Trifletraxor Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Our group eventually just dropped percentile and used a d20 for rolls with RQ3. All skills and modifiers were rounded to 5 or 0 and then we used a d20. That's the Pendragon method, isn't it? Calculating 20% and 5% does bog down play a little. Not that much, but I would have liked to see a 10% special instead. It seems it will stay at 20% for the new system though. Cheers, Sverrre. Quote Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub! 116/420. High Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMS Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 I like the Special at 20%. At 10% it happens too infrequently. I've never had these calculations bog down play at all. However, most of my RQ groups have been made up off math savy groups, so I understand that experience may be different from most. I would prefer moving criticals to 10% and keeping specials at double that (20%) to decreasing specials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Twig Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 I personally like the 20% Specials and 5% Criticals. Of course 20 odd years of RQ3 might have influenced my opinion. Quote The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) 30/420 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Twig Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 I guess quick division in your head is hard for some people. Thinking back I guess there would frequently be a case where someone needed to know what the Special or Critical chance of a certain percent was. In these cases, almost always, they would just look at me and I would tell them. Guess I have a talent for it. So really not everyone needs to be good at math, you just need one. Quote The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970) 30/420 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawrence.whitaker Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Personally I've never liked the Specials. It adds in another layer of complication, and, even though the Mongoose system for cross-reffing levels of success has come in for some flack, cross reffing fumble/fail/success/special/crit is every bit as time consuming and cumbersome. The table in the DBRP preview I have is... pretty bloody awful, I have to say. I prefer straight critical/success/fail/fumble. I can get my head around it much, much better. Quote The Design Mechanism: Publishers of Mythras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 I personally like the 20% Specials and 5% Criticals. This is the default for the new BRP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 I prefer straight critical/success/fail/fumble. I can get my head around it much, much better. Even though the early playtesting showed that people wanted to keep the criticals, I was leaning towards just going "special/success/failure/fumble" to eliminate any of the confusion that came from whether a crit is actually better than a special, etc. I liked the balance of "one normal and one better" on each side. So they stayed in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawrence.whitaker Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Even though the early playtesting showed that people wanted to keep the criticals, I was leaning towards just going "special/success/failure/fumble" to eliminate any of the confusion that came from whether a crit is actually better than a special, etc. I liked the balance of "one normal and one better" on each side. So they stayed in. Hi Jason, Are saying that criticals are in or out? If they're out, have you amended all the skill entries that give critical effects, and removed that level of success from the combat matrix? Sorry - but I'm not clear on what you mean in the above. Loz Quote The Design Mechanism: Publishers of Mythras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMS Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Personally I've never liked the Specials. It adds in another layer of complication, and, even though the Mongoose system for cross-reffing levels of success has come in for some flack, cross reffing fumble/fail/success/special/crit is every bit as time consuming and cumbersome. The table in the DBRP preview I have is... pretty bloody awful, I have to say. I prefer straight critical/success/fail/fumble. I can get my head around it much, much better. I love the specials. They happen enough that it really does give one additional level of resolution so there are 25 possible outcomes anytime you roll opposed skills, and it happens enough to decide most opposed rolls with a single roll. I don't mind critical/success/fail/fumble, but criticals and fumbles are rare enough that many rolls come down to ties...which leads to inelegant messy mechanics for breaking those ties. I'm not a fan of blackjack mechanics, and even though I'm a math person I don't really like finding the difference between the target % and the rolled %. I haven't seen the preview, but I don't know why you'd need a table for this. RQ never had one, and I'm pretty sure it's the only BRP with the special. It's pretty simple: Critical>Special>Success>Failure>Fumble. Whoever has the best success level wins. Use some common sense for how Failure>Fumble plays out verses Critcal>Special and you're good to go. Quick and simple...at least IMO. I wonder if those of us who like the special are the ones brought up on RQ and those who don't see the need came in with other forms of BRP. Familiarity, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMS Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 I guess quick division in your head is hard for some people. Then do multiplication and not division! Thinking back I guess there would frequently be a case where someone needed to know what the Special or Critical chance of a certain percent was. In these cases, almost always, they would just look at me and I would tell them. Guess I have a talent for it. The few nonmath savy sorts I've had in games, I have told them to find 10% of their target %. Then divide that by two and multiply it by two to get their critical and special chances. Once they think that way, it comes easily and quickly for them. Finding 5% and 20% of a number is simpler than many day-to-day calculations we have to do just to survive in the modern world. Go out to eat and you have to quickly calculate 15% or 20% for a tip. Go to a store and you have to track 6.125% (here) to know how much you're paying when you walk out the door for taxes, excepting food and clothing. So asking someone to quickly get 5% and 20% seems pretty trivial. So really not everyone needs to be good at math, you just need one. True. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawrence.whitaker Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 I haven't seen the preview, but I don't know why you'd need a table for this. RQ never had one, and I'm pretty sure it's the only BRP with the special. It's pretty simple: Critical>Special>Success>Failure>Fumble. Whoever has the best success level wins. Use some common sense for how Failure>Fumble plays out verses Critcal>Special and you're good to go. Quick and simple...at least IMO. The combat table has different effects depending on the success levels of the participants. For eg, Crit vs Fail = full damage, plus rolled damage, plus ignore armour, or parrying weapon/shield takes 4 pts of damage. There are 17 cross referenced entries and, whilst most are common sense, there are some entries where there's a lot to take in. I simply won't be able to remember the various outcomes off the top of my head! When I ran a BRP playtest combat, during the playtest session, I found that combat was slowed considerably whilst I figured the results through using the matrix. Of course, I'm old now, and the mind isn't what it used to be. Wibble. Quote The Design Mechanism: Publishers of Mythras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trifletraxor Posted October 18, 2007 Author Share Posted October 18, 2007 The combat table has different effects depending on the success levels of the participants. For eg, Crit vs Fail = full damage, plus rolled damage, plus ignore armour, or parrying weapon/shield takes 4 pts of damage. There are 17 cross referenced entries and, whilst most are common sense, there are some entries where there's a lot to take in. I simply won't be able to remember the various outcomes off the top of my head! When I ran a BRP playtest combat, during the playtest session, I found that combat was slowed considerably whilst I figured the results through using the matrix. Of course, I'm old now, and the mind isn't what it used to be. Wibble. Hmm. RQ combat took pretty long time before, I do hope it's not getting any slower... Sverre. Quote Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub! 116/420. High Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badcat Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 It's not that bad, Sverre. Have you not played Elric!/Stormbringer 5? That said, I prefer the 10% critical only myself. It makes life so much simpler, even though you sacrifice a certain amount of the combat 'flavor'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trifletraxor Posted October 18, 2007 Author Share Posted October 18, 2007 It's not that bad, Sverre. Have you not played Elric!/Stormbringer 5? That said, I prefer the 10% critical only myself. It makes life so much simpler, even though you sacrifice a certain amount of the combat 'flavor'. Haven't played that one before no. I've been one of those traditional RuneQuest in Glorantha nuts. (with a tiny dish of Cthulhu now and then) When I worked on houseruling MRQ, I operated with 10% critical hits and 1% perfect hits. Very easy to calculate, and the combat flavour remained. I also made fumbles easier to know by heart. I have no problems calculating criticals and specials, but with some do, and it bogs down the game a bit. Not much, but I find it kindoff unnecessary. I prefer not having to calculate at all. Sverre. Quote Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub! 116/420. High Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Hi Jason, Are saying that criticals are in or out? If they're out, have you amended all the skill entries that give critical effects, and removed that level of success from the combat matrix? Sorry - but I'm not clear on what you mean in the above. Loz Criticals are still in the core rulebook at the behest of my co-designer and the early playtest. My preference would have been to remove them and make the system that much easier to grok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 The combat table has different effects depending on the success levels of the participants. For eg, Crit vs Fail = full damage, plus rolled damage, plus ignore armour, or parrying weapon/shield takes 4 pts of damage. There are 17 cross referenced entries and, whilst most are common sense, there are some entries where there's a lot to take in. I simply won't be able to remember the various outcomes off the top of my head! When I ran a BRP playtest combat, during the playtest session, I found that combat was slowed considerably whilst I figured the results through using the matrix. Of course, I'm old now, and the mind isn't what it used to be. Wibble. On the other hand, most rolls are going to end up with basic successes or failures, which don't need the chart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badcat Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 True, thus 'not that bad'. But I still like the 10% better; for me it lets me relax and get into developing the plot and enjoying the game. Sometimes every little bit you simplify helps. And as Sverre just pointed out you don't lose all that much of the 'flavor'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMS Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 The combat table has different effects depending on the success levels of the participants. For eg, Crit vs Fail = full damage, plus rolled damage, plus ignore armour, or parrying weapon/shield takes 4 pts of damage. There are 17 cross referenced entries and, whilst most are common sense, there are some entries where there's a lot to take in. I simply won't be able to remember the various outcomes off the top of my head! When I ran a BRP playtest combat, during the playtest session, I found that combat was slowed considerably whilst I figured the results through using the matrix. Since I haven't seen it yet, I'll withhold any judgement until I do. The old RQ way for this was that level of attackers success determined damage and bypassed armor with a critical. Level of defenders success determined how affective the parry was (or the dodge). You could have built a matrix, but it really wasn't necessary. Of course, I'm old now, and the mind isn't what it used to be. Wibble. Tell me about it. No doubt part of the charm of all of this is that I already know the system pretty well and have been using it since I was young enough to actually memorize something! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 So really not everyone needs to be good at math, you just need one. Or just print the crit chart on the character sheets. About a third of my group could do it in the head on the fly, but the rest could just look in the margins of their sheets and look it up. The ones who couldn't look it up on the chart were just hopeless and that was that. Some of the RQ sheets even had room to put the crit and special number in with the weapon stats. Fairly useful, although modifers often made the numbers invalid. Still, a player who had a 4% critical chance before Bladesharp, was pretty confident when he rolled an 04 or 05 while under a bladesharp. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aycorn Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Or just print the crit chart on the character sheets. About a third of my group could do it in the head on the fly, but the rest could just look in the margins of their sheets and look it up. The ones who couldn't look it up on the chart were just hopeless and that was that. Some of the RQ sheets even had room to put the crit and special number in with the weapon stats. Fairly useful, although modifers often made the numbers invalid. Still, a player who had a 4% critical chance before Bladesharp, was pretty confident when he rolled an 04 or 05 while under a bladesharp. The FileMaker Pro database I use prints the %, the critical chance, and the fumble chance, each in a different color, so it's right there for ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorloc Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 This is the default for the new BRP. Marvelous. I am happy. And I will offer my services as math tutor to all those who can't divide by ten and halve or double the result. Quote The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." George Carlin (1937 - 2008) _____________ (92/420) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badcat Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 I'll just continue to use 10%, as always.:cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawrence.whitaker Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 And I will offer my services as math tutor to all those who can't divide by ten and halve or double the result. What are your rates? Seriously, its not that people can't divide by ten and then halve, its more a case that you have to do that whilst you have a mind swimming with other things - like keeping a mental track of what's happening in a combat, who's injured, who's readying magic, who's leaping in with a kung-fu kick, and what tactics the GM-controlled adversaries are doing. For a crit, dividing by 10 is a cinch for a slow mental multi-tasker like me. But to divide by ten AND THEN halve/double the result (and am I rounding up, down or to the nearest?) adds another layer of brain-stuff to an already stuffed-brain. Then you might need to cross ref that special success with a crit to determine the appropriate result, as I've pointed out before. Of course, you can build character sheets that have the skill success granularities annotated, and that's a Good Thing, but if you're a GM and working with stats for lots of creatures, or a pre-published adventure, you may not have time to prep all those calculations yourself. This is the reason I don't like Specials. Not because the math is intrinsically hard, but simply because it slows me down considerably. But your Brains (and BRP) May Vary! (and no. I hate using a calculator at the gaming table. Besides, you can always guarantee that the batteries will conk or the solar-cell's knackered). There are sliderules, I suppose... and log tables... Quote The Design Mechanism: Publishers of Mythras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 But, most of the time you don't need to calculate specials and criticals. If I have 70% skill and roll a 50 it's obvious it's a normal hit. If I roll 01 then I have criticalled, no need to work it out. If I roll 02-06 then I need to work out if it is a special or critical. If I roll under 20 then I need to work out if it's a special or normal roll. Other than that, there's no need to work out the chances beforehand. In any case, here's a quick list of skills and their special (20%), critical (5%) and fumble chance. I've based it on RQ3 calculations as I don't have the BRP method to hand. I've also ignored success and failure chances as they should be easy to calculate. Just print it out and hey presto you don't need to do any maths at all. Range Critical Special Fumble -------- -------- -------- -------- 1-7 1 96-100 8-12 1 2 96-100 13-17 1 2-3 96-100 18-22 1 2-4 96-100 23-27 1 2-5 96-100 28-29 1 2-6 96-100 30-30 1-2 3-6 96-100 31-32 1-2 3-6 97-100 33-37 1-2 3-7 97-100 38-42 1-2 3-8 97-100 43-47 1-2 3-9 97-100 48-49 1-2 3-10 97-100 50-50 1-3 4-10 97-100 51-52 1-3 4-10 98-100 53-57 1-3 4-11 98-100 58-62 1-3 4-12 98-100 63-67 1-3 4-13 98-100 68-69 1-3 4-14 98-100 70-70 1-4 5-14 98-100 71-72 1-4 5-14 99-100 73-77 1-4 5-15 99-100 78-82 1-4 5-16 99-100 83-87 1-4 5-17 99-100 88-89 1-4 5-18 99-100 90-90 1-5 6-18 99-100 91-92 1-5 6-18 100 93-97 1-5 6-19 100 98-102 1-5 6-20 100 103-107 1-5 6-21 100 108-109 1-5 6-22 100 110-112 1-6 7-22 100 113-117 1-6 7-23 100 118-122 1-6 7-24 100 123-127 1-6 7-25 100 128-129 1-6 7-26 100 130-132 1-7 8-26 100 133-137 1-7 8-27 100 138-142 1-7 8-28 100 143-147 1-7 8-29 100 148-149 1-7 8-30 100 150-152 1-8 9-30 100 153-157 1-8 9-31 100 158-162 1-8 9-32 100 163-167 1-8 9-33 100 168-169 1-8 9-34 100 170-172 1-9 10-34 100 173-177 1-9 10-35 100 178-182 1-9 10-36 100 183-187 1-9 10-37 100 188-189 1-9 10-38 100 190-192 1-10 11-38 100 193-197 1-10 11-39 100 198-202 1-10 11-40 100 203-207 1-10 11-41 100 208-209 1-10 11-42 100 210-212 1-11 12-42 100 213-217 1-11 12-43 100 218-222 1-11 12-44 100 223-227 1-11 12-45 100 228-229 1-11 12-46 100 230-232 1-12 13-46 100 233-237 1-12 13-47 100 238-242 1-12 13-48 100 243-247 1-12 13-49 100 248-249 1-12 13-50 100 250-252 1-13 14-50 100 253-257 1-13 14-51 100 258-262 1-13 14-52 100 263-267 1-13 14-53 100 268-269 1-13 14-54 100 270-272 1-14 15-54 100 273-277 1-14 15-55 100 278-282 1-14 15-56 100 283-287 1-14 15-57 100 288-289 1-14 15-58 100 290-292 1-15 16-58 100 293-297 1-15 16-59 100 298-302 1-15 16-60 100 303-307 1-15 16-61 100 308-309 1-15 16-62 100 310-312 1-16 17-62 100 313-317 1-16 17-63 100 318-322 1-16 17-64 100 323-327 1-16 17-65 100 328-329 1-16 17-66 100 330-332 1-17 18-66 100 333-337 1-17 18-67 100 338-342 1-17 18-68 100 343-347 1-17 18-69 100 348-349 1-17 18-70 100 350-352 1-18 19-70 100 353-357 1-18 19-71 100 358-362 1-18 19-72 100 363-367 1-18 19-73 100 368-369 1-18 19-74 100 370-372 1-19 20-74 100 373-377 1-19 20-75 100 378-382 1-19 20-76 100 383-387 1-19 20-77 100 388-389 1-19 20-78 100 390-392 1-20 21-78 100 393-397 1-20 21-79 100 398-402 1-20 21-80 100 403-407 1-20 21-81 100 408-409 1-20 21-82 100 410-412 1-21 22-82 100 413-417 1-21 22-83 100 418-422 1-21 22-84 100 423-427 1-21 22-85 100 428-429 1-21 22-86 100 430-432 1-22 23-86 100 433-437 1-22 23-87 100 438-442 1-22 23-88 100 443-447 1-22 23-89 100 448-449 1-22 23-90 100 450-452 1-23 24-90 100 453-457 1-23 24-91 100 458-462 1-23 24-92 100 463-467 1-23 24-93 100 468-469 1-23 24-94 100 470-472 1-24 25-94 100 473-489 1-24 25-95 100 490-500 1-25 26-95 100 Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawrence.whitaker Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Just print it out and hey presto you don't need to do any maths at all. No, just another table to consult... The table's useful, and certainly quicker than my abysmal mental arithmetic, but I'd simply rather have a straight 10% as Crit and not have to worry about whether its a simple success, a special success or a critical success. My mind handles that much better. Its personal preference, I hasten to add; not strictly a system criticism. Your BRP Will Vary. Quote The Design Mechanism: Publishers of Mythras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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