BRP Combat Help. Example?

[saintricardo]

Hello, I have read through the BRP Rule book and a couple of examples.  One in the rule book where a thief runs away from combat and one in the quick rules where a few explores fight zombies.  However, I still have a few questions about how combat works.  Sorry if these have been asked and answered before but after spending a while searching I am still lost. An example would really help but I will list what I am confused about.

 

1. Using the normal rules with dex ranks, how would a character move then attack and how would a character attack then move?  
2. Listed under how ranged attacks work it states if the target is moving fast the attacker gets a 50% penalty.  What is moving fast?
3. Can a character with a combat skill at 75% attack more then once in a round? What if its a light pistol? Heavy Pistol?
4. Using the Strike Ranks how does moving work?  
5. When calculating a characters % of a critical, special, or fumble do you round up or down?

Thanks for all the help. 

 

[Flesh Man]

1. page 190

2. Target moved > 1/2 MOV or greater (16-29 for humans), I guess.

3. Page 198 but that is generally for melee skills 100%+ not 75%. This for attacks when not using strike ranks which is covered on page 201. For guns see page Attack page 190. A light pistol fires on DEX,DEX -5 and DEX -10. Medium Pistol on DEX and DEX -5. Heavy Pistol on DEX. Skill does not come into it. For rates of fire look under the Attk columns on page 397.

4. pg 201 For each 3m of movement before a character becomes engaged add +1 to strike rank with no movement after engagement. To move again in subsequent turns  you would have to disengage (no attack and take no hits during the turn of disengagement.). In Runequest 3, where this comes from, you could attack on the move by moving at 2m / sr and attack at any time after DEX strike rank + Weapon Strike rank (ignore SIZ Strike rank).

5. For special and critical Page 175  top left specifically stated as normal rounding  (>= .5 up, < 0.5 round down). Page 173 for fumble but rounding is not specified there for some reason)

 

[saintricardo]

Thanks for the quick response.  However, I am still a little confused.

Example.  John has DEX 10 and Light Pistols 75%  Bob has Dex 15 Heavy pistol 75%.  At the start of combat John announces he will shoot at bob.  Bob announces he will run towards John then Shoot.  Bob goes first because he has higher DEX and moves at half movement 15.  Bob drops down to DEX 8 (1/2 of 15 rounded up).  John acts next on DEX 10 and shoots Bob.  Lets say bob is now in point blank range so Johns attack with his Light Pistol is easy however Bob moved so it would give him a -50% penalty.  Would they cancel or would John be shooting his light pistol at %100 (75 base double for easy to 150 then minus 50 for bob moving) or would the penalty go first so 50% (75 base -50 for bob moving then double for easy.)    Either way lets say John misses who would go next?  What if John wanted to move after his attack when would he act?  On DEX 9 or DEX 5?  I assume that Bob can act on his DEX 8 and attack.  Lets say Bob misses but with a heavy pistol is says attack 2 so could Bob attack again on DEX 3? The light pistol says attack 1 so I assume only 1 attack per round.

Thanks

I bought the Aces High supplement to run a wild west campaign and am a little confused in how combat works.  Also, in the Aces High supplement weapons do not have an attack rating only a Strike Rank which leads me to believe they want you to use the Strike rank optional rules.  

 

 

[Flesh Man]

Using DEX Ranks

>Example.  John has DEX 10 and Light Pistols 75%  Bob has Dex 15 Heavy pistol 75%.  

>At the start of combat John announces he will shoot at bob.  

>Bob announces he will run towards John then Shoot.  

He can't run and then shoot unless you move 5m's or less.pg 190 you get 1 action per turn.  If that is the case on DEX 15 he moves up to 5m's then fires at 75% or 150% if he is withing point blank range. That is end of his turn.

DEx 10 John fires his first shot.  As for his chance to hit pg 177 2nd Column under the circumstantial modifier "Remember to apply circumstantial modifiers after
any action difficulty multipliers have been applied, not before. Circumstantial modifiers should not be divided or doubled, and should be applied to the final skill rating or characteristic roll"  If he only  moved 5m's I would not apply a -50%.  So if Bob is at pointblank range then John is rolling against 150%. otherwise 75%.

He shoots again at DEX rank 5 with the same chance as before.  That is the end of the combat round as he has does not have enough DEX left to fire a third shot.

 

With strikes ranks the first attack with a 1/sr firearm takes place on DEX SR (in the case of these two 3) then again at DSR strikes ranks later, and keep going until you run out of strike ranks.  Movement really screws this up as strike ranks  where not designed for firearms look at page 201. Under movement there you add 1SR for every 3m meters of movement but you do not start moving until your DSR.  So if John Moves 9 meters he either takes his first shot at 6 or 9 depending on how you read it.  Under Combining Actions you may allow him to shoot  at  the same time as moving up to 21 meters  with caps on skill and/or modifiers. 

 

 

[Flesh Man]

Another version of DEX ranks based on The QuickStart rules and pg 227 in the last paragraph of Missile Fire While Moving of "As noted in Chapter Six: Combat, a
character can move for half of a combat round, and then throw, fire, or shoot a bow in the other half, at the appropriate DEX rank."

On

Dex 15 Bob Moves

DEX 10 John shoots

DEX 8 John shoots if he moved 6 - 15 Meters

DEX 5 John shoots again

DEX 4  John shoots if he moved 16 - 29 Meters

 

Another versions of the strike rank method

Based on DSR of 3 and moving and shooting at the same time, I would slow him down to 2 m per SR and apply a modifier to hit..

Move on each strike from 3 -10  The first strike rank he can start firing is 3 then on 6 and 9. But I think 1/SR is way to generous for single action revolvers.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2016 by waltshumate

[saintricardo]

Thank a lot for the help.  I think I understand how Combat works now.  It seems with the DEX based combat characters will be able to attack with a ranged weapon less often then with Strike Rank method.  

 

With Strike Rank method characters who dodge/parry still suffer the -30% penalty for the 2nd dodge/parry and -60% penalty for the 3rd, etc.  Making it easier to get hit with Strike Rank then it is with the DEX based combat.

 

[Flesh Man]

5 hours ago, saintricardo said:

Thank a lot for the help.  I think I understand how Combat works now.  It seems with the DEX based combat characters will be able to attack with a ranged weapon less often then with Strike Rank method.  

 

With Strike Rank method characters who dodge/parry still suffer the -30% penalty for the 2nd dodge/parry and -60% penalty for the 3rd, etc.  Making it easier to get hit with Strike Rank then it is with the DEX based combat.

 

Not sure where you got that from, dodge and parry arenot effected by the strike rank system.

[saintricardo]

On page 200 it says "The only other limitation to the use of dodges and parries is the normal modifier for subsequent usage of either skill"  I took that as a character would suffer the cumulative -30%

 

So if using the Strike Ranked method and/or DEX Ranks we have 3 characters 15m away from each other.  

John has DEX 10 and Light Pistols 75%

Bob has DEX 15 and Heavy Pistol 75%

and a wolf that has Move 13 DEX 16 SR 2 Size SR 2 and bite 1d8, 65%, SR 3 

 

John declares he will shoot at the wolf.

Bob declares he will shoot at the wolf

The wolf declares he will charge John

 

I am assuming the wolf will dodge all the hits.

I ran this through my head several times and I keep coming up with different ways it could work.  

I would greatly appreciate a 1 or 2 round walk through using Strike Ranks and DEX Ranks methods.  

 

Thank you so much,. 

 

 

[Flesh Man]

You are way over complicating this, are you intent in actually running a game or is this some sort of math. challenge? Apply the rules in a real combat and if you feel you got something wrong review the rules and change things next session.  Sitting around trying to figure out every possible circumstance and option is a sure route to madness. 
Now this assumes they are using double action revolvers or semi automatics. 
Strike Rank 2  Wolf at 15m's wolf moves 3m's (You start moving on your Dex SR) Wolf is at 12m's
Strike Rank 3  Wolf if is at 12m's (In Dex order) Wolf moves 3m's ( wolf at 9m's), 
    Bob shoots , John Shoots
      if a hit is scored the wolf can dodge it can only dodge missiles (especially firearms) once per turn see Dodge pg 191
      If the wolf is hit but not killed you need to determine if it spends the rest of the round recover, given a strike rank     penalty or ignores it
Strike Rank 4 Wolf at 9m's Wolf moves 3m's Wolf now at  6m's
Strike Rank 5 wolf at 6m's 5 Wolf moves 3m's Wolf  at 3m's
Strike Rank6  Wolf at Wolf moves 3m's    Wolf at 0m 
     now at this point you could allow the wolf to do some sort of knockback attack. It cannot do any other     attack as it     moved for  5 strike ranks added to Melee SR 8 that is 13 way past 10 and nothing carries over to the next mele round,
    Bob shoots, John shoots both at point blank.
Strike  Rank 7 Nothing
Strike  Rank 8 Nothing
Strike  Rank 9      Bob Shoots, John Shoots both at point blank.  But they are now engaged in melee missiles are now difficult to use and they  would be at their normal 75% (see Firing into Combat pg 224).If the wolf did not dodge before it can make one dodge now.

 

Have you tried contacting the author of Ace's High? his email address is in the book and he is on this forum MrJealousy

 

Edited July 20, 2016 by waltshumate

[MrJealousy]

On 18/07/2016 at 5:00 PM, saintricardo said:

I bought the Aces High supplement to run a wild west campaign and am a little confused in how combat works.  Also, in the Aces High supplement weapons do not have an attack rating only a Strike Rank which leads me to believe they want you to use the Strike rank optional rules. 

Aces High was written with the assumption of using Strike Ranks. But if you assume Derringers are Light Revolvers (Attk 2) then Pistols are Medium and Heavy (both Attk 1).

 

Thanks for buying my Mono! Hope you enjoy it

[saintricardo]

I am hoping to run a campaign but feel lost when it comes to combat.

Example using the above characters and DEX ranks.

John declares he will shoot at the wolf.

Bob declares he will shoot at the wolf

The wolf declares he will charge/engage  John

 

The wolf would normal go on DEX 16 but because the wolf is going to move 15m the wolf will act at 1/2 his Dex so 8.  So does the wolf move 15m on DEX 16 then get to act again on DEX 8 or does the wolf move on DEX 8 and does nothing else this round?

Bob will shoot the wolf on DEX 15.  

A)  If the wolf has not moved yet then Bob will have a 75% chance of hitting.

B)  If the wolf moved already and is engaged with John then Bob will have a 55% (75% base -20% for shooting into engaged combat)  also if Bob is successful there will be a 50% chance to hit John or the Wolf. 

Lets say on either one of those attacks Bob hits the wolf and the wolf successfully dodges.  using the wolfs base dodge chance.

Now John may shoot at the wolf.  

A)  If the wolf has not moved yet John will have a 75% to hit. 

B)  If the wolf has already moved and is engaged with John then John will have a 150% chance to hit (the attack will be considered easy because the target is in point blank range and the ranged weapon is a firearm)

Lets say on either on of those attacks John hits the wolf and the wolf will try and dodge will the wolf be at 75% or 45% (-30% for each dodge attempt after the first)

Now its the wolfs turn on DEX 8

A)  Will the wolf now move to engage John on DEX 8

B)  Will the wolf already be engaged with John and be able to attack

C)  Will the wolf already be engaged with John and not be able to attack or do anything else this round

Now its Johns 2nd shot on DEX 5

John shoots the wolf in point black range with 150% chance to hit. 

 

 

[MrJealousy]

I would have the Wolf begin to move on 16 and get its next action, a bite?, on 8.

Depending on how far the wolf moved determines whether it has to move again, or whether it is in bite range, or whether it can get into bite range in 5m.

If the wolf is gnawing on John, then John has a normal chance to hit (easy because of range, difficult because of being engaged in combat).

If Bob wants to shoot into the combat, then it gets funny. If he goes for the wolf he has a -20% chance to hit and has to do the 50/50 or Luck thing to see what he actually hits. If Bob is a bit of a sadist and isn't bothered what he hits he gets a +5%  to hit and still has to do the 50/50 or Luck thing to see what he has hit.

Looks like you've got the gist of it though. Apart from, you can't normally dodge bullets!

[saintricardo]

Thank you MrJealousy for the feed back.  I think I got the gist of the DEX method except for a couple questions. 

If the wolf is 15m away from john and moves 15m reducing its DEX to half and would begin its move on 16 can it attack on DEX 8?  

I have been reading mix ideas if a character can move 15m and attack in one round.  

And what is considered moving fast in reference to getting a penalty to being shot at. 

 

Thanks again

Edited July 20, 2016 by saintricardo

[saintricardo]

The example I was using I am just using rules straight from BRP core book.  Not Aces High.  Well i guess the stats from the wolf were from aces high but I just wanted to know how dex based combat works then how strike ranks work.  

 

I may have some specific questions about aces high I hope you don't mind me asking. 

[saintricardo]

8 hours ago, waltshumate said:

You are way over complicating this, are you intent in actually running a game or is this some sort of math. challenge? Apply the rules in a real combat and if you feel you got something wrong review the rules and change things next session.  Sitting around trying to figure out every possible circumstance and option is a sure route to madness. 
Now this assumes they are using double action revolvers or semi automatics. 
Strike Rank 2  Wolf at 15m's wolf moves 3m's (You start moving on your Dex SR) Wolf is at 12m's
Strike Rank 3  Wolf if is at 12m's (In Dex order) Wolf moves 3m's ( wolf at 9m's), 
    Bob shoots , John Shoots
      if a hit is scored the wolf can dodge it can only dodge missiles (especially firearms) once per turn see Dodge pg 191
      If the wolf is hit but not killed you need to determine if it spends the rest of the round recover, given a strike rank     penalty or ignores it
Strike Rank 4 Wolf at 9m's Wolf moves 3m's Wolf now at  6m's
Strike Rank 5 wolf at 6m's 5 Wolf moves 3m's Wolf  at 3m's
Strike Rank6  Wolf at Wolf moves 3m's    Wolf at 0m 
     now at this point you could allow the wolf to do some sort of knockback attack. It cannot do any other     attack as it     moved for  5 strike ranks added to Melee SR 8 that is 13 way past 10 and nothing carries over to the next mele round,
    Bob shoots, John shoots both at point blank.
Strike  Rank 7 Nothing
Strike  Rank 8 Nothing
Strike  Rank 9      Bob Shoots, John Shoots both at point blank.  But they are now engaged in melee missiles are now difficult to use and they  would be at their normal 75% (see Firing into Combat pg 224).If the wolf did not dodge before it can make one dodge now.

 

Have you tried contacting the author of Ace's High? his email address is in the book and he is on this forum MrJealousy

 

Thanks for the example.  sorry I missed it before.

 

If Bob is using a Heavy Pistol from BRP and John is using a Light Pistol from BRP

A missile attack is made at the attackers DEX Rank only.  Thats why Bob and John shoot on Strike Rank 3. After that do they always get another attack 3 strike ranks away or is that based of the DEX rank.  

For example if Bob has 16 DEX he would shoot on Strike Rank 2 would he shoot again on Strike Rank 4, 6, 8, 10 or on 2, 5, 8?

Strike Rank 6 you mention the wolf can not attack because it would be at 13 which I understand.  However, you mention something that the wolf might be able to do a knockback attack.  Is that in the BRP rules?  

A quick summary of both examples.

DEX Ranks.

John with a Light Pistol is able to shoot twice in the first round.  Both shots are after the wolf has moved

Bob with a Heavy Pistol is able to shoot once in the first round  Both shots are after the wolf has moved

The wolf who is 15m away from John and/or Bob can only move into melee "Engaged" position with John or Bob and NOT attack in the first round

Strike Ranks

John with a Light Pistol is able to shoot 3 times in the first round.  Once before the wolf could reach him 

Bob with a Heavy Pistol is able to shoot 3 times in the first round   Once before the wolf could reach him

The wolf who is 15m away from John and/or Bob can only move into melee "Engaged" Position with John, or Bob and NOT attack in the first round

 

The biggest thing I am having trouble understanding is that the wolf can only move 15m and not attack is that correct?  I understand why with strike ranks but not with DEX Ranks.  

Is there a way to Charge move more then 5m and attack?  With either system?

 

Thanks

[Questbird]

32 minutes ago, saintricardo said:

The biggest thing I am having trouble understanding is that the wolf can only move 15m and not attack is that correct?  I understand why with strike ranks but not with DEX Ranks.  

Is there a way to Charge move more then 5m and attack?  With either system?

How far the wolf can move and still attack is based on its MOV. So some fast creatures would be able to move further while still attacking.

The wolf is an animal and doesn't know about guns but it knows how to attack: its action is to charge John as fast as it can and eat him. Whether it can attack in the same round as it charges depends on its speed (MOV) and the distance between it and John.

I think something can move its full MOV as a single action (the wolf in this case) or move  up to half it's MOV and still attack -- but later in the round, represented by the DEX rank penalty. So if the wolf can move 15m and John is 15m away all it can do is charge into battle and attack next round. If John is only 7-8m away, the wolf can charge and bite. Meanwhile John and Bob have a chance to shoot it (twice each) before it gets there.

In the more complicated case where the wolf is in striking range, whether Bob and John's second shots hit the wolf while running or while savaging John depend on the DEX ranks. (Bob: 15, Wolf: 16, John: 10)

Counting down the DEX ranks, assuming a 5 DEX rank penalty between actions:

16: The wolf starts to charge toward John

15: Bob shoots his first shot at the moving wolf (range is < 8m) 

10: John takes his first shot at the wolf (range is < 8m or maybe point blank, depending on ref's call)

10: Bob gets a second shot at the wolf (range is < 8m or maybe point blank, depending on ref's call)

8: The wolf (assuming it didn't get dropped by Bob or John) reaches John and attacks him

5: If still alive John may be able to take his second shot at the wolf (as Mr Jealousy mentioned) at normal chance

Edited July 21, 2016 by Questbird
Changed Wolf action to DEX rank 8 from DEX rank 11

[saintricardo]

 

46 minutes ago, Questbird said:

think something can move its full MOV as a single action (the wolf in this case) or move  up to half it's MOV and still attack -- but later in the round, represented by the DEX rank penalty. So if the wolf can move 15m and John is 15m away all it can do is charge into battle and attack next round. If John is only 7-8m away, the wolf can charge and bite. Meanwhile John and Bob have a chance to shoot it (twice each) before it gets there

That helps a lot.  For some reason I was under the impression that if you move at all beyond 5m you can not attack.  This makes much more sense now.  

However, the way I read it on page 190 under Move  and page 181 under Movement Rates is a character with base 10 move/meters is walking and in combat a character can run at 30m as his/her action.  They could also move at half (6-15m) and act at half dex.  

Another question I have though is what about Strike Ranks.  Does the speed of the character/animal change how many meters they can move per strike rank.  A human with move rate of 10 can move 3 meters per strike rank.  I assume its based of 30 meters in 10 strike ranks.  So if a wolf has move 13 it could move 4 meters per strike rank (wolf base move 13, 39 for running 13 times 3,  39 divided by 10 ranks is 3.9 so 3.9 meters per rank rounded up to 4)

If this sounds right then I think I got it.  LOL 

Thanks for all the help everyone.  

 

On a side note MrJealousy I recently purchased Aces High Devils Gulch and Aces high New Mexico.  I plan to run a campaign in similar theme to a board game Shadows of Brimstone.  Have you made or know of any more resources that would add to the setting?  Thanks

 

[MrJealousy]

In some cases you do have to be a bit flexible with the rules I would probably let a wolf charge in and bite later in the combat round because if it doesn't get to bite this round it would probably get blown away before it becomes a threat! I always treat rules as guidelines, and frequently bend them to fit my expectations.

But it does look to me like you have SR and movement right.

As for additional resources, there's loads of stuff on the internet...

I found this a bit useful..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2923920/United-monsters-America-Infographic-reveals-strange-beasts-captured-nation-s-imagination.html

And Joe R Lansdale has written a number of excellent western books, top of my list would be Deadmans Road, or try to get hold of his Jonah Hex comics, also very excellent!

Chaosium have a good weird western book too http://www.chaosium.com/edge-of-sundown/

There are some pretty good movies to watch out for too. I really like The Long Riders, a non mythical flick about the James Younger gang http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081071/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1. I did a write up of them on my website... http://www.aceshighrpg.co.uk/download/AH_Extraordinary People_James-Younger.pdf

Purgatory is pretty interesting too http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0158131/

There's a big long list of inspirational stuff in the back of the AH and the AH:NM books.

I hadn't heard of Shadows of Brimstone, might have to check it out. Thanks!

Edited July 21, 2016 by MrJealousy
added link

[Flesh Man]

On 7/21/2016 at 1:44 AM, saintricardo said:

Thanks for the example.  sorry I missed it before.

 

If Bob is using a Heavy Pistol from BRP and John is using a Light Pistol from BRP

A missile attack is made at the attackers DEX Rank only.  Thats why Bob and John shoot on Strike Rank 3. After that do they always get another attack 3 strike ranks away or is that based of the DEX rank.  

For example if Bob has 16 DEX he would shoot on Strike Rank 2 would he shoot again on Strike Rank 4, 6, 8, 10 or on 2, 5, 8?

Strike Rank 6 you mention the wolf can not attack because it would be at 13 which I understand.  However, you mention something that the wolf might be able to do a knockback attack.  Is that in the BRP rules?  

A quick summary of both examples.

DEX Ranks.

John with a Light Pistol is able to shoot twice in the first round.  Both shots are after the wolf has moved

Bob with a Heavy Pistol is able to shoot once in the first round  Both shots are after the wolf has moved

The wolf who is 15m away from John and/or Bob can only move into melee "Engaged" position with John or Bob and NOT attack in the first round

Strike Ranks

John with a Light Pistol is able to shoot 3 times in the first round.  Once before the wolf could reach him 

Bob with a Heavy Pistol is able to shoot 3 times in the first round   Once before the wolf could reach him

The wolf who is 15m away from John and/or Bob can only move into melee "Engaged" Position with John, or Bob and NOT attack in the first round

 

The biggest thing I am having trouble understanding is that the wolf can only move 15m and not attack is that correct?  I understand why with strike ranks but not with DEX Ranks.  

Is there a way to Charge move more then 5m and attack?  With either system?

 

Thanksn  gave 

I don't think you where given any examples where the wolf  could not attack. in my first respose i gave you to the two guys shooting I stated that you could not attack after moving more than 5m's.  But after taking another looki I stated that was not the case . In fact the only thing the seems to be actions are attacks and full 30m movement and use of powers/spells. Aiming isn't and preparing weapons are not.

30 METERS OF MOVEMENT NO ATTACK DODGE AND PARRY ONLY

16-29 METERS OF MOVEMENT ATTACK ON 1/4 DEX

6-15 METERS OF MOVEMENT ATTACK ON 1/2 DEX

Regarding strike ranks the next shot is dex sr strike ranks later if the weapon does not need to be reloaded. The next shot for bows would be on dsr + 3. I don.t think you will ever get strike ranks to work as you are missing the rules for things like attacking while moving and the strike rank movement rates for non-humans.  I think the movement rate for wolves is 7.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2016 by waltshumate

[soltakss]

In the games I run, I am very flexible with this kind of thing. I play that movement costs SRs, so you can move and do other things, it just slows down when the other things happen.

I wouldn't apply the rules too rigidly, they are meant to help, not hinder, the flow of a game.

[Atgxtg]

On 7/21/2016 at 1:12 PM, MrJealousy said:

In some cases you do have to be a bit flexible with the rules I would probably let a wolf charge in and bite later in the combat round because if it doesn't get to bite this round it would probably get blown away before it becomes a threat!

What's wrong with the wolf getting blown away? If a wolf had to move 15m to get to a pair of armed human's I'd expect the humans to get a few shots off before the wolf would be able to bite.