Earthpower

[womble]

I noticed something a bit odd about Earthpower, so I did a little search and couldn't find any mention of this oddity.

It's Self, Instant, Stackable. It returns 1d8 MP for the first 3 points and an additional d8 MP per extra stacked Rune Point; these remain until they are used. I assume always that any one-use points of stuff are used up first. That's straightforward enough.

It also provides 1 point of POW (for base 3, plus 1 per stacked additional RP) which 'disappear at the end of the spell's duration'. Which, given it's 'Instant', is 'immediately'. So not very useful. Should it be a Temporal spell? I think it should, since I imagine it needs to have been cast before you're rendered unconscious by 0 MP (or dead by 0 POW).

I can see that the intent might be that it's an automatically-cast 'last resort' spell which doesn't have to be 'running' to save your bacon, but still, it needs a duration longer than Instant for the POW element as described to be any more than a "Yay I didn't die! Oh, no, wait, it's gone again. Urk [expires]" moment.

Another question: do the additional points of POW allow you to exceed your racial maximum if it's '0 MP' that's triggered the spell?

 

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, Anunnaki said:

A 3 point "don't lose my soul from POW loss or fall unconscious from MP loss" spell seems pretty good to me as is. Anything more is gravy. 😊

The trick is to still have 3 Rune Points available when you hit the deck. The RQ2/3 mechanics didn't have that issue!

[womble]

You can't make the POW gain permanent. It's a reusable spell. A Stackable reusable spell.

I have 5 Rune Points. My POW is 18.

I cast Earthpower, stacked with all my RP.

I cast MP til I pass out while standing on Earth.

I get 3 permanent POW, taking my score to 21.

I sacrifice those for more RP.

I pray at the next opportunity and get my RP back.

If the POW gain was to be permanent you'd have to make it a one-use spell, so that it's not an escalator to a CHA-full of RP and a treasury full of Enchantments (including a Matrix of Earthpower stacked so anyone I like can use it). If the POW goes away at the end of the spell, so would any results of sacrificing that POW, and since it's 'at the end of the spell', even Extension can't make that permanent, because even overwriting the Earthpower early wouldn't stop the first spell ending and the POW disappearing.

[PhilHibbs]

2 minutes ago, womble said:

You can't make the POW gain permanent. It's a reusable spell. A Stackable reusable spell.

I have 5 Rune Points. My POW is 18.

I cast Earthpower, stacked with all my RP.

I cast MP til I pass out while standing on Earth.

I get 3 permanent POW, taking my score to 21.

No, you gain 1 POW and 1D8 MP.

2 minutes ago, womble said:

If the POW gain was to be permanent you'd have to make it a one-use spell, so that it's not an escalator to a CHA-full of RP and a treasury full of Enchantments (including a Matrix of Earthpower stacked so anyone I like can use it).

I don't think this spell could be used as a matrix. You have to have the spell yourself, I think, and it automatically triggers.

Temporary (for the spell's duration) POW is not much use to anyone, and permanent is an exploit for a reusable spell so I think it has to be one-use, and I'd have it give 2 or 3 POW personally.

[womble]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

No, you gain 1 POW and 1D8 MP.

p327

Quote

 

Each additional Rune point added to the Earthpower spell returns an additional 1 POW and 1D8 magic points

 

So 3 points for the first and an additional 2 makes 5 Rune Points. 3 POW, 3d8 MP

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think this spell could be used as a matrix. You have to have the spell yourself, I think, and it automatically triggers.

Temporary (for the spell's duration) POW is not much use to anyone, and permanent is an exploit for a reusable spell so I think it has to be one-use, and I'd have it give 2 or 3 POW personally.

It really isn't clear how it works. If it's required to be pre-cast to activate when you hit whichever zero triggers the effect, it has to be Temporal. If you're to get any use out of the temporary POW, it has to have a duration, too. If you don't have a handy Restore Health, you'd better have enough Extension to make the effect last til you can find one, or the end of the Season when you'll probably succeed on your POW gain roll. It sorta makes sense as one-use, since it's a kind of Resurrection.

I'd assume it won't trigger if you hit zero POW because of Divine Intervention directed at the God who's providing the Earthpower.

 

 

 

 

  

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, womble said:

p327

So 3 points for the first and an additional 2 makes 5 Rune Points. 3 POW, 3d8 MP

Ah, I see. Still 2 points lower than the Rune Points loss, so if it were one-use then it would involve a net loss in POW, which was what I was thinking of.

Going by the prior implementations of the spell, you sacrifice for it and it automatically casts itself when you hit the deck. I think the intention is the same in RQG. I suppose a matrix in your possession (preferably in contact with you such as an arm torc, necklace, headband, hair pin, etc.) would be ok. Creating a matrix of this spell should effectively give you the casting condition automatically, as it's part of the nature of the spell that it self-activates.

As a general principle, ask "what should this spell be doing", and that should lead to a solution.

Edited August 29, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[g33k]

1 hour ago, womble said:

...

I'd assume it won't trigger if you hit zero POW because of Divine Intervention directed at the God who's providing the Earthpower.

I think many deities would be willing to invest some POW into the survival of a faithful servant who was forward-thinking enough and powerful enough to have an Earthpower spell waiting to trigger...

YGMV.

[Zozotroll]

Yes I think you are correct.

[PhilHibbs]

3 hours ago, womble said:

I'd assume it won't trigger if you hit zero POW because of Divine Intervention directed at the God who's providing the Earthpower.

But... it's specific purpose is that it DOES trigger at zero POW. Why do you think it would not do what the spell specifically says it does do?

Oh I see, I misunderstood what you are saying. Yeah, if you *pop* due to DI then I think you are right.

Edited August 29, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[womble]

I can sort of see where the "God looking after their powerful worshippers" might motivate them to let Earthpower make up for rolling exactly the wrong number, it does seem a bit of a cheese to have no risk of "final death", just because you've got access to a 3 point spell. Less so if the spell is one-use. A wicked mind might make the spell auto-cast when you hit zero POW and expend all your remaining Rune Points up to 20 (to get you back up to POW 18 and maintain your status as Priest, presuming you've still got 5 Rune Points left because of your Extended Charisma spell that you cast  )

How about:

[suggestion]

Earthpower

3 points

Self, Temporal or Instant, Stackable, may be one-use

This spell enables the caster to draw upon the strength of the earth to save them in a time of mortal or existential peril. They must be physically in contact with the earth  for this effect to happen. The spell does not have to have been actively cast before it is needed; it takes effect when the caster has 3 or more unused Rune Points and either the caster's magic points reach zero, or the caster's POW reaches zero.

If the caster’s magic points fall to 0, Earthpower enables them to draw both 1 point of POW and 1D8 magic points directly from the earth, preventing unconsciousness. The caster may choose to stack more Rune Points with the spell when it activates. Each additional Rune point added to the Earthpower spell returns an additional 1 POW and 1D8 magic points. The spell is of Temporal duration and Rune Points expended return as usual. All benefits of this version of the spell are temporary: POW granted by the spell disappears at the end of the spell (as do any effects for which that POW was sacrificed); any magic points in excess of the caster’s magic point total are lost when spent, and do not regenerate.

If the caster's POW falls to zero, the situation is dire. Earthpower enables the character to draw 1 point of permanent POW and 1D8 magic points from the earth, preventing destruction of the soul and final and permanent death-without-afterlife. The spell is instant and Rune Points expended are permanently gone, as this version of the spell is a one-use magic. The existential nature of the threat which this spell aims to protect from means that the spell draws upon all Rune Points of the character so far unexpended to add an additional point of permanent POW and an additional 1d8 magic points per Rune Point so (permanently) expended. The maximum POW attained by this expenditure is 18 ( so the most additional Rune Points that it will expend is 17, for a total of 20). Any magic points in excess of the new maximum magic point total based on the generated POW are temporary and are lost when spent (and are spent first), not regenerating. This version of the spell will activate if POW and magic points both reach zero simultaneously.

It is possible for the activation of this spell to cause a Priest (or Rune Lord-Priest) to fall below the thresholds required by their Cult for their status. How that situation is dealt with will vary by Cult, but most will grant a leave of absence for a Priest to regain the requisite number of Rune Points and level of POW, during which they would have the (lower) status of God Talker within the Cult. A High Priest would lose their status over other Priests and may have to regain their position from their successor once they've regained the base requirements for being Priest and any additional qualifications that made the position theirs in the first place.

[/suggestion]

I think:

• Making it one-use for standing you up at 0 POW seems a bit draconian. Having it one-use for surviving annihilation seems pretty reasonable.
• The suggestion above clarifies how the spell is meant to work: it's an automatic self-recovery mechanism.
• It clarifies the benefits and means that it cannot be farmed for POW to sacrifice.
• Each version addresses the issue it's having to deal with at an appropriate level.
• The instinctive drawing on Rune Points to regain POW seems like a reasonable 'side effect'. If the POW loss is temporary and can be cured, the character can resacrifice POW to get their Rune Points back, but there's potential for net loss there if the returned POW plus their new POW exceed racial maxima before they have a chance to prepare by sacrificing some of the new POW for Rune Points to make that not the case.
• The suggestion doesn't address the issue of what the God does if the 'dropping to zero POW' version is activated by a Divine Intervention rolling exactly the wrong number.

Whaddaya think?

[womble]

The reason to make it Temporal for the magic point use case is so that the POW goes away. Having a one use, three point spell rescue you from dropping to 0 magic points regardless of circumstance seems a bit punitive to me. Not all lost spirit combats will even result in Possession, and desperate last-ditch Heal spells (for an example I've seen in play in previous versions) certainly don't merit permanent Rune Point loss. Making the Instant, POW-to-zero, use case one use pretty much squelches any abuse, and rescuing you from annihilation is pretty good, but it seems too easy to 'lose' it for the negation of a non-existential (or even non-existent) threat. At 3 points, it should be comparable to Resurrection and Seal Soul in power and utility, without inappropriate 'trivial use' downsides.

Deliberately burning 3 (or more) RP (even reusable ones) for 1d8 magic points is a desperation measure, sure, but burning that many one use RP for the gain? Not a game-fair return for the player.

[MJ Sadique]

11 hours ago, womble said:

1/ The reason to make it Temporal for the magic point use case is so that the POW goes away.

... 

2/ it seems too easy to 'lose' it for the negation of a non-existential (or even non-existent) threat. At 3 points, it should be comparable to Resurrection and Seal Soul in power and utility, without inappropriate 'trivial use' downsides.

1/ No need to... you may no know this but Earthpower properties had already been clarified for the Quickstart and it's still the same for RQG (mainly because it was post in CoC thread)

Characteristic of RuneSpell (RGQ p317) state "Unless the spell description says otherwise, all Rune magic spells are passive with a duration of 15 minutes and a range of 160 meters." In the quickstart Styopa asked for clarification and Jason Durall replied that " The extra POW goes away at the end of the spell's duration. It's not a permanent thing."

As the rules of runes spells are still the same in RQG, the same answer is still ok. The idea was good Womble but it's already in the rules (a bit tricky ^^)

 

2/ The spell state " ... to save them in a time of mortal or existential peril. " If you lose you MP but are not peril, the spell which work as a blessing won't activate ! Remember in term of Gloranthan Mythology that you cannot exploit gods (they exploit you !!!). Earthpower is much like Antaeus 's power : as a giant and the son of gaia, he was immortal as long as he touches the earth but was killed by Heracles bear's hug !

[PhilHibbs]

29 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

In the quickstart Styopa asked for clarification and Jason Durall replied that " The extra POW goes away at the end of the spell's duration. It's not a permanent thing."

So you go down to 0 POW, the spell kicks in and gives you 1 POW, and after 15 minutes (even though it's an instant spell...) it goes away and your soul is still destroyed. Not much use, really!

[MJ Sadique]

One problem solved and yet another surface ... 😂

Let's get back to Earthpower origin and meaning in case of POW loss :
1/ It' s here to save you from a peril : You cannot trigger it when not in danger or by the sacrifice your power to a god (for a miracle).
2/ Excess MP are lost when used or when the spell ended : with 15MP max, if you get +24MP (3D8) then you've got to spend the 9 excess MP or lose them all at the end of the spell
3/ You gain additional POW, saving you from death from a drain (by a vampire or sorcerer) : As an instant spell, you get immediately your extra POW and a lot of MP. Two cases 

• First case, if you follow strictly the spell description, You have 15min for a "Baroud d'honneur" to utterly annihilate your "very surprised" enemy. Which is a bit off for a earth spell unless you pray some violent goddess like Babeester Gor.
• Second case, if you follow Gloranthan Mythology n' Earth's Goddess logic (of protecting) : the POW you regain is permanent but the extra POW points (in excess of you actual value -before drain-) are indeed lost. Exactly like the excess of MP...

Don't also forget that the spell description also include in case of all MP lost :
1/ You get extra MP, excess lost when used or at the end of the spell
2/ You get additional POW to your actual value (to defend again some spells) and this extra is lost when spell ended (extra which cannot be scarified because you got only 15min).

[womble]

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

So you go down to 0 POW, the spell kicks in and gives you 1 POW, and after 15 minutes (even though it's an instant spell...) it goes away and your soul is still destroyed. Not much use, really!

We're back to our old friend Extension, I guess. So you'd better have a few RP available when your POW gets tapped to zero, so you can a) cast the Earthpower, b) stack the Earthpower and get a few POW to work with, and c) Extend it until you can get either a POW gain roll (which you'd better make...) or reach someone who can restore your lost Characteristics with a Restore Health.

6 hours ago, MJ Sadique said:

...you may [not] know this but Earthpower properties had already been clarified for the Quickstart...

Please can you link to where these clarifications are? I am aware of the Errata thread, but that's closed and empty.

The rest of your comments, I can't tell what's your interpretation and what's referred to in authoritative sources.