Spirit World Help

[Narl]

I'm probably going to have a lot of Spirit World questions, but I'll start with the ones that focus on interacting with spirits from the Middle World. I really appreciate any help with this as I have a player with an Assistant Shaman adventurer and I need to have adequate answers.

The sprit spell Second Sight says "This spell does not allow the user to view the Spirit World." Later, in the spirit combat section on page 336 the rules say, "If a spirit wishes to attack a corporeal being, the spirit makes itself visible in the Middle World the melee round prior to its first attack. Shamans can see the spirits at all times using Second Sight, and they would normally be aware of the spirit’s malign intention to attack before it becomes visible."

So does Second Sight allow a shaman to see spirits without looking into the Spirit World? Are they able to see all spirit or just ones associated to beings with a presence in the Middle World?

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Narl said:

I'm probably going to have a lot of Spirit World questions, but I'll start with the ones that focus on interacting with spirits from the Middle World. I really appreciate any help with this as I have a player with an Assistant Shaman adventurer and I need to have adequate answers.

The sprit spell Second Sight says "This spell does not allow the user to view the Spirit World." Later, in the spirit combat section on page 336 the rules say, "If a spirit wishes to attack a corporeal being, the spirit makes itself visible in the Middle World the melee round prior to its first attack. Shamans can see the spirits at all times using Second Sight, and they would normally be aware of the spirit’s malign intention to attack before it becomes visible."

So does Second Sight allow a shaman to see spirits without looking into the Spirit World? Are they able to see all spirit or just ones associated to beings with a presence in the Middle World?

IMO Second Sight only gives the ability to see spirits that are in the same segment of reality as the observer, it doesn't allow the view across the curtain.

Shamans have their permanent spirit world presence through their fetch, they exist on both sides of the curtain. Their Second Sight is the normal perception beyond the curtain, and is active on the mundane side.

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, Narl said:

I'm probably going to have a lot of Spirit World questions, but I'll start with the ones that focus on interacting with spirits from the Middle World. I really appreciate any help with this as I have a player with an Assistant Shaman adventurer and I need to have adequate answers.

The sprit spell Second Sight says "This spell does not allow the user to view the Spirit World." Later, in the spirit combat section on page 336 the rules say, "If a spirit wishes to attack a corporeal being, the spirit makes itself visible in the Middle World the melee round prior to its first attack. Shamans can see the spirits at all times using Second Sight, and they would normally be aware of the spirit’s malign intention to attack before it becomes visible."

So does Second Sight allow a shaman to see spirits without looking into the Spirit World? Are they able to see all spirit or just ones associated to beings with a presence in the Middle World?

That is something I am planning to clarify in a forthcoming Rune Fix. Basically Second Sight does not let you see the Spirit World, but it does let you see spirits. So you see the mundane world plus nearby spirits. What you don't see is the geography of the Spirit World behind/beneath/above/within our world.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

That is something I am planning to clarify in a forthcoming Rune Fix. Basically Second Sight does not let you see the Spirit World, but it does let you see spirits. So you see the mundane world plus nearby spirits. What you don't see is the geography of the Spirit World behind/beneath/above/within our world.

When I wrote those rules I thought the distinction was pretty obvious, but it is now clear that clarification is needed.

[Psullie]

In my opinion, how you perceive those Spirits can be radically different too. from the Middle World Second Sight will reveal the existence of entities and a suggestion of their power. Set through the veil and the experience could be mind-blowingly different

[g33k]

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

That is something I am planning to clarify in a forthcoming Rune Fix. Basically Second Sight does not let you see the Spirit World, but it does let you see spirits. So you see the mundane world plus nearby spirits. What you don't see is the geography of the Spirit World behind/beneath/above/within our world.

Do some/all spirits get a similar perspective?  Seeing the Shaman, and maybe other things like active magic, but not the rest of the mundane world (geography etc)?

[Joerg]

14 minutes ago, g33k said:

Do some/all spirits get a similar perspective?  Seeing the Shaman, and maybe other things like active magic, but not the rest of the mundane world (geography etc)?

I think it is similar to watching some underwater scene, only that spirits give off some active "light" under Second Sight which does get weakened by interspersed dense matter. The curtain analog probably is quite apt as you might perceive spiritual endowed entities in the mundane world from the spirit world like candles through a textile. Similar curtains - possibly weaker - might separate different spirit realms from one another.

[Narl]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

That is something I am planning to clarify in a forthcoming Rune Fix. Basically Second Sight does not let you see the Spirit World, but it does let you see spirits. So you see the mundane world plus nearby spirits. What you don't see is the geography of the Spirit World behind/beneath/above/within our world.

Thanks for the clarification, that is how it reads it is just spread across two separate sections of the book.

I really like the Rune Fix format by the way. It is great having the updates and additions with full artistic layout in a single document, so I hope you guys continue that practice.

[Jeff]

8 minutes ago, Narl said:

Thanks for the clarification, that is how it reads it is just spread across two separate sections of the book.

I really like the Rune Fix format by the way. It is great having the updates and additions with full artistic layout in a single document, so I hope you guys continue that practice.

That's the plan. So far there really hasn't needed to be much so the Rune Fix format is really easy.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Do some/all spirits get a similar perspective?  Seeing the Shaman, and maybe other things like active magic, but not the rest of the mundane world (geography etc)?

That's generally how I play spirits that are not manifest in the world (either through spirit combat or by existing in both worlds, like elementals, wraiths, ghosts, etc.). 

So when I run Second Sight, I tend to treat it like a strange ultra-violet torch that shows off invisible spirits near this world. They appear in strange places, and are beautiful, ghastly, terrifying, whatever. Cast Second Sight within a temple, and there is a swarming host of spirits of the cult.

[styopa]

24 minutes ago, Jeff said:

So when I run Second Sight, I tend to treat it like a strange ultra-violet torch that shows off invisible spirits near this world. They appear in strange places, and are beautiful, ghastly, terrifying, whatever. Cast Second Sight within a temple, and there is a swarming host of spirits of the cult.

That's a really good visualization, also then helpfully explaining why it doesn't look through/past mundane objects for example.

My only "sigh" about Second Sight is that shamans become more or less "magic item detectors" because they can Second Sight at will, making magical traps, loot, etc all simpler for the players than I wish they were. 

 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, styopa said:

... My only "sigh" about Second Sight is that shamans become more or less "magic item detectors" because they can Second Sight at will, making magical traps, loot, etc all simpler for the players than I wish they were. 

+1

Not that I don't take ruthless advantage of it when I get to be a player ... 😁

I may need to IMG this issue...  Maybe there's some wood that blocks 2nd Sight, that looks like emptiness beyond.  Or Illusion-rune magic.  It doesn't have to be terribly common, but shouldn't be so rare as to make folks operate on a normal assumption that there isn't any around.

Likewise for some sort of pseudo-item aura effects.  Maybe trickser spirits that like to invest a MP into an item so it's all glow-y to 2nd Sight ...

Dunno.  It wants more thought...

 

[Jeff]

9 hours ago, styopa said:

That's a really good visualization, also then helpfully explaining why it doesn't look through/past mundane objects for example.

My only "sigh" about Second Sight is that shamans become more or less "magic item detectors" because they can Second Sight at will, making magical traps, loot, etc all simpler for the players than I wish they were. 

 

If you use a lot of "magic traps" that have POW (remember it is not a detect magic spell, but essentially it is a See POW spell), then give them lots of false positives. There are lots of spirits everywhere, lurking near our world.

[Jeff]

Second Sight and Soul Sight

These spells allows the recipient to see POW of living things, including incorporeal spirits nearby that have not yet manifested in the material world. These spells do not permit the viewer to peer into the Spirit or Divine Worlds and see their magical geography behind, beneath, beyond, within our world.

The exact function of these spells can be described in many ways. One common way is to treat the spells as creating a strange ultra-violet torch that shows off invisible spirits near this world. These spirits can appear in strange places, corners, immediately in front of the viewer, etc., and can be beautiful, ghastly, terrifying, etc. Cast Second Sight or Soul Sight within a temple, and the viewer may be overwhelmed by the sheer volume of spirits swarming about.