Religon, Material and Group Culture

[Ali the Helering]

Joerg noted on the 'Money in Orlanthi Society' thread, in response to diversions off  "Speaking of everyday magic, and trying to return to the topic of money -"

Taking his point entirely, and not wishing to further derail that topic, I wondered if it could be interesting to continue the discussion indicated by the new title here.  I am always keen to move beyond the generic and to introduce local differences within a culture, because no culture is monolithic.  I don't think that this is simply on a waste-not want-not basis, but is an implicit part of a groups' being and self-expression.

So, to start the ball rolling, for those clans that are strong in Barntari magic, particularly within the Cinsina and Culbrea tribes as per S:KoH

Quoting from the Subcult of Orlanth "His worshippers use the Air or Movement Rune affinities to aid in ploughing fields"

Storm Tribe lists his feats as relating to the preparation of fields for ploughing, mastering domesticated animals, and physical strength.  Therefore, I would assume the following:

1 They are able to farm more land than their neighbours, being able to turn difficult land to the plough more readily.  This is especially so if the cult secret 'Plow Any Field' is used. 

2 Particularly due to 'Tame Bull', their cattle herd will be more diverse, including more recently wild blood-lines

[Joerg]

21 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

I am always keen to move beyond the generic and to introduce local differences within a culture, because no culture is monolithic.  I don't think that this is simply on a waste-not want-not basis, but is an implicit part of a groups' being and self-expression.

I agree - just look at the "making a tribe" negotiations in the King of Dragon Pass computer game, and how the clans that you approach are presented.

21 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

So, to start the ball rolling, for those clans that are strong in Barntari magic, particularly within the Cinsina and Culbrea tribes as per S:KoH

Quoting from the Subcult of Orlanth "His worshippers use the Air or Movement Rune affinities to aid in ploughing fields"

Storm Tribe lists his feats as relating to the preparation of fields for ploughing, mastering domesticated animals, and physical strength.  Therefore, I would assume the following:

1 They are able to farm more land than their neighbours, being able to turn difficult land to the plough more readily.  This is especially so if the cult secret 'Plow Any Field' is used. 

2 Particularly due to 'Tame Bull', their cattle herd will be more diverse, including more recently wild blood-lines

There are other ways to cattle breeding and bull taming, within the standard cult of Orlanth. The trick with the lariat and the stick was originally Orlanth's, asserting domination over his brother, the Storm Bull. And that bull knowledge came in extremely handy during a certain ceremony in that playtest game with Ian Cooper.

Barntar cultists are able to plow more land than ordinary farmers - which can mean that they produce a huge surplus in barley, or, if the arable land is limited, that they free up a lot of people to pursue other forms of primary production.

Plow any field is especially valuable when cultivating new fields - the Barntar magic will deal with remaining tree roots, small buried boulders and sub-soil ridges of bedrock in places with little soil coverage. Another use would be to cultivate near vertical hill-sides for vinyards or orchards. On ordinary, well-kept and level fields the secret is not that helpful.

Herd diversity comes either from trading the offspring of price bulls (something most cattle breeders are somewhat reluctant to do), or from raiding. When it comes to Barntar herds, I would rather expect expert breeding selection for desirable traits - better meat, stronger oxen... (Better milk would be in the domain of Uralda rather than Barntar, IMO.)

[Tindalos]

There's also the possibility of unintended knock on effects. Things not directly connected to the cults, but caused because of their presence.

For example, Ingenew Redson, a subcult of Humakt. Sartar KoH notes that initiates to him learn metallurgy and weapon smithing; among clans that have a shrine to him, the Humakti will likely be responsible for weapon smithing as a religious duty.

This would free the Gustbran smiths to concentrate on other tasks, forging more every day items. Such clans could have a surfeit of bronze goods, increasing their wealth, and making them popular with traders.

[David Scott]

I think you are spot on with the diversity of culture. But in order to reflect that I'd say that every clan has its own thing it can do well, a niche.

2 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

1 They are able to farm more land than their neighbours, being able to turn difficult land to the plough more readily.  This is especially so if the cult secret 'Plow Any Field' is used.

This where the whole thing gets into difficulties and abstractions such as the community values of Heroquest become more useful. Lets just say they are able to plough more land, that will in theory give more grain, in theory more food/fodder, a larger clan, then what. If it's being able to turn difficult land to the plough more readily, that means they can live in a more difficult area and produce the same amount of grain. All these clans are butted up against each other in Sartar. Any one overwhelming niche ability can give a clan the edge in power of the area. I think overall these all balance out I'm not saying these specialisms don't exist, as I believe they do. I just think they are offset by the specialisms of the other clans. Imbalances do occur and this is where problems arise. e.g. More people can mean more warriors, which can mean more raiding, etc.

On any path - doesn't the clan generator produce these variations anyway, that's my experience.

[Ali the Helering]

Thanks Joerg - variation is the key!

If one were to look at Argan Argar and the Torkani, working from the Sartar Companion primarily.

The Darkness Rune Affinity obviously assists in trade with the Kitori, the Shadow Plateau, Dagori Inkarth and Cliffhome.  Therefore I would anticipate an increased amount of chitin, lead and obsidian based goods, even if not enormously so.  The ability to walk unheard and unseen in darkness and shadows would increase the chances of successful night raids, particularly since the Elmal write-up states that only they have night patrols. (The Star Watch S:KoH p153)  Given the ability to summon and command beings of Darkness, there is even a reasonable chance of Darkbeasts on occasion.

The Communication Rune Affinity indicates a general increase in traded wealth, although in no way rivalling that of an Issaries-strong community.

 

Staying with Issaries and Boldhome, Jonstown and Wilmskirk.

The Communication Rune Affinity has a very broad range of effects. Firstly the economic - blessing a market, blessing a transaction, getting a fair price, and assessing value.  Secondly the spiritual - the ability to speak with the dead and with deities.  Thirdly the social - neutral ground, poetry and prose and friendship.  These would indicate a high rating in Magic, Morale and Wealth, with areas/shrines specialised in these different functions.

The Movement Rune Affinity and the wanderlust it produces/requires could make for further-reaching trade and peace-making expeditions.  

[Ali the Helering]

8 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I think you are spot on with the diversity of culture. But in order to reflect that I'd say that every clan has its own thing it can do well, a niche.

This where the whole thing gets into difficulties and abstractions such as the community values of Heroquest become more useful. Lets just say they are able to plough more land, that will in theory give more grain, in theory more food/fodder, a larger clan, then what. If it's being able to turn difficult land to the plough more readily, that means they can live in a more difficult area and produce the same amount of grain. All these clans are butted up against each other in Sartar. Any one overwhelming niche ability can give a clan the edge in power of the area. I think overall these all balance out I'm not saying these specialisms don't exist, as I believe they do. I just think they are offset by the specialisms of the other clans. Imbalances do occur and this is where problems arise. e.g. More people can mean more warriors, which can mean more raiding, etc.

On any path - doesn't the clan generator produce these variations anyway, that's my experience.

Yup, absolutely, but looking at it this way enables you to explain and illustrate the differences more fully.  If wealth is indicated in one particular way, it means wealth creation in others can be downplayed.  For example - the Barntar-strong cult whose questionnaire indicates intensive farming but has only a moderate wealth outcome for other reasons could be portrayed as lacking in pasture or crafters.

[Jon Hunter]

The point I would make is that possible advantages due to magic are just that possible advantages.

Just because there is the magical potential it doesn't mean its used or that war, famine, bad leadership, political jiggery pokkery and general incompetence don't undermine or eliminate the magic advantages which exist.

Also greater magical power can lead to greater possibility of magic fubar, or societal disaster if magic fails.  This creates very interesting plot ideas and bring Glorantha magical society back to the game we love to play.

[David Scott]

10 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

but looking at it this way enables you to explain and illustrate the differences more fully

I'm not disagreeing. However there is no baseline for doing this. GMs and players are encouraged to do the questionnaire themselves. Every clan will be different for every gamer. There are some overall concepts that will be clear, like who borders who, some info in the guide about places and clans but nothing overall. Unless of course you want to do a relationship flowchart for all of Sartar. That might be possible on a tribal level, but only for specific time periods.

[Ali the Helering]

33 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I'm not disagreeing. However there is no baseline for doing this. GMs and players are encouraged to do the questionnaire themselves. Every clan will be different for every gamer. There are some overall concepts that will be clear, like who borders who, some info in the guide about places and clans but nothing overall. Unless of course you want to do a relationship flowchart for all of Sartar. That might be possible on a tribal level, but only for specific time periods.

Thank you David, that wasn't meant to come over as assertion of a disagreement, simply as a purpose.  As I have said elsewhere, I fully acknowledge myself to be a pedantic simulationist!  My files of clans occupy about a third of a bookcase as a result.  My wife is very tolerant.

 

36 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

The point I would make is that possible advantages due to magic are just that possible advantages.

Just because there is the magical potential it doesn't mean its used or that war, famine, bad leadership, political jiggery pokkery and general incompetence don't undermine or eliminate the magic advantages which exist.

Also greater magical power can lead to greater possibility of magic fubar, or societal disaster if magic fails.  This creates very interesting plot ideas and bring Glorantha magical society back to the game we love to play.

Indeed Jon, playing around with, and trying to give local justification to the stats is great fun, and sometimes highly productive.

A short foray into Humakt.

Death Rune Affinity - 'Cutting through elements' could aid with irrigation, quarrying and mining, and 'destroying weapons and armour' cut down on the need for fresh bronze.

Truth Rune Affinity - 'Swear Oath' could indicate a legal practise existing at the shrine, while 'sense disloyalty and identify traitor' could produce a highly unified, if somewhat smaller clan than usual.

Mercenary income could lead one to expect a higher War and Wealth rating.  Swords would be far more common than in most clans, especially if there is an Ingenew forge - remembering Tindalos' post above.  Since the first requirement for an Ingenew smith is metallurgy, one might look for a greater frequency of metal goods in general.

The Hiia subcult indicates (Storm Tribe) an ability at general land clearance (Cut Stone, Cut Wood) since his background doesn't indicate any animosity towards Mostali or Aldryami. 

[David Scott]

Perhaps a simple model of the tribes of Sartar a year at a time would be a good start.

[Ali the Helering]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Perhaps a simple model of the tribes of Sartar a year at a time would be a good start.

My point is that the religions that are significant will have a potential impact on each and every tribe, but the particular local combos will have an overarching effect.  A simple model for a tribe will in no way be a good indicator for the reality of each clan within it.  That is where the outcome of the questionnaire interfaces interestingly with the suggested indicators. 

[TRose]

 One problem I can see with the Plough any field magic of Barntar is how does the local nature spirit feel about  having her forest cut down? Glorantha is a land full of magical spirits and just because there are no Aldrayami around does not mean there is no  spirit in the local forest that's going to make your life miserable if you start cutting down her trees. You don't placate the Spirit and Insect swarm your field, your Ox  trips and breaks it leg, a Tree falls the wrong way crushing the cutter  and other nasty bad luck happens.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, TRose said:

 One problem I can see with the Plough any field magic of Barntar is how does the local nature spirit feel about  having her forest cut down? Glorantha is a land full of magical spirits and just because there are no Aldrayami around does not mean there is no  spirit in the local forest that's going to make your life miserable if you start cutting down her trees. You don't placate the Spirit and Insect swarm your field, your Ox  trips and breaks it leg, a Tree falls the wrong way crushing the cutter  and other nasty bad luck happens.

That's where the marriage to the land comes in. This rite is important because it gives the humans the connection to the fertility of the land, to nurture and alter it.

So yes, the quester for this fertility needs to overcome the resistance of the forces of the wild. He may have to chase the uncatchable deer, or he may have to fight his way through long stretches of thorny vines slashing back at him while arrows are fired at him from seemingly nowhere, or there might be giants that need to be cut down before proceding to the intended wife.

And the husband will have to make sure that the marriage remains a happy one. Repeats of the wooing are absolutely required.