Lot of Questions about Maniria

[Nevermet]

Because of when I got into Glorantha, Maniria was "my" setting, even more than Sartar or anywhere else, thanks to Blood Over Gold right after I got into things. I recently got back into Glorantha, bought a PDF of the Guide, and loved it immensely. I have several of questions about Maniria as it stands now.  Most are questions about what is canon or what is in print about a particular issue, though there are a few questions that amount to me asking "exactly how idiosyncratic is my Glorantha?"

 

I am of course aware the answer "It's a certain way if you want it to be" is always an option, but I believe firmly in the value of structure as a source of creativity, and I like to know what's been written, and what's the current version of things.  Thanks!

 

And now, the long list of questions:

 

I: Orlanthi

My first set of questions is about the Orlanthi culture of Maniria.  Is there a culturally relevant umbrella term for the Ditali, Solanthi, Nimistori, and Maldros?  Manirian?  Wenelian?

 

Second, how different are they from Heortling / Sartarite Orlanthi in terms of religion? A straight question here is what is the current state of Entru?  Is he affiliated with animals in general now, or specifically pigs/boars?  Did he have priests or spirit talkers?

 

As a piece of speculation, what is the possibility that Manirian heritage includes the Helerings, a tribe separate from the Vingkotlings?  It has the mountain where Heler surrendered to Orlanth, and its residents ticked off the water gods enough that a beautiful city got sunk and trapped, but not destroyed.

 

And finally, are there still Haranding clans tucked away various places, screaming "freedom!" at irregular intervals?

 

 

II: Western

I also have some questions about the Slontan heritage of Maniria.

 

First, where did the Malkioni kingdoms in SW Maniria come from?  I ask because overland routes at that time were blocked by elven forests.  I also doubt that they came with Arkat who had already become an Orlanthi before liberating Maniria.  Were they colonists from Sheshnela or somewhere else?  Any info on why they came?

 

Second, there are polities that are remnants of Slontos: Kaxtorplose, Ramalia, Handra partially, and I'm guessing Khorst.  

How similar do people think religion is in those places?  Are the Slontans of Handra worshipping the same way as the people in Kaxtorplose?  Is Ramalia just an "evil and proud of it" version of Slonton style Malkioni?

 

Regarding Handra, I'm just curious what's been published and/or is canon.  I own the Tradetalk issue, but I feel a large overhaul of that info is necessary after the GTG.  I'm assuming, however, that the religion is an idiosyncratic form of henotheism,  and the governmental structure is still some sort of council of guilds and temples.

 

And that brings up my last question: Kaxtorplose survives thanks to pilgrims.  Who are these pilgrims and where are they from?

 

 

III: Geography

I have 2 geography questions about Manira, and they both involve the Mislari Mountains.

 

First:  what is Ramor Mountain?  I ask because it has an illumination rune on the map, and as far as I can tell, it isn't mentioned ANYWHERE.  Anybody have info?

 

And Second:  other than trolls who want to eat elves, why would anyone want to find the one lost pass through the Mislari Mountains?

 

 

IV: Hero wars

My questions regarding the hero wars in Maniria revolve most around the reforestation plans by the elves, since I didn't know anything about this before I read the GTG.

 

As I look at the map of Maniria, it looks pretty forested overall.  But I know there's more here than just planting trees.  Am I correct in thinking this is about covering the entire region in dense, (magically created) old growth forest that is all perfectly integrated into Aldrya's song?  Also, would I be correct in thinking they want to push humanity into a simple existence that would make them less destructive (hunter-gatherer lifestyle with minimal agriculture or industry, etc.)?

 

 

V: The Loper People

My last set of questions are about the Loper People , aka the  Zaranistangi.  Was their magic rune or spirit based? What does a loper beast look like?  And third, are the blue moon worshipping fisherman leftovers from the Lopers?

Edited August 16, 2016 by Nevermet

[Jeff]

OK, the source for all canonical discussions is the Guide to Glorantha. YGMV, but it may also get contradicted in official publications. Blood Over Gold and Tradetalk are wildly non-canonical and not even recommended reading for writers.

1. The Esrolians call them the Western Barbarians (because although their language is Theyalan, it is not mutually intelligible with Esrolian - in RQ terms you can speak Western Barbarian tongues at 1/5th your Esrolian. In comparison, you can speak Heortling at 1/2 your Esrolian.). Lhankor Mhy types call the eastern tribes Wenelians, and the western tribes Manirians, or sometimes call them all Manirians.

The Orlanthi pantheon of Orlanth, Ernalda, and Esrola are the primary gods, with the Esrolian Ernalda cult particularly influential. Issaries is also broadly worshiped, especially by the Trader Princes. Heler is an ancestor and fertility god. Veskarthan (Lodril) and his children are also worshiped by many of the tribes. 

The Solanthi and Ditali are pretty mainstream Orlanthi. Kero Fin is the home of Orlanth (although Arrowmound is their local sacred mountain (although the northern Solanthi also have an Orlanth cult centered on Ramor Mountain). Orlanth is less predominant among the Manirians, although in Nimistor, the Orlanth cult centered on Sylor Mountain is very important.

The speculation on the Harandings in Blood Over Gold and Tradetalk is wildly unofficial. The Haradlaro worship Orlanth and Heler, but their king, Longsi, allied with the Grandmothers against the Hendrikings during Aranda's War and received the city of Kosh in return. The locals have a deserved reputation for being troublemakers and bandits. Their current (c 1627) rulers are Queen Nevaleen of Kosh and Velentru the Wild Man. The Haradlaro don't resemble the writeups given in Blood Over Gold or Tradetalk - and heck, they are in Esrolia, not Maniria or Wenelia.

2. Malkioni from the Silver Empire likely came to Ramalia circa 145 in the entourage of Veakmal and his sorceress wife. In 758, the city states of Slontos allied with the Middle Sea Alliance to expel the Loper People, which reached its culmination with the utter defeat of the Loper People by Emperor Svagad. Svagad incorporated Slontos into the Middle Sea Empire.

3. Ramor mountain is a sacred peak of Orlanth and the center of a local cult influential among the Solanthi.

A pass through the Mislari mountains would enable direct communication between the Orlanthi kingdoms of East Ralios (settled in the First Age and still known in songs and stories) and Esrolia and Dragon Pass. In the Second Age, fliers used to connect East Ralios to the Kingdom of Dragon Pass and later EWF, but that magic is now lost.

 

 

 

[Nevermet]

First off, thanks for taking the time to give a very full response on canon.  And before I posted, I was aware the Guide trumped all sources when there was a contradiction.  The hierarchy of texts is very clear on that point.  But I had questions, and it sounds like my practice of using BoG & Tradetalk as sources to fill in the Guide's shape isn't an encouraged behavior (YGMV not withstanding).

 

Am I correct that if you were relatively silent on an issue, there is not currently canonical content ? For example, details on Entru, the religious & political details of Kaxtorplose & Handra, etc?

[Nevermet]

Also, to be clear about my motives: I like working inside boxes.  Tell me what my parameters are, and I'll actually be more creative than if someone said, "do whatever".  Glorantha is a setting nerd's dream come true, so I want to know all the setting parameters.

 

Now, IMG, I may bend or break some of the official canon details, but I want to know I'm doing so, because it will allow me to map out how the change effects other things more.

[metcalph]

10 hours ago, Nevermet said:

I: Orlanthi

My first set of questions is about the Orlanthi culture of Maniria.  Is there a culturally relevant umbrella term for the Ditali, Solanthi, Nimistori, and Maldros?  Manirian?  Wenelian?

In addition to the names that Jeff has mentioned, I've used Entruli.  

10 hours ago, Nevermet said:

 

Second, how different are they from Heortling / Sartarite Orlanthi in terms of religion? A straight question here is what is the current state of Entru?  Is he affiliated with animals in general now, or specifically pigs/boars?  Did he have priests or spirit talkers?

The best information about Entru is probably history of the Heortling Peoples p97.  Originally the people were of the wilds and friends to plants and animals.  They were nearly destroyed by the creatures of darkness (trolls?) but King Hooafting saved them by building sacred forts  (perhaps the -plose places?).  Their unity was destroyed when Beked was slain.  They also offended the gods who sank their sweet city Herilia (I think this is meant to be Erenplose).  Also I think the sinking of Erenplose should happen in the flood age and before the problems with the trolls.

They are culturally Orlanthi having been exposed to Orlanthi ways since the Storm Age (basically put after the seas flooded the place, the Vingkotlings came and drove the seas back.  So IMO there is a distinct strain of wild-living (hunter/gatherers) among the entruli which has been superseded by the Orlanthi cattle-farming ways.  Plus you have further influences from Esrolia, Safelster and the now sunken Slontos.

 

10 hours ago, Nevermet said:

As a piece of speculation, what is the possibility that Manirian heritage includes the Helerings, a tribe separate from the Vingkotlings?  It has the mountain where Heler surrendered to Orlanth, and its residents ticked off the water gods enough that a beautiful city got sunk and trapped, but not destroyed.

The Helerings were mostly destroyed by the great darkness except for a few surviving colonies along the manirian shore (Sartar Companion p263).  I think following the example of the Coming Storm, they would be strongest around the rivers and lakes of Maniria but mixed in with other Orlanthi.

10 hours ago, Nevermet said:

 

And finally, are there still Haranding clans tucked away various places, screaming "freedom!" at irregular intervals?

A clan or two undboutedly exists.  But the largest remant of Haranding Culture, the Haradlaro became part of Esrolia under king Longsi a long time ago.

 

10 hours ago, Nevermet said:

 

First, where did the Malkioni kingdoms in SW Maniria come from?  I ask because overland routes at that time were blocked by elven forests.  I also doubt that they came with Arkat who had already become an Orlanthi before liberating Maniria.  Were they colonists from Sheshnela or somewhere else?  Any info on why they came?

I think they were there since the Storm Age having been part of the same migration that settled God Forgot.  Their original home was New Malkonwall on the western shore of the Faralinthor Sea (cf Guide p688 and p691).  The first settlements were trading posts but they became more populous after Malkion was murdered and New Malkonwal sunk.

 

10 hours ago, Nevermet said:

 

Second, there are polities that are remnants of Slontos: Kaxtorplose, Ramalia, Handra partially, and I'm guessing Khorst.  

How similar do people think religion is in those places?  Are the Slontans of Handra worshipping the same way as the people in Kaxtorplose?  Is Ramalia just an "evil and proud of it" version of Slonton style Malkioni?

In the Middle Sea Empire p44 onwards, there is reference to the Book of Secrets (an Arkati version of the Abiding Book) which was opened in Slontos at the end of the Imperial Age (and which promptly sank the place).  So rather than following the Abiding Book, the Malkioni will be heavily influenced by the Book of Secrets and have different magics (finding out hich magic is right and proper and which magic is not would be a big obsession among their wizards). 

Ramalia is as evil as you want it to be.  I however make their fear of the sea to be real and that a large portion of their heavy taxation goes to supporting wizards who keep the land magically dry.  

 

10 hours ago, Nevermet said:

And that brings up my last question: Kaxtorplose survives thanks to pilgrims.  Who are these pilgrims and where are they from?

My best guess is that they are from Safelster intent on visiting an important place in Arkat's journey.  

10 hours ago, Nevermet said:

And Second:  other than trolls who want to eat elves, why would anyone want to find the one lost pass through the Mislari Mountains?

Perhaps they are interested in finding and looting the Convergences which exists in the pass.

 

10 hours ago, Nevermet said:

10 hours ago, Nevermet said:

 

My last set of questions are about the Loper People , aka the  Zaranistangi.  Was their magic rune or spirit based? What does a loper beast look like?  And third, are the blue moon worshipping fisherman leftovers from the Lopers?

The Loper People come from Teshnos and were raiding Maniria at the time.  Thus I doubt there would be native populations there (a secret tradition leftover from a defeated army?  fine). Their magic can be whatever you want it to be (My own theory is that they commanded magical tides that would allow them to wield the magic of whatever local gods and spirits lived in the region).  

[Jeff]

A few followup things on the "Harandings", Helerites, and Handra.

1. In the Dawn Age the Harandings were Orlanth-worshiping folk who rode upon tuskers and served the elves of the Arstola Forest. They may even have had some connection with the Aramites of the Ivory Plinth. Harand was a Storm Age king who quarreled with Jarani, allied with Argan Argar and his trolls, and died after breaking his oath to Orlanth (this is the Haranding version of the story) - much like Hrolf Kraki lost his luck in war after he offended Odin. 

In the Second Age, the Haradlaro raised pigs but no longer rode upon them. They were within the orbit of the EWF, but likely maintained traditional worship of Orlanth, Ernalda, Mralota, Ketha, and Ezkankekko/Argan Argar.

In the Third Age, the Haradlaro acknowledge the suzerainty of the Queendom of Esrolia (who is also queen of Nochet since around 1450 or so).

2. Lots of Manirians claims Heler as an ancestor. But keep in mind - a Third Age Manirian claiming Heler as an ancestor is a lot like an Ptolemaic Egyptian claiming Narmer as an ancestor.

3. Handra bears little resemblance to its Tradetalk writeup. Its founders were refugees from Ralios seeking to fulfill a prophecy and survivors from sunken Slontos. It was little more than a collection of fishing villages in the mouth of the Noshain until the Opening, when it rapidly transformed itself into a commercial frenemy of Nochet. I tend to think its cultural is largely purchased/copied from Esrolia, although sorcerers (especially sorcerers fleeing from Safelster or Nolos and Pithdarans) are much more common. The temple of Handra Liv, the city's patron goddess, sponsors many mercantile adventures.

 

[Jeff]

Entru is a husband/son of Ketha and mother of Entruli. He's worshiped by the Haradlaro of Longsi Land. He's a son of Orlanth.

[kr0p0s]

On ‎16‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 7:41 PM, Jeff said:

The Solanthi and Ditali are pretty mainstream Orlanthi.

What of the Nimistori? How do they differ from mainstream Orlanthi? Are they remnants of the more pure wild-living Entruli folk that survived the sinking of Slontos , clinging to the southern reaches of the Arstola Forest?