Non human playable races and encounter balancing

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Peter Fitz said:

I gave up on mechanistic character/monster equivalency systems long ago, when I ran a bunch of campaigns using the Hero System (3rd to 5th editions). In theory, a 100 point character and a 100 point monster in that system should be roughly equivalent in power, but due to the flexibility and open nature of the creature/character generation system, that's almost never the case.

Yup. and the value might even change from one campaign to another. If a character spends 20 points on different languages those points are wasted in the GM never uses any other languages in the game. If the players are constantly running into other languages and said PC is the only one who can speak the language, then those 20 points are worth much more. 

So much of what makes something useful depends on who's running and how they are running.And that is what really determines the point value of a character. Even the value of combat and magical abilities can vary.  

 

[shadythedevil]

11 hours ago, el_octogono said:

 

You don't need to apologize. shadythedevil came with demands and bullying attitude, using lots of "lols" in a clear passive-agressive maner, dismissing the numerous answers trying to explain the way BRP works and why his intention wouldn't work as expected, even when alternative solutions or guides were given.

 

i do find it hilarious.

im just trying to save time and have fair choices for starting races.

its hilarious that this notion 'does not compute' with the community, lol. its frankly weird as hell lol.

and as i mentioned in my original post, i had an inkling for the type of response i would get. a lot of people telling me how to DM and saying its not a system for me, blah blah blah.

some have been helpful. its mostly been a discussion about how people are stuck in their ways, unfortunately.

i will say it again. saving time is important for me as an adult and as the system stands, it wastes a lot of time and plenty of time saving features could be added without inherently changing the game.

that is all.

[Susimetsa]

1 hour ago, shadythedevil said:

im asking for a summary stat, stat. an amalgamation stat. and dare i say it, a cr-like stat. i also want to provide fair options beyond humans for my players when they pick races.

In the spirit of ignoring the bickering and focussing on the issue, do you have a presentable draft of your system that we could take a look at and develop further if we have any productive ideas how to make it work better?

Whether everyone would find it useful or necessary for the system is beside the point - I'm sure the problem solving part of many GMs brains would activate at the challenge if there was something to start the work from.

Insofar as the cultures/races goes, it is a complex issue: you can either solve it with mathematics (making numerical adjustments to keep them balanced) or culturally (come up with cultural restrictions/aspects why certain species/races have limitations/benefits that are not immediately apparent in their stats). The latter type of adjustments are not easily compared and are very dependent on how well the GM knows the game world and adheres to its cultures.

An example: a species communicating with complex tunes and sounds, able to mimic almost any sound that they hear. They have bonuses to their communication and artistic skills. On the other hand, they may be plant-based, requiring certain types of ground to draw nutrients from - either during their sleep cycles or throughout the day - making their ability to visit large cities limited.

Edited June 30 by Susimetsa

[el_octogono]

9 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

it is like the pizza situation, except im not asking for money back. im asking HOW TO SAVE TIME HOLY FUCK LMFAO.

 

If your concern is REALLY to save your time, then you only need to take a look at:

 

1- Combat skill levels: 20-30% for rookies, 30-60 competent and 60+ for serious trouble.

2- The damage caused by attacks (specially average and max values). Anything that causes at least half the PCs HP in average damage is deadly.

3- Armor: same as attacks but reversed. Check how many HPs the average damage of the PCs pass through the armor. If =<0 then it's going to be really tough. If it causes damage check hoy many hits are needed to bring down the enemy: 1-3 it's normal, 4+ is well protected.

 

One of the beauties of BRP is that you have your probabilities written down in percentage and you don't need to guess. It's something you should have noticed given your vast experience.

Anyway there's also everything else that was expressed in this thread.

 

[shadythedevil]

4 hours ago, el_octogono said:

 

If your concern is REALLY to save your time, then you only need to take a look at:

 

1- Combat skill levels: 20-30% for rookies, 30-60 competent and 60+ for serious trouble.

2- The damage caused by attacks (specially average and max values). Anything that causes at least half the PCs HP in average damage is deadly.

3- Armor: same as attacks but reversed. Check how many HPs the average damage of the PCs pass through the armor. If =<0 then it's going to be really tough. If it causes damage check hoy many hits are needed to bring down the enemy: 1-3 it's normal, 4+ is well protected.

 

One of the beauties of BRP is that you have your probabilities written down in percentage and you don't need to guess. It's something you should have noticed given your vast experience.

Anyway there's also everything else that was expressed in this thread.

 

hey well thanks for answering in the spirit of the question i was asking.

this is pretty much what i am doing.

ive explained in previous posts i have a wonky table of sorts to help figure out how exactly a monster compares to a group of players. i weighted armor and hp the heaviest, then i turned chance to hit and dmg into potential dmg per round. i have a few other factors that also go in but which are weighted much less than those two stats.

[Atgxtg]

15 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

i do find it hilarious.

Well that's one person.

15 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

im just trying to save time and

Which is fine. But it's a trade off.

it's like if you wanted to do a mystery adventure. It would take more time to prepare because you would have to figure out what the mystery was about, who was the culprit, what they did and what clues they 'd leave behind for the players. 

15 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

have fair choices for starting races.

Which isn't something people worry about in this game.

 

15 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

its hilarious that this notion 'does not compute' with the community, lol. its frankly weird as hell lol.

What doesn't compute isn't your end goal, just your methods.

You assume that a CR type stat would work. We can assumre that it won't. Characters vary too much for it to do so.

15 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

and as i mentioned in my original post, i had an inkling for the type of response i would get. a lot of people telling me how to DM and saying its not a system for me, blah blah blah.

You're being rude and arrogant .You are assuming that you must be right and thatdismissing thier advice and not considering theiropinions are wrong.

 

15 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

some have been helpful. its mostly been a discussion about how people are stuck in their ways, unfortunately.

The only one stuck in thier ways is you.

You pick up BRP and then want to prepare for it the same way you prepare for D&D.

15 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

i will say it again. saving time is important for me as an adult and as the system stands, it wastes a lot of time and plenty of time saving features could be added without inherently changing the game.

Agan you don't listen. Adding those feature would inheriently change the game beucase you would have to change the game to make those features work.

 

I don't know how you can be an experienced DM and not realize how much lcharacter evel controls every aspect of D&D.

15 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

that is all.

But is isn't because you haven't done or suggested anything that would actually save you time. Instead you just crtized the fanbase and game system.

[shadythedevil]

12 hours ago, Susimetsa said:

In the spirit of ignoring the bickering and focussing on the issue, do you have a presentable draft of your system that we could take a look at and develop further if we have any productive ideas how to make it work better?

Whether everyone would find it useful or necessary for the system is beside the point - I'm sure the problem solving part of many GMs brains would activate at the challenge if there was something to start the work from.

Insofar as the cultures/races goes, it is a complex issue: you can either solve it with mathematics (making numerical adjustments to keep them balanced) or culturally (come up with cultural restrictions/aspects why certain species/races have limitations/benefits that are not immediately apparent in their stats). The latter type of adjustments are not easily compared and are very dependent on how well the GM knows the game world and adheres to its cultures.

An example: a species communicating with complex tunes and sounds, able to mimic almost any sound that they hear. They have bonuses to their communication and artistic skills. On the other hand, they may be plant-based, requiring certain types of ground to draw nutrients from - either during their sleep cycles or throughout the day - making their ability to visit large cities limited.

youre a cool dude.

i do have something that I could share, but i am rather reluctant to do that here.

i am reluctant, because it will be picked apart. there is probably a lot wrong with it. ive also not play tested with it, as i am still keying hexes for my hexcrawl.

im probably a few months away from being in a playable state. if you really REALLY wanna see this funky flexible table ive got in its current state, i could share it with you on discord.

also, when i first had asked the question about additional races for players that are fair, i had not read through the book cover to cover. as i am putzing around, reading sections of the new BRP book here and there, I came across a section that i skipped or that i entirely forgot. it says this verbatim in the newer BRP book.

"Some skills may be commonly taught
and used within this culture as a part of socialization and
common education. At your gamemaster’s discretion,
these skills might gain a small bonus. If bonuses to skills
are used, it is recommended that every culture gain equal
bonuses, though to a different set of skills."

that is pretty much what i was asking, but i was asking as it related to the characteristic stats. so i have decided to keep all playable race characteristics within a 3d6. if a particular race is really adept in a certain characteristic, they will get 12 + d6. if a particular race is greatly lacking in a particular characteristic, they get 3 + d6. so basically keeping it equal, but giving some max rolls or min rolls here and there.

this is the part of the book that i do not think is very helpful...

"To choose whether or not a particular creature is suitable for the campaign as a player character, the GM should ask three
questions:
M Is a player character version of this creature inappropriate for the campaign setting?
M Will this creature cause difficulties for other players or the course of the campaign?
M Will this creature unbalance the rest of the campaign?"

that last question really needed to be expanded upon and to save time for adults with careers, a cr-like stat should have been included.

i find it pretty funny tho that i have been yelled at repeatedly about balance and yet, there it is, right in the book like... balance is actually considered in the game. lmfao.

[shadythedevil]

7 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Which isn't something people worry about in this game.

To choose whether or not a particular creature is suitable for the campaign as a player character, the GM should ask three
questions:
M Is a player character version of this creature inappropriate for the campaign setting?
M Will this creature cause difficulties for other players or the course of the campaign?
M Will this creature unbalance the rest of the campaign?

 

THATS VERBATIM FROM THE BOOK

 

dude, do you even have the book?

 

when is the last time you read it?

[shadythedevil]

36 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I don't know how you can be an experienced DM and not realize how much lcharacter evel controls every aspect of D&D.

minimally? when your players are skilled enough, all of that melts away to be honest.

it serves the purpose of being a very rough outline of what can be typically expected. a variable baseline. and in doing so, allows me to not waste time on many fronts.

anything less than cr 3 is for newbs of the system. cr 4 - 9 is beginning levels for my players. cr 10 - 18 is mid levels for my players. cr 19 - 30 is end game challenge for my players.

41 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Adding those feature would inheriently change the game beucase you would have to change the game to make those features work.

straight up nonsense.

[Atgxtg]

14 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

howd you read the whole thread and then not say a single thing about time management and the current system of BRP being time wasting on many fronts? you really read it all?

Becuase the current system doesn't "waste" time.  You constant conflate the subjective (your opinion and wishes) with the objective.

Just because you want to throw together an adventurer faster than you can currenlty do so in BRP doesn't make BRP a bad game. It just doesn't suit your style. A lot of what is taking up your time are things you nroght on yourself. Like trying to balance things. 

 

 

I'll give you a similar time saving example that has nothing to do with GM prep time. 

Way back, Greg Stafford, one of the people behind BRP and the creator of Pendragon noticed a problem. Often people would come onver and say "Hey Greg, let's play one of your games", but Greg had to say no because someone can't learn a new RPG and play it in an hour or two. It takes time to explain chargen, combat, die rolls and all that to new players, especially those who have never played an RPG. 

 

So Greg created Prince Valiant. It a very simple RPG which you can explain to most people, go through cargen and start running in 20 minutes or so. Prince Valaint is very easy to run and play and very quick. It also probably the easiest RPG to balance since everything comes down to tossing coins and counting heads. So you know right away how one character compares to another just by the number of coins they throw. Very easy. And you can do just about anything you can do in Pendragon in Prince Valiant, and with far less prep time. 

But you do so a a price. You don' get the same nuances, detail and depth to things. Not as many attributes, not as many armor or horse types, weapons are all combined into two skills, and most weapons just give +1 coin to combat. There are no cultural or religious modifiers or benefits and in Pendragon, and so forth. That's the price Prince Vlanit is always similar and faster than Pendragon but never quite as nuanced or interesting. That';s the trade off. TO keep the game easy and simple Greg had to simplify and drop stuff.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

14 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

it is like the pizza situation, except im not asking for money back. im asking HOW TO SAVE TIME HOLY FUCK LMFAO.

If you want to save time, stop trying to balance things like in D&D. It's a waste of time.

 

All of the stuff that is wasting your time is stuff that you choose to take on yourself, such as creating your own CR system and trying to add game balancing stuff that won't really work.  If you kneew the game stats well enough to balance them, you wouldn't need a CR rating. And working up a value for every monster and NPC will take up more time that you'll save. 

It's a lot faster just to do soothing like: Bandits 12 hp, 3-pt armor, Broadsword 45%, Bow 35% then to flip though pages or stats looking for the right CR. It will balance better too since you can set those stats realtive to your PCs actuall relevant abilities, and ingore stuff that might factor into a combat rating but are't relevant to the sitation you are going to run. .  

 

14 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

look my dude i think the system is great.

Then why not try to run it as was intended?

Really, why switch system is you are going to try and run it like D&D? You could just run D&D. 

The reason why you are wasting time is because you are spending time trying to do things that aren't really posibble (balance) and not all that important in BRP. We know the Great Trolls aren't balanced with the Ducks and are fine with it. If you were okay with that you wouldn't have to waste time. You could just write something to play.

14 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

 

if you missed the point about being unevolved, i was saying that the system can stay inherently the same while implementing time saving features. the rigidity in thinking here is pretty absurd if you ask me.

And I'm saying that you can't implant a CR type system because it won't work. In order to get something that would sort of work, you'd need to understand the game better, and if you understood the game better you wouldn't need (or want) it.

In D&D you know that a CR 4 encounter won't kill a Level 4 group. You know a CR 6 encounter is more challenging but still something the PCs can phone in. A CR 8 encounter would be a coin toss as to who wins the party or the monsters. A CR 10 encounter should take out the party.

You don't have that kind of ranking here. So there is no point in trying to add a stat that won't work.

THe problem with trying to force one in anyway is that when you get it wrong, and you will get it wrong, you'll end up with a TPK and sit there wondering where it all went wrong. 

 

14 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

you read the whole thread and missed the part where i have extensive experience in various ttrpgs?

No, but I only have your work for how extensive your experience is. I'm sure you think your a great GM, but frankly nothing you have posted has supported your claims.

You claim that most RPGs have something like CR strongly suggests that all the games you have played thus far have been level based games like D&D and it's spin offs. . I know that because I've seen a lot of RPGs and most don't have a stat like CR. All have some guidelines for setting up encounters but few go the CR route. In part because CR only works in Level based RPGs.  and even then it doesn't work very well.

What you appear to be is someone who has run D&D for a long time, taken the D&D methods to heart, and believe that is how all RPGs are. They're not. 

The reason for the facepalms is because you are not our first rodeo. We've gone down this path before with D&D players and it usually doesn't go well. Typically their game doesn't run the way they thought it would and they blame the game system and/or, if they are playing, the GM. They rarely are willing to accept that their beliefs and approach were wrong to start with.

 

 

14 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

mentioning that ive played d&d here and the reactions ive gotten are majorly facepalm. ok dude.

 

Yes, because it is a radically differnt RPG. Bes case scenario you are Michael Jordan going from basketball to baseball. 

Even your examples of how tough you DM indicate that you are used to a much easier and safer fights for the PCs. You obsession with balance reinforces that. 

D&D fights are mostly easy. The typical encounter isn't any sort of real threat to the PCs. THe game is designed that way. It even says so in the DMG. BRP is going to be different. 

 

Look, I've run tons of experienced D&D players who figured they must be good players becuase their charactersin D&D got to high level. But what they failed to realize is that they reason why those characters got to high level was CR. In D&D, since CR ensures balanced ( non-lethal) encounters surviving is also easy. Also, since CR determines XP award, going up in level iis easy too. So getting to high level is just a mattr of the time time it takes to have enough encounter to get the XP. 

So when those players play another game that isn't set up that way, they get killed, and then scapegoat the GM or game system because they are experienced good players so it can't be their fault. I had a pllayer in L5R charge a group of 6 goblins with a starting character. Then he got surprised and angry when things played out the way everyone else expected. That he he got an attack, dropped a goblin,  and then got cut down by the other five goblins. But it wasn't his fault because he was a good gamer having played lots of D&D.

 

14 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

want to condescend some more nerds? we are all playing fantasy games with dice. we are the same if you ask me and i think you look funny on that imaginary high horse lol.

Your're the one on the high horse.

You present youself as some gaming expert and pyschology expert, and then use that as justification to not only ignore the advice that you asked for, but to insult everyone else and thier option.

You claim to be an adult and that you don't want to "waste" your time prepping, as if you are too important and that doing the prep work is somehow beneath you. And you phase that as if your time is more important that the rest of ours, and that we are somehow children.

And remember, we are all here on this thread trying to help you. We don't need to help you. We all have other things we could be doing with our time. Be we wanted to help you, a GM new to BRP, learn the ropes. But you reject any advice, ignore anything that you don't agree with, and act superior and condescending.

You could have disagreed with people and engaged with people but instead you claim superior RPG experience and assume that all the people who have been playing a game for decades all all stupid. 

 

14 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

im asking for a summary stat, stat. an amalgamation stat. and dare i say it, a cr-like stat. i also want to provide fair options beyond humans for my players when they pick races.

Yes, and we've told you you're not going to get one. You should have realized that already. Insulting the fanbase, game system or game authors won't change that. 

Anything similar to CR was removed from the game system decades ago, and no one missed it. We don't need it.

Out of all the people who play the game now, and even including most of the D&D who dipped their toes in, you are the only one who insists on a CR type stat. So it not all that likely that one is going to be added now just to accommodate you. 

That's not a shot at you, either. That is just an assessment of the situation.

So repeatedly asking for one is just wasting your time, which I know you don't want to do.

 

So either learn to run without CR, or make up your own CR stat and hope that it doesn't lead to the TPKs the rest of us are expecting.

[shadythedevil]

7 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Becuase the current system doesn't "waste" time

i already quoted you previously admitting that one takes longer than the other. it wastes my time lol. i dont care about your time. its always been my own time i was concerned about lol.

'l2p' comments are time wasting, as is the suggestion. not having a summary stat is time wasting. frequent tpk's are time wasting.

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

To choose whether or not a particular creature is suitable for the campaign as a player character, the GM should ask three
questions:
M Is a player character version of this creature inappropriate for the campaign setting?
M Will this creature cause difficulties for other players or the course of the campaign?
M Will this creature unbalance the rest of the campaign?

 

THATS VERBATIM FROM THE BOOK

Yes, and that has nothing to do with balancing encounters. If you were more familar with BRP you'd know that.

"Is a player character version of this creature inappropriate for the campaign setting?"

Is not about hit points and game stats but social and cultural problems. For instance you don't bring a Dark Troll into a group of Aldrammi, it would end bad. Or a Lunar character into a group of Orlanthi.

The closest way to explain this in D&D terms is that if you are running a group of Paladins, Celrics and other LG character you don't allow a CE Assassin. 

 

"Will this creature cause difficulties for other players or the course of the campaign?"

Also has nothing to do with combat ability. You see in BRP is something has better combat ability it won't cause difficulties over the course of the campaign, it will just kill the other PCs outright. 

 

Again this is mostly about cultural and social stuff. It's more about diffenceces in culture or religion, they play a factorin most BRPO games and settings. You don't mix dwarves, elves and trolls in RQ. You don't put devout followers of  LAw in the same group as Chasos worshipper sorcerors in Stormbringer. 

 

"Will this creature unbalance the rest of the campaign?"

One again has a lot more to do with social and cultural problems than combat. 

 

THATS VERBATIM FROM THE BOOK

 

Yes and note that it doesn't say a GM can't do any of that, only that they should ask themselves those questions (and presumably come up with answers for them) before deciding if they will do so. Because there is no "one right answer" to any of those questions. It depends on the GM the group and the circumstances. They are just guidelines, not commandments. 

For instace, years ago a fellow GM was writting a RQ torunament adventure for MassConfusion. He put a Humankit and a Zorak Zoran worshipper in the same party. Generally speaking this would be a "no-no" as the two cults hate each other, and party conflict is pretty much assured. But...

• he liked both characters and their cult abilities
• he needed them both to make the adventure work
• it was set in Dorastor, and that is such a hell hole that maybe the two could put aside their differences long enough to go kill off chaos nasties.
• it was a one short tournament adventure, so the peace only had to last for one game session.

So he wrote it with both characters. I wound up running one of the tables and the two characters ended up fighting each other after the finished adventure. So it worked as a one shot. Which was all that was needed. It wouldn't have worked for a campaign though as it would violate the first two guidelines, and said GM wouldn't have done it in a campaign. 

 

And that's something that a CR stat won't tell you. You have to use good judgement. Because a CR rating doesn't know how a GM is going to use something or under what circumstances, or how good the GM is at doing so. 

I've ran games where one character could fly, lift a truck, and was bulletproof, while around was a very good archer who saved up his allowed to make trick arrows. Were they "balanced", hell no. Did it matter? No, because they were a couple of kid superheroes.  So the fact thatt one PC has a STR score 50 points higher than the other was a non-issue. 

It didn't matter with the NPCs either. The standard thieves and robber stats didn't change, nor were that much more of a threat to one PC than the other (Archer boy was very agile and tough to shoot, especially if he shot you first). The boss villains were still tough, because that is what they were supposed to be, and Archer Boy can up with some interesting arrows to deal with superstrong baddies after one flexed his way out of his entangle arrow.

 

None of the potential problems listed applied.

 

But if I were running a D&D game, based around combat encounters. Then those two PCs might not have worked. One guy having 20 points of armor and having a +3d6 damage bonus would be a game change in that sort of game. They would probably still work if I were running because my players tend to want to work together than fight each other. So Tank-Boy makes things easier for Archer-Boy. But if I had a game with a lot of party rivalry that might not work. But I think I could probably make it work. But maybe not every GM could make it work. Or maybe not every GM would want to try and make it work.  But that is their call, not mine.  I wouldn't advise an inexperienced GM to set up such a group, but I wouldn't demand they follow some rule that forbade it.

 

Each GM will set things up differently, according to their own abilities, habits, preferences and those of their players. Unless someone institutes and enforces some sort of rating system to prevent it. Not that they could really enforce it. 

 

I'll give you a good example of a situation that breaks all the guildeines that I still want to run someday.  I want to run a Pendragon campaign where one of the PKs (Player Knights) draws the Sword from the Stone and is revealed to really be King Arthur!

Now doing that would totally derail the standard Pendragon campaign (and all the scripted events) in ways that boggle the mind. Especially if you played Pendragon. It would really toss everyone on it's ear. It wouldn't be easy for the players either. For instance, winning the Battle of Badon as  player King Arthur  is a lot tougher than as a player follower of King Arthur.

But it's okay for me to do that, assuming I consider the ramifications of it and prepare for it properly.

 

The major reasons why I haven't done it yet is that I've yet to finish a campaign yet with the standard timeline and because I told my players about the idea, so it wouldn't have the same impact that I had imagined. On the plus side, my players still remember it and have a bit of hope when they attempt to draw the sword from the stone than they did before I came up with the idea. They never know when I might do it. Frankly, that itself might be a better benefit for the game than if I did do it. 

 

2 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

dude, do you even have the book?

Yes I do. I even have the various books BRP was cobbled from. RuneQuest, Strombringer, Worlds of Wonder, Call of Cthulhu. So you have any experience with any of them? I do.

2 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

 

when is the last time you read it?

Recently enough to still understand it. I also understand why certain rules work the way they do and why certain rules are used with some rules and not with others and that the various Power system are not balanced with each other. I even have a decent idea of what happens if I mix 'n match rules or change them.  I can't claim more than a decent idea on the latter as the game mechanics in BRP are so heavily interlinked that changing one rule can (and usually does) start a domino effect. 

That's what people mean about experience. Anyone can look at something in print. It familiarity and experience that tells you how accurate, important and vital it is to follow what you see. Or it's it's a error, typo, or misprint.

That's why Pendragon 5th edition got fixed. Because all of community people knew the rules were wrong and contacted the author about it, who in turn got the game corrected. If we had just blindly followed what we saw in print Pendragon 5th edition  would suck.

 

Edited June 30 by Atgxtg

[Nozbat]

I've held my peace, Shady.. but you've been dismissive of other peoples views and experience, treated people the way you say you don't want to be treated, you have also been aggressive to people. I ignored that, even when there was comments about 'my group' being made up of psychiatrists and by implication .. better than 'yours'... I held off because it was getting 'personal' and didn't want to add to it

and now we have this ..

2 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

and to save time for adults with careers, a cr-like stat should have been included.

so.. only you (in and of the forum)... are the adult.. with an important career.. who is busy...

I could tell you that I lecture to psychiatrists.... I could tell you that see lots of patients every week.... I could tell you that I am involved in an RCT and research..... I could tell you that I do on-call for emergency MH teams... I could tell you I do voluntary work with people who can't access Health care and can't afford to pay privately... but what's the point of that?

58 minutes ago, shadythedevil said:

i dont care about your time. its always been my own time i was concerned about lol.

You have continually made assumptions throughout the thread about others and their motives, their intelligence and you have shown little empathy or compassion. Assumptions should have no part in how we comport ourselves on a forum with other people who have different thoughts, feelings and behaviours than you. You have no idea of the backgrounds of others or their lived experience and yet you feel you can make pronouncements. I think you (and the others) need to reflect on that.

I'm saddened by the way this thread has gone. 

PS I did agree with you about the RNs.. they are definitely the salt of the earth and worth every pfennig they are paid. 

 

[Peter Fitz]

This is addressed to the forum at large: why are you bothering to keep arguing with this guy? It's pretty clear that he's not going to have his attitude adjusted by anything you say. And also, he seems like kind of a dick, so you're wasting your energy on kind of a dick.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Peter Fitz said:

This is addressed to the forum at large: why are you bothering to keep arguing with this guy? It's pretty clear that he's not going to have his attitude adjusted by anything you say. And also, he seems like kind of a dick, so you're wasting your energy on kind of a dick.

Sheer optimism.

Because sometimes these hardliners do a big 180 degree turn once they try playing the game. It doesn't always happen, but it does happen. And they can often be good gamers after that too. A light bulb goes off or something.

But, your probably right in this case.

Edited July 1 by Atgxtg

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

i already quoted you previously admitting that one takes longer than the other. it wastes my time lol. i dont care about your time. its always been my own time i was concerned about lol.

Well then solve your own problems. 

3 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

'l2p' comments are time wasting, as is the suggestion. not having a summary stat is time wasting. frequent tpk's are time wasting.

You are time wasting.

You ask for advice but refuse to listen to any of it. So why did you ask?

If you are so right and everyone else so wrong, then why did you waste your time and ours by asking us anything? You already know better.

 

And if you really want a CR type stat how come you showed zero interest in any of similar stats the game did have? 

 

[shadythedevil]

3 hours ago, Nozbat said:

'my group' being made up of psychiatrists and by implication .. better than 'yours'... I held off because it was getting 'personal' and didn't want to add to it

if you took it that way, thats on you lol. i love my group of players are they are largely peers in the industry. the point of saying that was to illustrate that my players are smart. a lot of comments being made come from the assumption that players are dumb or that GM's dont know how to build an encounter with appropriate environmental equaling factors and what not.

3 hours ago, Nozbat said:

so.. only you (in and of the forum)... are the adult.. with an important career.. who is busy...

again, weird you took it that way. i dont know any of you personally and i dont really care what any of you do. if you have a ton of time to do prep work, thats great. i used to have a ton of time while in school or when i was a kid. i currently work full time inpatient and outpatient. almost all of my prepping is done between patients. im currently between patient calls. spending the time to get to know the system and blah blah blah is really not feasible, for me.

 

3 hours ago, Nozbat said:

ou have continually made assumptions throughout the thread about others and their motives, their intelligence and you have shown little empathy or compassion.

im sorry i really dont have very much empathy or compassion for people i dont really know, but i think you missed the point and really took a mistaken point personally lol. its not personal my guy.

people have their lives. good for them. im not really trying to know them like that unless i know them like that. i know WAY too many people like that. thousands.

i really dont care about anybody elses time. use it how you want. my point in coming here was recognizing that other systems have clearly made an effort to consider the time spent prepping, which would allude to understanding that we all have a variable amount of time to spend on the hobby with an additional assumption that as adults, we have careers that support the hobby as well as an entire whole other life of shit going on.

 

i also feel a bit disheartened. my expectations were initially very low, because i literally read through the history of people making this argument. then my hopes were raised a bit as the discussion continued. and then they really hit the floor when i realized all of the conversation i was being engaged in was in the vein of getting me to adjust, rather than making the system adjust. thats a silly mission you all gave yourselves and i do think its funny. it was futile. i was looking for the answers i am looking for, not tangential imply i suck at the game, d&d is lame, etc. etc.

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

minimally? when your players are skilled enough, all of that melts away to be honest.

To be honest no it doesn't. Throw a 1st level party into a adventure written for 10th level characters and tell me how well they do.

 

Level is so important that it is the major factor. Yes, somebody doing something stupid (and we all do that from time to time) can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory,but level and basing everything else around it has a major impact on gameplay. It's why D&D can have so many iambuses. Because a CR 2 ambush of a Level 8 party is still a cakewalk for the Level 10 party.

 

That same situationin BRP will probably drop and/or killl at least one of the people being ambushed.

5 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

it serves the purpose of being a very rough outline of what can be typically expected. a variable baseline. and in doing so, allows me to not waste time on many fronts.

It serves it purpose of making sure the party is facing very weak and controlled encounters that don't actually tax their abilities. A CR appropriate challenge only uses 20% of the party's resources. 

5 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

anything less than cr 3 is for newbs of the system. cr 4 - 9 is beginning levels for my players. cr 10 - 18 is mid levels for my players. cr 19 - 30 is end game challenge for my players.

And those numbers don't mean much because you haven't said how large your parties are. CR was designed for a party of four PCs, so if you parties are larger you need a proportional increase in the opposition to maintain balance.

Not does it tell us how you are running the encounters or what type. Do you PCs get the jump on the monsters? Is one side of the other especially vulnerable to something (like how low hit die oppoents will drop when a a fireball is cast). Our old AD&D group used to take out hundreds (I'm not kidding) low HD monsters with "ground level zero" fireballs tossed at point black range into melee. The fireball would kill the monsters, even if they made their save, and at our level and with our saving throws the party would get through the fight faster and lose fewer hit points than if we fougt the monsters.

CR doesn't tell how well your players are doing and how well you are running, only the details can help us figure that out. And we don't even know if you have the CR's right for when you mix monsters into an encounter. 

 

Show us the stats for the PCs and their opponents and explain some of the PCs big successes,  then we will have some idea of how good they are. 

 

I knew groups that killed off all the elder vampires in Vampire the Masterade and all the Gods in the Dieties & Demigods book. They were able to do so not because they were great players, but because they had bad GMs. Ones who just let the PCs pick off their opponents one at a time and who didn't let the survivors band together against the PC threat for "game balance" reasons. So the PCs could kill Odin and none of the other Asgardians did anything about it. 

 

5 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

straight up nonsense.

No, because you don't understand game mechanics very well.

In D&D combat revolves around hit point attrition. fights tend to last awhile as the character hit points get whittled down. If a PC drops they get healed up and a fight isn't even considered a challenge unless the PCs get banged up a bit. So a DM can look at a monster with 100 hp, look at a PC who does 10 points of damage on average and be reasonably confident that the PC will drop the monster in ten hit. Maybe 9 if he rolls good, 11 if not, maybe even 8 or 7 hits. But not in 2 or 3 hits. A DM can work with averages and probablities because hit points are high and criticals are rare. Superior numbers don't mean all that much in D&D since levels give higher level character more hit points and more attacks. 

In BRP, hit points are low, weapon damage is as high or higher than D&D and special success fairly common. So the PC above might  just might be able to drop the monster on one hit. Things like a good damage roll, a high damage bonus, a special success, or a critical success all tend to take someone out with a unparried hit. 

Fights in BRP tend to be short and sweet. Combat tends to be brutal, and that's not just for the NPCs. All the PCs are just one good damage roll away from dropping. And when one PC drops the over run the risk of getting double teamed. In BRP a PC with 100% skill will have a lot more problem with two guys at 50% then a tenth level PC will have with two 5th levels. 

 

So you just don't have the same certianly wit the outcome with throwing slightly inferior opponents against PCs that you get with CR. 

 

 

 

[shadythedevil]

1 hour ago, Peter Fitz said:

This is addressed to the forum at large: why are you bothering to keep arguing with this guy? It's pretty clear that he's not going to have his attitude adjusted by anything you say. And also, he seems like kind of a dick, so you're wasting your energy on kind of a dick.

its true, my attitude will not be adjusted until the system at hand has a developed methodology towards understanding that i have very limited time to prep.

i also find it quite funny that my argument is responded with sentiments of "its been the same for 40 years and we dont change either." take an outside perspective. saying that about pretty much anything in life is probably going to be laughably wrong.

i was hoping for responses like "you should take their chances to hit and average it, and assign a number for competency ranges to hit such as 0 for 0 - 30%, 2 for 31 - 65% and 4 for 66 - 100%. then doing the same for armor, if any armor reduces damage beyond the halfway point of typical damage, such as armor 3 vs d6 dmg, they will be given 1 point for each leading up to halfway, and then 2 points for each past halfway, so that armor 5 vs d6 dmg would be given 7 points which would be added chances to hit. then you would do the same to hp, with any monster having hp more than the average damage each character can do in a round. for example, if you have 4 characters that all do d6 dmg/ round and 3 dmg on average, if focus firing on a monster, monsters with more than 12hp will be given extra difficulty points. for each round of combat that a monster could survive past average damage, they will be given 1 extra difficulty point. a monster with an average to hit of 50%, 4 armor and 18 hp, vs a group of characters with about 12dmg per round on average, will have a difficult point value of 8" basically, a way to sum the stats up so they can be easily compared.

also, i know how i am going to be balancing my non human races. so that doesnt need to be discussed anymore.

[shadythedevil]

2 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

t serves it purpose of making sure the party is facing very weak and controlled encounters that don't actually tax their abilities. A CR appropriate challenge only uses 20% of the party's resources. 

wooosh

[shadythedevil]

9 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Show us the stats for the PCs and their opponents and explain some of the PCs big successes,  then we will have some idea of how good they are. 

sure. i knew my players were well outside of the typical many many years ago when they ended a campaign in an instant. back when 5e first came out, the first adventure was hoard of the dragon queen and we played that. during the course of the adventure, they are given a flying castle. they knew of the showdown at the well of dragons and huddled. they flew their dragon castle over there and said "we fly the castle miles into the sky, cast teleport on ourselves to a place far far away and let the castle drop." the entire region was destroyed, including all good and bad dragons. essentially, they caused an extinction level event on par with chicxulub.

i started giving them only deadly encounters when 4 of them as level 3 wandered into an illithid layer accidentally and decimated it. first, they ran out of the passage the came in, with henchmen chasing. they cast grease and the first wave mostly slip and fall, easily picked off. the illithid becomes aware, tells his henchmen to hide and wait throughout the cave system. the players wait and when nobody is coming through the check point, they send in bait scouts. various measures are taken and put in place so that the scout/ bait can get out without dying, leading chasing monsters into characters with actions prepped. henchmen are goblins, humans, bugbears, intellect devourers. the illithid see's how things are going and tells remaining henchmen to stay and protect him in his immediate vicinity. players reach the last room. illithid sends henchmen. players cast grease. focus fire illithid. pick off remaning henchmen slipping about. the first wave of henchmen was cr 4. second waves, cr 5 and 6. boss battle was cr 10. some players nearly died. it was fun. i expected a TPK.

since then, 0 hp has been dead. all encounters are geared towards many many levels above where the players are at. i havent actually played d&d with them since curse of strahd. that was like.. 5 or 6 years ago now?

[Susimetsa]

17 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

i do have something that I could share, but i am rather reluctant to do that here.

i am reluctant, because it will be picked apart. there is probably a lot wrong with it. ive also not play tested with it, as i am still keying hexes for my hexcrawl.

That's understandable - creating a system like that will need playtesting to see if it works. And eyeballing such a system without playtesting (as we would be able to do) will certainly produce more questions than answers. I'd hope those questions would be posed in a friendly and supportive manner, however.

Unfortunately, my time is also limited, so I would not be able to play-test the system - especially since my version of BRP has a completely different combat system (that I'm still play-testing).

Therefore, if you want to share your system in a slightly more prepared state, it might be better to wait until you have had a chance to playtest it and become familiar with the system in general. There have been good points and starting points for such a system presented in this thread that could be considered for inclusion.

17 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

"Some skills may be commonly taught
and used within this culture as a part of socialization and
common education. At your gamemaster’s discretion,
these skills might gain a small bonus. If bonuses to skills
are used, it is recommended that every culture gain equal
bonuses, though to a different set of skills."

that is pretty much what i was asking, but i was asking as it related to the characteristic stats. so i have decided to keep all playable race characteristics within a 3d6. if a particular race is really adept in a certain characteristic, they will get 12 + d6. if a particular race is greatly lacking in a particular characteristic, they get 3 + d6. so basically keeping it equal, but giving some max rolls or min rolls here and there.

Note that that section talks about cultures, rather than species. At its simplest, it might mean the different sets of skills that a youngster growing up in a city vs. a youngster growing up at a farm learns. In Runequest, this has been taken a lot further with a variety of regional cultures.

For different species, I'd personally first try to balance the stat generation in some way - trying to see if it is possible to give someone a bonus in, say, Strength, and counterbalance it by decreasing their Intelligence. This is not always possible, of course, without ruining the concept of the species that one might have in mind. So, the next step is to see if some other kinds of factors might provide balance (biological needs, communication abilities, values, attitudes, cultural taboos etc.)

In the case of the plant-people I deviced above, I might give them (going by Runequest characteristics here):

STR: 3D6-2
CON: 3D6-2
SIZ: 4+2D6
DEX: 3D6
INT: 8+2D6
POW: 3D6+2
CHA: 6+2D6

These are already balanced to a degree. But then I'd think about the culture or cultures that this species lives in (simplest would be to give them a single culture, but that would be disappointing, given that humans have many, many cultures to choose from) and consider the possible early childhood / teenage skill development that they might receive in their cultures. Since the characteristics alone cannot ensure that this species will be highly skilled in arts, all of these cultural bonuses would need to provide bonuses to certain arts (e.g., Sing) and communication skills (e.g., Orate, Charm) in addition to the skills that they need in their everyday lives.

And, still, mere characteristic rolls and skill bonuses are not going to make this species interesting. Therefore they need to have facets that make them _different_. That's where their sleep cycles, appearance, feeding mechanism etc. come into play. And, naturally, their place in the world, history and their attitude towards other species etc. should be elaborated on.

Overall, I think creating interesting species for the players to choose from is the most challenging part of creating a fantasy or sci-fi game world. In too many games they are just visual differences in otherwise samey options (a la Star Trek) with a couple of special abilites tossed in.

Edited July 1 by Susimetsa
Nasty hobbi... typoses!

[Nozbat]

10 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

im sorry i really dont have very much empathy or compassion for people i dont really know

Obviously and worrying. As you know, empathy is the ability to take on another's perspective, to understand, feel and respond to their experience. It is not only in social processes but cognitive and affective processes too. Who do you know really? 

10 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

i think you missed the point and really took a mistaken point personally lol.

I didn't miss the point... you admitted little empathy and I don't take things personally.. I was just observing and commenting on your behaviour

All behaviour is purposeful. It has both meaning and function. When you say things people interpret them and as you know, interpretation tends to be subjective, whereas the function is generally objective and it was that I was commenting on. We all have a responsibility to act with a level of probity and to understand how what we write (or say) may impact on others. You know that as a clinician. 

But put that aside. I think what you're trying to do is interesting and I'd actually like to see it, after you play test it. It's not something I feel I'm likely to use but it's another tool as a GM.

I'd said before, I'm interested in creating narratives and memories in my games. Not everyone agrees and I don't expect them to. I find moral dilemmas much more interesting and 'social' combat rather more engaging but am not averse to having a sword fight. Not all combat needs to end in death, there are many other ways to continue the story after a defeat.

You and your players seem to have a style which works for you which is great. We play RPGs to have fun not to argue on forums and trade insults about my parent being bigger than your parent.

So when you have it written up and play tested, publish it here (or on whatever forum you wish). Most people are generally generous with their time and like to see new endeavours. 

I will look forward to seeing what you do with it

[Atgxtg]

13 hours ago, shadythedevil said:

wooosh

Read the DMG. It's all in there. CR is designed to whittle down hit points and after every 13 encounter the party levels. That is how D&D 3+ has been designed to work. THe authors were upfront about that. 

But you can't whittle down PCs in BRP becuase combat doen't work the same way. Shooting someone in BRP doesn't take away dome of their resources, it disables limbs and kills them.

[radmonger]

Hence the baseline position is that all enemies should be CR 1; killing one enemy whittles away the numbers on their side by 1.

This can be refined slightly so that some exceptional foes might be CR 2/3, and a dragon perhaps CR 5. But you don't really need that extra level of detail to be comparably accurate to D&D CR.

An easy encounter is one where the PCs outnumber the enemies; a challenging one the opposite.

The mistake the OP is making is not that CR can't exist in BRP, or that it isn't useful. It is that different combatants need to have different CRs.

Edited July 1 by radmonger