whip as melee weapon

[Jusmak]

Hi!

Whip is actually ranged weapon, effective range of 3-5 meters. But how it should be treated when used in melee? Can a character keep the distance as mentioned in long reach weapons, just by calculating strike ranks? Mythras may have a bit clearer approuch with this, as using open/closing distance. Whip becomes quite useless at close distance, but it is a bit obscure, when melee combat starts in situation  like this? At whip's strike rank it strikes first as a ranged attack, but then actual melee combat starts when both opponents are at fighting distance? And how about, if whip user just keeps running all the time, never letting distance diminish under 3 meters?

 

[soltakss]

A whip can still be used to strangle, at close range, or to entangle, or to trip.

Someone with a whip might be able to maintain distance, by whirling it around, thuis giving opponents no opportunity to close.

[Raleel]

In Mythras, it has a very long reach, which beats everything except for big polearms like pikes. In Mythras, if either is within melee striking distance, you use melee rules.

the whip can't be used to parry (offensive trait), but it has the ability to entangle, stun location, go around shields (flexible trait), and it can pin weapons without a critical (entrapping, but oddly it can't use the Defensive part of Entrapping, since that requires a parry). Entangling can make a limb useless and the whip user can make trip attempts against the entangled. I imagine entangling a neck might count as a choke actually. 

Keeping them at reach, I would say would require extra training (a style trait in Mythras) and might be an opposed roll of the weapon skill vs the willpower of the target. Willpower failure means he's afraid to close the gap.

also, note, inside of Medium reach, the whip user also has strong disadvantage for attacking, as his weapon can be blocked by an empty hand. Technically, it won't do less damage, but in my game, I think I'd make the whip user roll twice and take the lesser, or subtract 1. You might take that into account when figuring out difference in Runequest rules  

I might allow a whip user to take an action and turn his whip into a garrote by grabbing both ends. 

[Jusmak]

Thanks for insight. I played recently some PS4 game with a character having something like metal whip as a weapon technically more like a chain. It was quite fun to do all the dodging, rolling and trying to keep distance. It is quite easy to find damageboosting spells, so that weapon's versatility is intresting. 

[styopa]

Aside from the fact that whips really were never used as an actual weapon, of course.

Sure, they're used in crowd control, as an intimidation tool, and maybe occasionally (mainly due to nothing else being available) as a tangler attack on limbs - but actual weapon?  Really, never.

Take a guy with a knife and a guy with a bullwhip 50' apart, and I'd lay 100:1 that the knife guy destroys the whip guy, almost regardless of expertise.  Sure, the knife guy might get some nasty whip-cracks and 'burns' but that's hardly even lethal damage unless on the odd chance he happens to catch an eye.

[Yelm's Light]

And then, of course, there's the Indiana Jones solution.

Just make sure your holster is filled...

[Jusmak]

15 hours ago, styopa said:

Aside from the fact that whips really were never used as an actual weapon, of course.

Sure, they're used in crowd control, as an intimidation tool, and maybe occasionally (mainly due to nothing else being available) as a tangler attack on limbs - but actual weapon?  Really, never.

Take a guy with a knife and a guy with a bullwhip 50' apart, and I'd lay 100:1 that the knife guy destroys the whip guy, almost regardless of expertise.  Sure, the knife guy might get some nasty whip-cracks and 'burns' but that's hardly even lethal damage unless on the odd chance he happens to catch an eye.

Yes, I am aware of that. So called base damage is too low, but that's where magic comes for. Otherwise there simply is not enough stopping power and threat. Any weapon, which cannot deliver serious or lethal blow can be ignored those seconds, which are necessary to deliver own killing blow. Boost damage and dual wielding other weapon, which can also parry, bash/knockback helping to maintain long reach. This maybe will not work, but must see if Balrog just made himself ridiculous by wielding whip in that narrow bridge.

 

[g33k]

That "3-5 meters" of range hide the fact that there's also a minimum range (inside of which the whip in ineffective).  In a complex & often crowded melee with scores or hundreds per side (or in a narrow corridor, or amongst foliage, etc etc etc ...), the whip-user would have no room to use the whip and be (for all intents & purposes) unarmed.  DUELING (or other 1:1 combat) on a clear field is wholly-different from "combat" in the conventional armed-forces (i.e. armies) sense.

I myself have seen an SCA sword fighter facing a whip-guy (each with shield).  The whip-guy seemed to have a marginal advantage; but my sense was that it was primarily because the SCA guy was unfamilar with what he was facing (I note the similar effect when the Gracies brought their BJJ to the USAian MMA ring, and dominated for several years (until the USAian guys had learned enough to counter the BJJ moves)).

Some good info here: http://bullwhip.org/?page_id=35

Note (per the link above) that someone who stands off and gets a sense of the timing of the whip can likely close to INSIDE the whip's effective range; maybe suffering 1 hit as they close (or maybe not); and that a "heavy coat, and a fencing mask" are sufficient armor to face a full-force whipcrack.

As a GM, I would allow a whip (particularly a magically-enhanced whip) to be a fearsome weapon... under the specific circumstances of:

• there being plenty of space to swing the whip
• only a single foe
• the foe being unfamiliar with facing a whip

For each of these that isn't true in a given combat, I would consider the whip less effective or even wholly-ineffective.

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by g33k

[Raleel]

I think I would allow it to work well against multiple opponents if it was magically enhanced. After all, at that point it is inflicting real damage and not as much of a psychological threat. Consider the Urumi sword - you definitely don't want to step into the arc of one flying around. http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/indias-deadly-flexible-whip-sword-takes-years-to-master for reference. The videos are quite interesting, and the notion of it providing a "defensive field" probably comes closest to the whip's use (not just a single crack)

however, I can see if you are wearing heavy enough armor, you might just walk in. Something like this probably does a bit more damage than a whip - let's say 1d6, and I'm going to guess without a strength bonus being possible. If you are wearing armor that protects 6 or more points, you will not be concerned with defending yourself and just walk inside the reach of the weapon.

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Raleel said:

I think I would allow it to work well against multiple opponents if it was magically enhanced.

The thing is that the "continuous flow" effect requires -- as best I can tell, not being a whip expert -- for there to be a space behind the wielder to regain momentum & rhythm.  If foes are coming at you from two sides simultaneously, putting up a shield-block on each side of you as they step in... your whip is gonna have problems.

Of course, 2:1 and worse odds is always a problem in realistic combat; but the whip-and-shield user is even worse off here than a conventionally-armed fighter (if I undestand whip use correctly).

I guess that the "magically enhanced" caveat could gloss over these mechanical problems (or any others, for that matter) .  But when you don't have the magical buff, the whip becomes much less effective.

[Raleel]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

The thing is that the "continuous flow" effect requires -- as best I can tell, not being a whip expert -- for there to be a space behind the wielder to regain momentum & rhythm.  If foes are coming at you from two sides simultaneously, putting up a shield-block on each side of you as they step in... your whip is gonna have problems.

Of course, 2:1 and worse odds is always a problem in realistic combat; but the whip-and-shield user is even worse off here than a conventionally-armed fighter (if I undestand whip use correctly).

I guess that the "magically enhanced" caveat could gloss over these mechanical problems (or any others, for that matter) .  But when you don't have the magical buff, the whip becomes much less effective.

check out 

 on that. I think the idea here is that it doesn't stop when it hits, but rather cuts and slides away. Granted, this demonstration is clearly staged and organized sparring, and thus somewhat idealized. However, there is a little bit of regaining rhythm in there. I suspect the space issue would be dealt with by Reach, with a person getting inside making the whip not able to swing around effectively (see Mythras' closing range rules). These two are fighting at the same reach, and it would be a different situation with a dagger and shield user - can he get in fast enough before the urumi comes around and slashes up his back?

And yea, 2:1 odds are always bad for the 1. I don't think a whip user is a lot worse off than, say, a spear user who has someone get in on them and bind up their weapon, or a halberd or pike user who has someone get in and make it hard to use against their buddy.

No argument on the whip not being an effective damage dealer - you could easily ignore the damage with a little armor. Whip user tries to keep someone at reach, other person just moves in and ignores the shot. Mythras' overextend opponent might make a useful "fear effect" to steal for this situation, with the caveat about armor.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Raleel said:

... I think the idea here is that it doesn't stop when it hits, but rather cuts and slides away. Granted, this demonstration is clearly staged and organized sparring, and thus somewhat idealized. However, there is a little bit of regaining rhythm in there. I suspect the space issue would be dealt with by Reach, with a person getting inside making the whip not able to swing around effectively (see Mythras' closing range rules). These two are fighting at the same reach, and it would be a different situation with a dagger and shield user - can he get in fast enough before the urumi comes around and slashes up his back?

 

Agree that the slashing "cut and slide away" motion is key; and if it's deflected by shield or armor, "slide away" without cutting.  The edged blade is obfously even more dangrous than a leather whip!

Without damage-bonus or armor-penetrance (presumably from magic) I cannot see whips facing normally armed-and-armored foes; and I'm still inclined to give the advantage to the conventional weapons, which get the better base damage onto which the magic bonus gets applied...

Here are some martial-art kata's with whips:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Imrt_R3Tc5U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrV0v4NiCdg

However, these (like the several urumi vids I found) are relatively short whips... 1-2m, it looks to me.  All the serious/believable "combat" vids I have found seem to be for these short whips; with up to 3m/10ft still "looking" imprerssive but I think impractical.  I do not believe the same sort of motions and techniques apply to longer weapons.

Here is Adam Winrich, an expert whip-cracker (in the sport/performance realm):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHlFYHticq4

Here's a longer whip (about 4m) in action:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvY6x6pZatA

And a 5m whip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccVmimllveo

These whips do not seem practical in a "combat" context.  They demand too much space.  The "wind-up" and the degree to which they"telegraph" their motion does not look to me like a combat-effective weapon.  I note that after these long whips "do" something (strike, or just crack) it takes a couple of moments for the user to communicate their control back out the length of the whip and ready it to "do something" else.

Seeing all the vids above, I've got to grant that the short whips seem managable in small spaces, after all...

But I'm not seeing the OP's 3-5m of range in a combat-functional whip...

[Raleel]

great videos! I'm not sure I agree with 100% of what you said, but I certainly agree with the intent - whips are not super-useful in regular combat. There are some tricks, though, that indicate that it might be a lot better than we are giving it - Adam Winrich here is cutting soda cans all the way in two, though that is under pressure.

I think the reach and the fear factor are the big tricks here. if you eliminate the fear, you can easily get inside the reach and then it's not really a useful whip. This strikes me as similar to a pike or other polearm, only that you have a harder time not getting damaged on the approach

[Jusmak]

Fascinating! I thought, that whip was never used battle or martial arts. Well, chain weapons area bit close to that. Poisonous short whip has a fear factor, as uremi, too. There can be seen that x-movement, which seems to be common and keeping whip in continuos movement. Long whip (urumi) seems to be really hazardous, if there is more blades. There is no way to control them fully. With long whip it seems really essential to keep opponent out of reach. Looks like it becomes instantly useless, if somebody can step inside. Short whip could be used more easily as blackjack or something like that at close range.

But if I'm going to use short whip, I'll rather use chain. More sturdy and still flexible. Long whip seems more like onetimer, one shot to legs entangle and trying to make opponent fall, and immediately bring real steel front... Why to bother and not bringing real steel first place... Well too curious. 

 

Edited September 19, 2017 by Jusmak