jeffjerwin Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 These are some notes for the adventures I run for my daughter, whose character is an 8-year old lay worshipper of Voria and Vinga. Rune Affinities: Preadolescents: 8-12 30/10/-; two power/form runes at 60/40 Adolescents: 13-17 40/20/10; two power/form runes at 65/35 New Initiates: 18-21 50/30/15; two power/form runes at 70/30 No bonus from Runes to Characteristics until Initiation. Generating Characteristics Preadolescents: 8-12 Adolescents: 13-16 New Initiates: 17-21 STR 2d6 2d6+1d4 3d6 SIZ 2d3+3 2d6+2 [min. 5] 2d6+5 CON as STR DEX 3d6 3d6 3d6 INT 2d6+2 2d6+4 2d6+6 POW 3d6 3d6 3d6 CHA 3d6 3d6 3d6 Cultural skills are gained at -10% for preadolescents, -5% for adolescents and as is for new initiates. Pick parents’ occupation and assign one +10, and three +5s to your skills based on each parent. A new initiate instead takes occupational skills as normal, but does not gain the normal personal skill bonuses. Instead they gain +10 to four skills and +5 to five more skills. An adolescent gets two +10s and three +5s. A preadolescent gets two +5s. If an adolescent or preadolescent rolls under their POWx5 they can learn one point [pre-adolescent] or two points [adolescent] of practical spirit magic. New Initiates start with +10 to one cult starting skill +5 to one other. They gain Cult Lore at 5%, Worship at 5%, and no Meditate skill. They gain 2 points of spirit magic and 1 point of rune magic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Lord Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 I contemplated doing something similar once -- well, at least as a thought experiment. IMO, you can't just take all of the skills and simply transpose them according to some pro-rate -- instead, there are some skills that you only start learning from a certain age. Of course, extra character generation skill points can handily represent the sort of precociousness that these sorts of characters are always defined by. But probably many of the Lore skills could be at 0% base for the very young, Drive 0%, Ride 0% or 5% variable culturally, Peaceful Cut 0%, and so on and so forth as appropriate. Weapons skills might need a little more thought than others. Anyway, I'd say determine each skill base % for each age increment one by one. Age ranges maybe 7-11 ; 12-15 ; 16-19 ? SIZ maybe -- 2d3+3 ; 2d4+4 ; 2d5+5 ? INT should be a straight 2d6+6 ; but CHA 2d3+1d6 ; 2d4+1d6 ; 2d5+1d6 -- or just "as STR", or change STR to this proposed progression ? I would always give at least one point of magic to every player character, unless the player specifically requested otherwise, so maybe keep your idea of the POWx5 roll for adolescents and a second point ? Passions possibly structured 40 / 50 / 60 % ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) Playing pre-adolescent Orlanthi is a bit of a bummer when it comes to magic. Children (up to 18 years for boys when they get unlucky in the availability of initiation groups) don't have any business wielding magic. There are exceptions, children who sacridice their childhood, gaining great magical benefits from that, like Harsaltar and his sisters and playmates when they formed the Household of Death to defend the kingdom of Sartar against the Lunar invasion, or like the magical child kings of the Illaro dynasty. But playing something like this wouldn't be age-appropriate for the player. There might be a way around this while obeying Heortling culture - you could give the magic to a guardian spirit that watches over the child, and place that guardian in the favorite pet or doll of that child character. The guardian could be an ancestor or a genius loci fulfilling an obligation or trying to bring a prophecy along. What exactly doesn't really matter until the player or the character comes of age, or when the story can reach a meainingful point. Pretty much fairy godmother stuff in alynx (or pony) packaging. Disney could produce something like this. Edited July 28, 2018 by Joerg 1 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 8 hours ago, jeffjerwin said: Rune Affinities: Preadolescents: 8-12 30/10/-; two power/form runes at 60/40 Adolescents: 13-17 40/20/10; two power/form runes at 65/35 New Initiates: 18-21 50/30/15; two power/form runes at 70/30 No bonus from Runes to Characteristics until Initiation. I would probably not play Runes on an incremental scale. Generally, the point of the initiation into adulthood is to gain/learn/awaken your Runes. Before then you (and your clan) have no specific awareness of them and you don't get any benefit from them (no magic, no inspiration). That said, from an MGF standpoint, the runes are the building blocks of everything, including every person. You might say that the runes are not yet differentiated so maybe 30/30/10 or 20/20/20 for the elemental runes and all power/form runes at 50/50. However, this is also a world of exceptions. A god or spirit has touched this child and awoken something early, so make one or two runes at 60. There's some awareness of that one element or power and the child can use it for a limited augment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffjerwin Posted July 28, 2018 Author Share Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) Child Characters in RQ:G [Thanks to Joerg, Julian Lord, and Harald for revision suggestions] Rune Affinities: Elements Power/Form Preadolescents: 7-11 30/30/10; two at 55/45 Adolescents: 12-15 35/35/15 two at 65/35 New Initiates: 16-19 50/35/15 two at 70/30 My Rationale: Initiation is awareness of the rune affinity, but these begin to shape a child before awareness of the mysteries: look to the childhood of Orlanth… No bonus from Runes to Characteristics until Initiation. Generating Characteristics: Preadolescents: 7-11 Adolescents: 12-15 New Initiates: 16-19 STR 2d3+1d6 2d4+1d6 2d5+1d6 SIZ 2d3+3 2d4+4 2d5+5 CON 2d3+1d6 2d4+1d6 2d5+1d6 DEX 3d6 3d6 3d6 INT 2d6+2 2d6+4 2d6+6 POW 3d6 3d6 3d6 CHA 2d3+1d6 2d4+1d6 2d5+1d6 Why is INT not 2d6+6? Well, I used to teach children. INT includes decision-making, extrapolation, and critical thinking. These are learned skills. Generating Skills: Base Skill bonuses for children/youth: These base skills are as is for new initiates. If not noted, as adult: Agility: Dive Chariot (00) Swim (00); (10) for adolescents Communication: Bargain (00); (05) for adolescents Disguise (00); (05) for adolescents Intimidate (05); (10) for adolescents Intrigue (00) Orate (05) Language skills (see below) Knowledge: Battle (00) Celestial Lore (00) Customs (see below) Elder Race Lore (00) Evaluate (00) First Aid (05) Homeland Lore (15) Manage Household (05) Mineral Lore (05) Peaceful Cut (00) Survival (05) Treat Disease (00) Treat Poison (00) Magic: All (00) Manipulation: Craft (05) Perception: Insight (own species) (10) Track (00) Stealth: Hide (05) Weapon skills: reduce all by 10, excluding: Dagger (10) Pike (00) Shortsword (05) 1H Spear (05) Crossbow (00) Javelin (05) Rock (15) Self Bow (05) Sling (05) Cultural skills: Crude method: Cultural skills are gained at -10% for preadolescents, -5% for adolescents and as is for new initiates. Detailed method (Sartar only so far): Cultural skills: [7-11] [12-15] [16-19] Ride - - +5% Dance +5% +5% +5% Sing +5% +10% +10% Speak Own L (30) (40) (50) Speak Other - +5% +10% Customs +10% +15% +25% Farm +5% +15% +20% Herd +5% +10% +10% Spirit Comb. - - +15% Dagger - +10% +10% Battle Axe - - +10% 1H Spear - +10% +10% Broadsword - +5% +15% Comp. Bow - +5% +10% Sling +5% +10% +10% Javelin - +10% +10% Medium Sh - - +15% Large Sh - - +10% Pick parents’ occupation and assign one +10, and three +5s to your skills based on each parent. Most should be assigned to Lore or professional knowledge. A new initiate instead takes occupational skills as normal, but does not gain the normal personal skill bonuses. Instead they gain +10 to four skills and +5 to five more skills. An adolescent gets two +10s and three +5s. A preadolescent gets two +5s. Magic: If an adolescent or preadolescent rolls under their POWx5 they have an object [such as piece of jewelry, clothing, or toy containing up to one point [pre-adolescent] or up to two points [adolescent] of practical spirit magic. GMs may waive the roll if the campaign centers around children. New Initiates start with +10 to one cult starting skill +5 to one other. They gain Cult Lore at 5%, Worship at 5%, and no Meditate skill. They gain 2 points of spirit magic and 1 point of rune magic. Edited July 28, 2018 by jeffjerwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said: New Initiates: 16-19 50/35/15 two at 70/30 Initiation into adulthood gives you your full Runic abilities: 60/40/20 and two at 75/25. You do not need cult initiation to have this - adulthood is your right of passage. What you get with cult initiation is the awareness of how to use those runes to cast Rune Magic. 11 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said: New Initiates: 16-19 I don't see a need to segregate characteristics for this age group though YGWV. 13 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said: New Initiates start with +10 to one cult starting skill +5 to one other. They gain Cult Lore at 5%, Worship at 5%, and no Meditate skill. They gain 2 points of spirit magic and 1 point of rune magic. Keep in mind that initiation into adulthood does not equal initiation into a cult so new adults should not have any rune magic. You can't participate in any cult rites until you are an adult. At that point, you may participate as a lay member and begin training to satisfy cult initiation requirements (and may pay/work to learn spirit magic). But it may well be 2-4 years before there is a new initiation rite into Orlanth for instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigtrygg Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 What ever happened to lay membership of cults? I remember RQ campaigns back in the day when PCs would be lay members of several cults so they could buy stuff/train etc but even the step up to initiate required a major commitment that is at odds with PC as an adventurer paradigm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffjerwin Posted July 28, 2018 Author Share Posted July 28, 2018 33 minutes ago, jajagappa said: Keep in mind that initiation into adulthood does not equal initiation into a cult so new adults should not have any rune magic. You can't participate in any cult rites until you are an adult. At that point, you may participate as a lay member and begin training to satisfy cult initiation requirements (and may pay/work to learn spirit magic). But it may well be 2-4 years before there is a new initiation rite into Orlanth for instance. Oh! Hmm. That's new to me. Voria and Voriof are said in earlier books (3rd ed.) to be the lay cults of Heortling children. If this is true, what differentiates them from the cults which have adult non-initiates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffjerwin Posted July 28, 2018 Author Share Posted July 28, 2018 35 minutes ago, jajagappa said: I don't see a need to segregate characteristics for this age group though YGWV. Mostly my perception from working with teenagers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 11 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said: Mostly my perception from working with teenagers. RQ2 started characters off at 15-16, just after becoming adults; RQG at roughly 21, have completed cult initiation and some further experience. But stats the same in both cases. In real world, yes, agree that there is still development through those years in many features. Gloranthans seem to come of age sooner. Really depends on how much bookkeeping you want in the Background time going from year-to-year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) 35 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said: Oh! Hmm. That's new to me. Voria and Voriof are said in earlier books (3rd ed.) to be the lay cults of Heortling children. If this is true, what differentiates them from the cults which have adult non-initiates? I think Voria and Voriof are seen as effectively guardians/protectors of children/youths before initiation. Perhaps they serve as 'play' models of what life is like as adults. But there is no initiation to them, no magic from them for children. SKoH p.73 notes "Your rune affinities are a part of you, but you are awakened to them with your adulthood initiation" and "A child cannot do rune magic." And SKoH p.76 "All Orlanthi undergo a formal initiation ceremony conducted by their clan elders, parts of which are the most closely held secrets of the clan. This rite transforms you from a child to an adult, with full benefits and responsibilities in the society. Your initiation rites were probably performed when you were between the ages of 15 and 19. “God Learner” sorcerers called those who had achieved this status “Lay Members” and shall be used in this book even though that term has little use to the Orlanthi. These adulthood rites included a preparatory period of guidance and education, a period of time spent away from mundane society, a solemn test of you as an individual, and a final ceremony which transformed you into a full, adult member of society and a worshipper of the Orlanthi gods. The climax of the ritual involved your trip to the Gods World. It was during these rituals that your Man’s Breath was awakened or your Woman’s True Self was born. The rituals can be dangerous, it has been known for children or even elders to die or be lost during the initiation process. Your rune powers woke within you and you received roles in the clan rituals (usually simply as one of the crowds of Thunder Brothers or Weaver Women). Afterwards, the god-talker tattooed you with the markings of clan and rune." A good example is the initiation of Argrath as an adult in the Prince of Sartar comic. Effectively you are initiated into the clan and the rites of the gods when you become an adult. Whether you ever are fully initiated is another story (though I'm sure exceptional individuals who achieve both may occur). More in Thunder Rebels p.58 (though it made too much of subcults, there's still lots of core information on Heortling/Orlanthi society) "The Heortling Rites come first, which make children into adults, individual and recognized. Heort and his wife Ivarne taught these rites to everyone, and all Heortling clans use them today. Before their initiation, children are called “Not Adults.” They do not have full rights or responsibilities, are forbidden certain things (such as having sex or learning magic), and observe worship of the pantheon without any understanding of the secrets. During the adulthood rites, boys and girls both discover their place in a world of supernatural power, their expectations as members of a community, the consequences of failure, and the rewards of success. The adulthood rites are segregated by gender. Girls are initiated after they begin menstruation. Their rites last about two weeks, and are held every year. Boys are initiated sometime after they turn fourteen. A clan usually conducts the rites only about once every five years, so boys may be as old as nineteen before they become men. Afterwards, the new man or woman is an adult of the clan. He or she may wed, own cattle, and speak at clan moots. After the Heortling Rites, the former children are “New Adults” for at least two years while they discover which deity has chosen them. The New Adults are full members of the religion. They receive roles in the rituals (usually simply being one of the crowd of Thunder Brothers or Weaver Women), and must shoulder their appropriate burdens in society. Wergild is fixed by the family’s status (cottar or carl for most people). In game terms, the New Adult is a communal worshipper of the entire Orlanth Pantheon. They do not learn any specific magic until they actually become initiates of Orlanth, Ernalda, or another deity. When the Heortling Rites end, each New Adult names the deity that they think (or hope) has chosen them. Occasionally, this will be obvious to them and even to others. Most people choose a subcult of Orlanth or Ernalda. The New Adults receive instruction on worship during the next year. At the end of the first year the groups meet again, and this time the elders assign a deity for each New Adult to learn about for a year. This is usually a subcult of Orlanth or Ernalda, as appropriate to the New Adult’s occupation." You can see these distinctions as well even back in the older RQ2 cult writeups: E.g. for Orlanth: "Orlanth welcomes almost all beings who breathe air. This includes all the Elder Races (yes, Trolls too). Lay Members must have reached their maturity (between 16 and 20 for humans) and must make the choice to join by their own free will." and "The prospective Initiate of the cult of Orlanth must have belonged to the cult for at least a year as a Lay Member, and must make a formal rejection of former cult ties and swear to devote himself “to the winds.” He pledges himself to follow his priest and his god. He must have a sponsor who is already an Initiate. He must pass a test given by the Priest." The "test" in these cases are the formal initiation rites of the respective cult. Edited July 28, 2018 by jajagappa 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Lord Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 1 hour ago, jeffjerwin said: Why is INT not 2d6+6? Well, I used to teach children. INT includes decision-making, extrapolation, and critical thinking. These are learned skills. Children aren't less capable of decision-making and extrapolation, what they lack compared to adults here is experience. In other words knowledge, which is represented in RuneQuest by the skills system. But in some respects, children are actually more intelligent than adults, their minds are certainly a lot more adaptive, less constrained by existing patterns, more inquisitive, and so on. More importantly though to my mind is that in Glorantha, a character's INT is a part of his soul, or spirit, or essence, etc, rather than being a measurement of IQ or of general learning or similar. I'd have less of a disagreement with you on this point in many other settings or BRP game rules, but Gloranthan RuneQuest rules have always defined INT as being part of a character's immaterial nature, perhaps existing before birth and persisting hopefully after death. Call of Cthulhu does distinguish between INT and EDU, for example ... As for critical thinking, well, I think you're actually assuming an expectation of the culture you belong to as characterising what Intelligence is in an ontological manner, except that not only is it foreign to Western culture prior to the 19th Century, but it's even foreign to several of our contemporary intellectual traditions Western and otherwise. Critical thinking is essentially a method of applying one's intelligence instead of being the intelligence itself, but not only isn't it quite the same as say Oxonian scepticism or French esprit critique, and rather different to eastern European dialectic, but it would be hard to demonstrate that it had any meaningful superiority over say Classical pro et contra, Buddhist not-self intellectual meditation, etc etc. And I think anyway that you're trying to represent as "Intellect" something that the Orlanthi culturally will experience in Initiation. Initiation transforms the mind of an Orlanthi to very much the same degree that a mastery of critical thinking or of some other intellectual methodology will transform that of one of our contemporaries. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Lord Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 I actually have to agree with Harald -- the "young initiate" category would probably be best represented as the basic unmodified skills on the character sheet, and the basic attributes of standard character creation but without the bonuses from Runes, cult Initiation, experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffjerwin Posted July 28, 2018 Author Share Posted July 28, 2018 27 minutes ago, Julian Lord said: I actually have to agree with Harald -- the "young initiate" category would probably be best represented as the basic unmodified skills on the character sheet, and the basic attributes of standard character creation but without the bonuses from Runes, cult Initiation, experience. This works for me, on reflection. It also makes running a newly 'initiated' adult much easier... I'll post revisions later tonight or tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffjerwin Posted July 28, 2018 Author Share Posted July 28, 2018 49 minutes ago, Julian Lord said: And I think anyway that you're trying to represent as "Intellect" something that the Orlanthi culturally will experience in Initiation. Initiation transforms the mind of an Orlanthi to very much the same degree that a mastery of critical thinking or of some other intellectual methodology will transform that of one of our contemporaries. I assume you mean adult initiation here. There is a need here for two different terminologies... Initiation in an anthropological sense = adult initiation = 'rite of passage' 'entry into adulthood'. I'll use 'rite of adulthood' for this in revisions. Cultic initiation = roughly corresponds the chrismation/confirmation among Christians. 'mysterion'. Because of longstanding usage, I'll use 'initiation'. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Lord Posted July 28, 2018 Share Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, jeffjerwin said: I assume you mean adult initiation here. There is a need here for two different terminologies... Initiation in an anthropological sense = adult initiation = 'rite of passage' 'entry into adulthood'. I'll use 'rite of adulthood' for this in revisions. Cultic initiation = roughly corresponds the chrismation/confirmation among Christians. 'mysterion'. Because of longstanding usage, I'll use 'initiation'. I'd actually mean both separately. I mean Initiation as a practise, not Initiations considered in their detail. And I don't think it's like the Initiation Rites of Christianity -- a Conversion experience is somewhat more like an Initiation than the Christian Rites, which are, outside their sacramental nature, in the functional sense an ecclesial and social recognition of such a Conversion in someone. However, Conversion is a more mystical event, similar to what some god-touched Orlanthi might experience in an Initiation certainly, but would be more like some of those rare cases which exist of an Orlanthi being chosen by a particular god or goddess or spirit or whatever outside of the normal Initiation practices. But it's more similar to what might occur in other cultures, whether that's Lunar Illumination, some surprise manifestation of the Invisible God to a young Rokari, a sudden insight discovered by a Vormaino martial artist. It's a radical change unlooked-for, whereas Initiation is a radical change that's transmitted through a ritual and magical test. Edited July 28, 2018 by Julian Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffjerwin Posted July 28, 2018 Author Share Posted July 28, 2018 (edited) I think it useful to have "New Adults" (as I'll rename them) detailed out so one could start a campaign with the run-up cultic initiation, like in Apple Lane... The adolescent category is also useful if you want to actually run someone's adulthood rites. These might be used as 'prequels' to the main campaign if, as in Argrath's experience, these events presage later events in the story. Edited July 28, 2018 by jeffjerwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffjerwin Posted July 29, 2018 Author Share Posted July 29, 2018 Omitting all the unchanged bits: Runic Affinities: Elements Power/Form Preadolescents: 7-11 30/30/10; two at 55/45 Adolescents: 12-15 35/35/15; two at 60/40 New Adults*: 16-17 60/40/20; two at 75/25 *New adults have undergone the rite of passage into adulthood (note this takes place a little earlier for girls, depending on diet, since it’s based on menstration). My Rationale: Initiation is awareness of the rune affinity, but these begin to shape a child before awareness of the mysteries: look to the childhood of Orlanth… No bonus from Runes to Characteristics until Initiation. Generating Characteristics: Preadolescents: 7-11 Adolescents: 12-15 New Adults: 16-17 STR 2d3+1d6 2d4+1d6 2d5+1d6 SIZ 2d3+3 2d4+4 2d5+5 CON 2d3+1d6 2d4+1d6 2d5+1d6 DEX 3d6 3d6 3d6 INT 2d6+6 2d6+6 2d6+6 POW 3d6 3d6 3d6 CHA 2d3+1d6 2d4+1d6 2d5+1d6 The only other change is that "new adults" - lay tribes folk - get 2 points of spirit magic but no rune magic (as yet). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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