Even more Comparitive Systemology

[soltakss]

Moving this to yet another thread, since it isn't about a starting campaign and isn't about why MRQ is the work of the Devil and all his Minions and why BRP is the work of All the Saints in the Heavens ...

Okay, I'll bite.

I wasn't fishing, honest!

Jrustela, Clanking City and Dara Happa Stirs are all very detailed books that will sustain lots of prolonged play - if GMs are prepared to put in some work for themselves. Whilst people are wrapped in the cosy warmth of Nostalgia for Griffin Mountain, Pavis and Borderlands, I'd suggest people actually take a good look at these old classics (I've got 'em, BTW, and am very fond of them). I don't think any are half as detailed as people actually think them to be. For their time, they were, and they without doubt broke new ground, but if you scratch beneath the surface, the detail there is quite thin.

As someone who has written most of the scenarios I have GMed, I don't have a problem with writing scenarios. I was merely pointing out that someone who wants to take a campaign and run it with little advance work would be better using a setting that has had a lot written about it. In Glorantha, nothing even approaches Pavis/Prax for number of supplements or breadth of information. Issaries/Moon Design are going back to Pavis/Prax as the centrepiece of their new HeroQuest material, which shows how popular a setting it is.

And it does look very good indeed, from my first skip-read of it.

Again, I wasn't having a pop at Mongoose or anyone else.

Look at the areas of Glorantha covered by previous supplements (yes, I know this isn't relevant to Mongoose but bear with me):

Balazar/Elder Wilds: 1 (2 if you count Griffin Island, 3 if you count the reprint)

Sartar: 6

Troll Lands: (3 probably - it's hard to decide whether to count reprints)

Dorastor: 4

Pavis/Prax: 10+

Mongoose Supplements:

Trolls: 1

Elves: 1

Dragonewts: 1

Jrustela: 1

Clanking City: 1

Dragon Pass: 1

Dara Happa: 1

and so on.

I'm not saying this is bad, because clearly Mongoose are covering more areas in detail and this is a good thing.

However, it does mean that, so far, we haven't had a particular area covered with more than one supplement.

For example, I would love to see the seige of Clanking City covered, together with the Lightbringers Quest that brought back the force that could conquer the Machine God. Anything that requires a LBQ to defeat it surely deserves more than one supplement. I'd like to see how the Invincible Golden Horde arose and how it marched to the Dragonkill. Similarly, I want to see how Delecti changes to become an undead horror, how the Godlearners come to a sticky end, how the Vent is brought to explode and so on. I'd like to see all these things and many of them involve going back to an area and detailing areas/organisations/people/events. Some of them will need several visits. The Clanking City Seige would need a supplement to cover the factions and their motives, another for the LBQ, another for the climax, unless you combine the last two. All of these supplements would have a lot of background detail and scenarios.

It's that kind of depth that we are not seeing at the moment. I am hoping it's because Mongoose haven't had time to explore the different areas rather than them having no intention to explore these areas.

Sure, but I was answering a question about how to get involved in a setting in Glorantha fairly easily. Anyone can write their own scenarios and campaigns and most GMs do this. But, if a campaign has already been set out, then it reduces the workload.

And that's great.

I've bought all the Mongoose Gloranthan supplements and most of their non-Glorantha ones, so I don't have an axe to grind against Mongoose. I think they are doing a great job. But, at some point they are going to have to write more about areas they have already visited and that's what I want to see.

[sinisalo]

I just read the Kustria setting from Glorantha the Second Age a year or more after I bought it. I'm sorry I'm just into Orlanthi against whatever empire it is this decade and jumped passed it when I saw the word Ralios. It's actually very good as you would expect from Robin Laws.

But it needs effort on the part of the gm to flesh it out. We need proper maps including streets and close up maps showing floor plans. I want to know that there is a pile of wood in the corner, that there is a back entrance and that one of the guards goes to see his girlfriend when everyone else is asleep. We need playable material, ie everything that Griffin Island, Masks of Nyarlothetep and the Enemy Within was.

I used Griffin Island when we weren't in Balazar. I reused Gondo Holst's caravan, the Redeye temple - well I reused just about all of it. And yes I do write my own plots but when my players start free roaming I reach for GI.

I think Clanking City is guilty of this "just a setting" philosophy, and though interesting, is completely useless to me.

I doubt there are very many people on this forum who won't agree with me on the quality of GI, Masks and the Enemy Within. They each have the same formula (shared also by Grand Theft Auto another majestic game). That formula needs to be followed by Mongoose also.

IMHO

[sinisalo]

....so I don't have an axe to grind against Mongoose. I think they are doing a great job.

Some writers on the MRQ line are very good others are very poor. Some of it is beautiful, some of it is a dog's breakfast. I've never seen anything like this. As long as they keep putting out good stuff I won't get too upset at the utter mess they made of the core rules (and yes I do like some of the changes like dropping the resistnace table - you BRP types are living in the past)

[lawrence.whitaker]

It's that kind of depth that we are not seeing at the moment. I am hoping it's because Mongoose haven't had time to explore the different areas rather than them having no intention to explore these areas.

Thanks for such a detailed and considered reply, Simon. I appreciate the points you make.

I think the quote above kind of summarises things. There's no deliberate urge to cover the whole of Glorantha and then move on, but there is a design to cover as much as possible in appropriate depth before returning to already detailed areas to add to the canon. S&P is a good place for adding material to any of the settings so far published - I know of one scenario for Dara Happa for instance, and I think the Fronela book will generate quite a bit more (because its such a huge region to cover).

Pavis is a very interesting example because, as you say, its at the very heart of Glorantha for many people (perhaps us old skoolers). For HQ we took the decision to revisit Pavis as the first Gloranthan setting for the new rules because it has such a strong place, and because we knew we could extract a lot more unexplored detail that's hinted at in the classic boxed set/book. I'm working through all thaty material now, and having a fun time working on things hinted at or mentioned in passing that you know can be worked up into something fun and informative. There is also a plan to detail Second Age Pavis for MRQ - which is a very different place to Third Age, and I'm looking foward to that project (though it won't be for a while yet).

[RMS]

There is also a plan to detail Second Age Pavis for MRQ - which is a very different place to Third Age, and I'm looking foward to that project (though it won't be for a while yet).

There was a fanzine-type publication on an earlier Pavis. I have it, but can't remember when it was set, and it's packed away at the moment. Are you familiar with it? It'd be an interesting place to play in, but would be completely different from the 3rd Age place we all grew up with.

[jean]

There was a fanzine-type publication on an earlier Pavis. I have it, but can't remember when it was set, and it's packed away at the moment. Are you familiar with it? It'd be an interesting place to play in, but would be completely different from the 3rd Age place we all grew up with.

The Tentacle society published two lines of books about Pavis.

There was a series of Ye Book of Tentacles about Pavis in the 3rd age, and there is a Guide to Pavis that is set in the 2nd age.

I must check, but I think that the 2nd age supplement is directly compatible with the now (around 908 ST) of the MRQ supplements

Jean

[frogspawner]

There is also a plan to detail Second Age Pavis for MRQ - which is a very different place to Third Age, and I'm looking foward to that project (though it won't be for a while yet).

There was a fanzine-type publication on an earlier Pavis.

The Tentacle society published two lines of books about Pavis.

There was a series of Ye Book of Tentacles about Pavis in the 3rd age, and there is a Guide to Pavis that is set in the 2nd age.

I must check, but I think that the 2nd age supplement is directly compatible with the now (around 908 ST) of the MRQ supplements

It'd be nice if new material for Pavis (or anywhere in Glorantha) built upon already published versions rather than driving a bulldozer through it...

[TRose]

As far as writing your own material goes , Most Gm I know just use the written material as a guide.

I started my campaign out of Knightsfort( 3rd age ) on the border of Prax because I had a pretty free hand in the are as not much has been publish on the area , but there was still enough information that I did not have to start from scratch.

It was also I might add one of the few places I could think of where Sorcerers, theist and spirit worshippers could be found together and not start off by killing each other if in the same party.

Might add my campaign takes place just after the battle of Moonbroth and the players are working for the All Seeing Eye( My version of the Pharaoh's secret service) who want to make sure the Lunar forces in Prax are kept busy and have an interesting life in Prax.

[TRose]

Some writers on the MRQ line are very good others are very poor. Some of it is beautiful, some of it is a dog's breakfast. I've never seen anything like this. As long as they keep putting out good stuff I won't get too upset at the utter mess they made of the core rules (and yes I do like some of the changes like dropping the resistnace table - you BRP types are living in the past)

Right about that . I buy a good amount of Momgoose stuff even if I often have to re work some of it to fit my needs.

[soltakss]

The Tentacle society published two lines of books about Pavis.

There was a series of Ye Book of Tentacles about Pavis in the 3rd age, and there is a Guide to Pavis that is set in the 2nd age.

I must check, but I think that the 2nd age supplement is directly compatible with the now (around 908 ST) of the MRQ supplements

They were quite good. The Second Age Pavis book was interesting.

Of course, people in the "In-Crowd" are saying that they are completely unofficial and inaccurate, however they will be pushing a new HeroQuest line based in Pavis and will try to rubbish any competing works.

I think they had their flaws, but came out at a time when RuneQuest wasn't really being pushed and even Hero Wars didn't have much coming out, so Ian Thomson should be applauded for his heroic efforts in detailing Pavis and the surrounding area.

Second Age Pavis would be a very good setting where the EWF and Jrusteli can operate side by side.

[lawrence.whitaker]

It'd be nice if new material for Pavis (or anywhere in Glorantha) built upon already published versions rather than driving a bulldozer through it...

The intention is very much to build upon the original. There won't be a bulldozer in sight.

[Al.]

The intention is very much to build upon the original. There won't be a bulldozer in sight.

What is this some kind of circular time theory (damn you compromise) Pavis gets bulldozed to make it a thriving city again?

Al

[Sven Norén]

"Bulldozer: A sleepy Storm bull initiate."

-- the Dictionary of Eye-watering Words

[GerallKahla]

"Bulldozer: A sleepy Storm bull initiate."

-- the Dictionary of Eye-watering Words

I'm still laughing, and I have to go into work now...

Priceless! Thanks for this, Sven!