has anyone else got any ideas about different mythic structures for different cultures around Glorantha? If so I'd love to hear them 🙂

Edited February 14 by Ynneadwraith

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

Those Water deities trapped in the Upper Ocean have forgotten they were ever Water deities (or potentially the Solar deities invaded the Upper Ocean and drove the native Water deities out, I'm undecided).

= fluid, so it encompasses the which can flow under your door and drag you down like a hungry demon or a whirlpool, the searing plasma of Yelmic , and the — chaotic/disorderly — turbulent flow of . people find excruciatingly dull and dead ( is just the bulging lozenge seen side on, rather than in ’s plan, they say); they only like it when earthquake makes it dance like Sir Sea and tsunami sweeps it clean to leave glorious, sloppy mud. Perhaps sorcerers use “–” to indicate wave–particle duality. (It is not only the Orlanth–Ernalda complex that can bid to swallow Glorantha whole.)

So I would totally have cultists who maintain that all of the interesting elemental gods are only so because of their forgotten nature. If you cannot let go of the other idea, that’s fine: everybody likes a schism. (OK: I like a schism.) You don’t have to decide which is true, now … or ever. is stability, anathema to — you cannot step in the same river twice, and myth is an ever-changing sea of story.

= blood. Sedenya —  — is Goddess of all cycles including menstruation and the blood tides of the rise-and-fall of empires.° In her quieter moments, goddess of the mirror, of the still pool. She must have worshippers who acknowledge the connection between things celestial and oceanic. Sedenya’s is the wine-dark sea. White Moonies may claim that the red rock hovering over us is a blood clot — partaking of — and that something must happen to disperse it and restore the properly y flow of the Goddess, the lifeblood of Cosmos. History must flow, everything must change, and even a empire must fall.

〉〉〉 improv-cum-brain dump ends 〈〈〈

——————————————————————————
° Yes, I appreciate that a goddess of life, madness, and the moon could lapse into an appalling sexist cliché — I didn’t invent her — so just refuse any orthodoxy that would let her down and learn to deal off the bottom of the deck. I assume that the menstrual cycle for Gloranthan humans is not a positively frantic one week. There must be a myth about that — has anyone written it? Something to do with hijacking of functions by the too too solid flesh of ? Melt it. Thaw it. Resolve it to dew, and restore the balance in the Age to come.

Edited February 14 by mfbrandi
simplified wording

[French Desperate WindChild]

are jails. Once inside you can't get away.

How Styx became water is a mystery, except if we consider that, as there is no inside, every thing is possible.

How Umath succeeded to leave is a mystery too, but the effort was so strong than killed him

 

Heler loves freedom, change and discovery. She was and is still able to change to himself. He decided to visit the sky and deliver its people, then she was a conqueror,

But is a hidden jail for Heler. Yes you go forward, but once you visit the top, you go to the bottom, then to the top, in an infinite cycle of waves. So Heler looked for something else. He met rlanth, and discovered an infinite range of possibles, seeing how the air wheel can spread the ashes of the old world in all directions. Then she became rlanth friend and lover.

 

Heler did not betrayed Water. Water betrayed Heler, making false promises of freedom when only one direction is possible.

 

[Joerg]

Earth is the source of Food, of Life Energy. The Seas have always eaten away at Earth, even when it still was in its watery womb, and deposited depleted stuff (chalk) on its surface. There is no way that the waters hate Earth or regard it as dead.

Heler yearns for Earth, his waters are starved for its minerals, but as soon as they touch upon it, he loses them. Only within the rivers the waters of Heler can partake of the energies of Earth. But Storm keeps ripping Heler out of these shelters, calling it dragonslaying.

I believe that Heler was banished into the Lower Skies even before Umath was born. The Keet migration myth has a Sea deity separated from its home, and a terrible revenge by that sea deity's kin against the lands of Vithela.

[Malin]

I have so many ideas for Sur'Enslib and the whole Darjini part of the Lunar empire, but sadly no time...

[mfbrandi]

44 minutes ago, Malin said:

Sur'Enslib

Water birds are a fine symbol of the unity of and .

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

On 2/14/2024 at 11:47 AM, Ynneadwraith said:

We all know well the worldviews and cosmology of the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass, the Old Solars and the New Lunars, but in the interest of making Glorantha a more Varied place I was wondering what ideas people had for potentially different cosmologies and mythic arcs of different peoples across the lozenge.

I assume that you have read Revealed Mythologies?  But no references to Heler, that I recall. 

[Ynneadwraith]

12 hours ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

I assume that you have read Revealed Mythologies?  But no references to Heler, that I recall. 

I have not, but I really should! In many ways I'm a bit of a newbie to Glorantha, and I expect there's a lot that I'm missing.

On 2/15/2024 at 8:31 AM, Malin said:

I have so many ideas for Sur'Enslib and the whole Darjini part of the Lunar empire, but sadly no time...

Time enough to scribble down a few outline points? I'd be interested to hear them!

On 2/15/2024 at 7:51 AM, Joerg said:

But Storm keeps ripping Heler out of these shelters, calling it dragonslaying.

I believe that Heler was banished into the Lower Skies even before Umath was born. The Keet migration myth has a Sea deity separated from its home, and a terrible revenge by that sea deity's kin against the lands of Vithela.

Interesting take! See, I like these differing opinions on the same event (Heler moving from Sea to Storm). I can see them easily being held as true by different (or even being true in different places, Truth in Glorantha being a proximate phenomenon). It also hints to another interpretation of Heler's relationship with Storm that I like: that of war captive. Heler being a hostage taken from Water and adopted into Storm as a lever against further hostilities.

On 2/14/2024 at 8:59 PM, mfbrandi said:

= fluid, so it encompasses the which can flow under your door and drag you down like a hungry demon or a whirlpool, the searing plasma of Yelmic , and the — chaotic/disorderly — turbulent flow of . people find excruciatingly dull and dead ( is just the bulging lozenge seen side on, rather than in ’s plan, they say); they only like it when earthquake makes it dance like Sir Sea and tsunami sweeps it clean to leave glorious, sloppy mud. Perhaps sorcerers use “–” to indicate wave–particle duality. (It is not only the Orlanth–Ernalda complex that can bid to swallow Glorantha whole.)

So I would totally have cultists who maintain that all of the interesting elemental gods are only so because of their forgotten nature. If you cannot let go of the other idea, that’s fine: everybody likes a schism. (OK: I like a schism.) You don’t have to decide which is true, now … or ever. is stability, anathema to — you cannot step in the same river twice, and myth is an ever-changing sea of story.

= blood. Sedenya —  — is Goddess of all cycles including menstruation and the blood tides of the rise-and-fall of empires.° In her quieter moments, goddess of the mirror, of the still pool. She must have worshippers who acknowledge the connection between things celestial and oceanic. Sedenya’s is the wine-dark sea. White Moonies may claim that the red rock hovering over us is a blood clot — partaking of — and that something must happen to disperse it and restore the properly y flow of the Goddess, the lifeblood of Cosmos. History must flow, everything must change, and even a empire must fall.

〉〉〉 improv-cum-brain dump ends 〈〈〈

——————————————————————————
° Yes, I appreciate that a goddess of life, madness, and the moon could lapse into an appalling sexist cliché — I didn’t invent her — so just refuse any orthodoxy that would let her down and learn to deal off the bottom of the deck. I assume that the menstrual cycle for Gloranthan humans is not a positively frantic one week. There must be a myth about that — has anyone written it? Something to do with hijacking of functions by the too too solid flesh of ? Melt it. Thaw it. Resolve it to dew, and restore the balance in the Age to come.

Man I so need to brush up on my runes 😄 I think I follow, but there's definitely a fair bit of nuance I'm missing!

Still, love the idea of Water folk appreciating Maran Gor's work because it finally makes the staid Earth get up and dance for a change. From a distance, of course...

Also love the continuation of the Water syncretism. It's not just Air and Moon that can lay claim to deities lying elsewhere, and forge yet more false monomyths. That's a little of what I was trying to get at. We have a dominant Theyalan-influenced monomyth, and a Lunar one too (possibly the remains of a Solar one as well). I'd like to see more!

I suppose it dips a little into my Gloranthan worldview. That the mythic structure we see today, and the trend towards monomythism, is a God-Learner (and Theyalan, who are very nearly as bad) fabrication. The stitching together of a million different myths and spirits into a patchwork whole, that's no more or less true than its individual pieces in isolation (and is missing key bits of fabric trimmed away to make everything fit). Perhaps these monomyths are so dominant that these previous mythic structures have no echo, but I prefer my Glorantha to be chock-full of these differing worldviews. Both existing in of themselves, or as tints and skews layered on other people's monomyths.

On 2/14/2024 at 10:15 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

How Umath succeeded to leave is a mystery too, but the effort was so strong than killed him

Heler loves freedom, change and discovery. She was and is still able to change to himself. He decided to visit the sky and deliver its people, then she was a conqueror,

But is a hidden jail for Heler. Yes you go forward, but once you visit the top, you go to the bottom, then to the top, in an infinite cycle of waves. 

Heler did not betrayed Water. Water betrayed Heler, making false promises of freedom when only one direction is possible.

 

Interesting! Perhaps this concept may have been part of the mythic reasoning Orlanthi peoples used to tempt the Helerings away from Water (they are an Orlanthi people after all).

[Ynneadwraith]

Not to get too Heler-specific (this threat was intended to be a more general one for people to share alternative mythic arcs), but I've been thinking about some potential subcults for the Helerings (in various states of disrepair since their orlanthisation).

Heler Precipitous: Rain magic (creation and control thereof), Flash Flood, some sort of stealing of fertility magic (playing into the arc of Heler's rains stealing the fertility of the Earth and delivering it to the Sea, though this would be a little forgotten since orlanthisation). Maybe a splash of healing magic through the application of rain (it would be neat if Heler could do a little bit of healing over a wide area, as a point of difference to other healing gods).

Heler Transcendent: Follows the mythic arc of Heler's transfer from Water to Air. Here goes magic like Leap and other borrowed Motion magic from Air. Also sex change magic, because it fits well and whyever the hell not? Perhaps some form of peace magic as well, as Heler (and the Helerings) moved from adversary to companion.

Heler Worchaling: Near-extinct subcult of Heler as a Water war-deity (playing on the Helerings' conflation of Worcha and their role in the Trembling Shore). There seems to be a dearth of cool watery war magics, but I'm thinking of things like allowing blades to pass through you like water or something like that. I've also got an idea in my head of Helerings having magic that allows their bowstrings to function in the rain. Flood and Drown would go well here too.

This is sort of noodling around the idea of the 'subcult-as-epithet' thing being an Orlanthi creation, and the Helerings having picked it up during their orlanthisation as a way to refine their relationship with Heler. I do appreciate Jeff's approach of only major gods having multiple subcults (he's got a hell of a job baking in some degree of approachability to the game), but for me Heler is a Major God to the Helerings. Perhaps those subcults are unrecognised elsewhere, but it stands to reason that the people of Heler would have a more nuanced relationship to their patron than others.

This all fits into the alternative mythic arc of Water Strives Upwards (with a mash-up of orlanthism). Perhaps Heler's breakthrough was in the movement from violence (Heler Worchaling) to collaboration with Air (Heler Transcendent), partially explaining the loss of his/her warlike aspect (the rest being social pressure and competition from Orlanthi war-cults).

[mfbrandi]

11 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

I think I follow, but there's definitely a fair bit of nuance I'm missing!

Nah, I am strictly WYSIWYG — all shallow seas, no ocean depths. Read once (if you are feeling generous), then toss away and have your own better idea.

Apologies for the excessive rune usage.

[Ynneadwraith]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

Nah, I am strictly WYSIWYG — all shallow seas, no ocean depths. Read once (if you are feeling generous), then toss away and have your own better idea.

Apologies for the excessive rune usage.

Haha no, don't apologise! I see it as part of my continued edification 😄

A pond is plenty deep enough if you're a frog or a newt 😉

[Sir_Godspeed]

Shucks, rarely have I received such glowing recommendations. I'm happy to have inspired something. ^^ 


As others have mentioned, the Monomyth we see in writings appear to be a result of a historical syncretism that took centuries, perhaps first occuring in the Lightbringer-First Council era between Heortlings and their Elder Race allies, and exported and expanded with the Lightbringer missionaries. Then, perhaps later, there's a Bright Empire syncretism that marries Orlanthi and Pelorian myths into a somewhat cohesive whole. 
This is what the God Learners latch onto, and just... turbocharge. Monomythical concepts and narratives appear to be exported to virtually the entirety of Glorantha, and appear to be internalized so thoroughly that it's hard to envision them never being there. 
Or maybe it's a case of the writers just needing SOME level of common ground. 

But we do find "canonical" cultures that buck this trend. If you want to get into a brain-twister, the Entekosiad features some example of what we might call "subaltern" Pelorian traditions, that are less interested in the Monomyth, and whose roots are in the Green Age rather than the Golden and Storm ages. This is the area of painted men naming the animals species and the Pale Queen ruling the cosmos and abstractions of heat and matter transforming again and again. I wouldn't make it my FIRST Stafford Library read though. 

In Revealed Mythologies we get a glimpse into the East Isles Vithelan mythology, which also generally bucks the monomythic trends. One of my favorite aspects here is that they don't really have a Greater Darkness apocalypse (well, sorta, but not completely), but rather an illusory empire that is snuffed out of existence with the Dawn. It's not completely opposed to trends in the Monomyth, mind you, the East Isles still struggle with rapacious sea and storm gods, and does face Chaos, but it unfolds differently than in Central Genertela. 

I'm also tempted to look at someone like Zzabur's perspective on things. He's got some... ideas on what has actually transpired. 

 

As for my own writing, since the Yggling stories, I've also tinkered with a completely-invented North Pentan Muskox people's myths, which admittedly kinda follows some monomythic motions, but from a very different perspective than the Theyalan Orlanthi. 

A more radical departure is also a sort-of Shargashite Heresy I've been brainstorming. I like taking ostensibly one-dimensional things and going "ah, but actually it's really deep and profound" and seeing where it can take me. The idea was to make Shargash a deeply tragic character, a once noble and vital figure that self-immolated in grief into a fell and terrible bringer of vengeance with the death of Yelm. The Only Loyal Son. It's super counter-canonical, but fun to think about.