Ran the Bear Hunt from Core Book and I have Some Questions

[StonesThree]

Hello!

I recently started my first Pendragon game and I am pretty sure I stuffed up the bear hunt from the core book. Luckily my players are cool about things. I just wanted some feedback from GMs who have run it before on a few things. If that is OK?

The PC's hunted the bear on horseback. Now is that realistic? I assume horses would be OK on forest trails and worn paths, but if the bear ran off into heavy woodland would a horse be able to follow? Would the rider risk hurting the horse  by doing so? (I've never done any horse riding in real life myself.) Now I couldn't find any rules for moving across difficult terrain in the rules, so I assume I would apply a -5 penalty to skill roles to control the horse and keep up the chase? 

Once they found the bear one of my players decided to charge it with his horse. This sounded... um... not a great idea to me... anyway I made the player do a horsemanship role to see if the horse would let him. Then used the damage value from the horse stats in the book. Was that right? (At this point I stuffed up the combat rules and didn't make it an opposed attack so the horse didn't take any damage. I am very much stuck in the DnD method of "I hit you, then you hit me" style of combat.)

I forgot a load of combat rules like knockdown. I imagine watching a fellow PC being pinned to the ground with an angry bear tearing lumps out of him would have focused the other players minds a bit!

Still getting my head around traits. Should I have made the players make a Valourous roll before they could engage the bear in combat? One of my players has a 16 in it.

There were more questions but I have forgotten them... they may come back to me. 

BTW - Is there a GM screen for this game? I google it but couldn't find any.

Thanks for reading!

[Morien]

It is very much OK to ask for advice in this Forum. It is practically what it is for!

1. Hunting on horseback: I think the assumption in the adventure is that they'd be on foot, but many other creatures are hunted on horseback, so it is not unrealistic as such.

2. Charging the bear on horseback: I would not allow this. Generally speaking, I don't allow lance charges in a forest, unless it is along an actual road or a clearing. A game path is twisty and windy enough, and not wide enough to pass the target, so you'd be crashing your horse into the bear. The horse doesn't want to do that! Finally, you'd only use the horse's damage stat for LANCE CHARGES. If you are poking with a spear from the saddle or swinging your sword, you are using your own damage stat. And yes, it should have been opposed rolling, only the winner does damage.

3. Valorous rolls: I wouldn't mandate these for a mere bear, but I could see that for squires, just to showcase how the Trait system works. Trait 16 doesn't make you immune to Trait TESTS, IMHO. It simply means that if you have a CHOICE whether you wish to act Valorous or Cowardly, you HAVE TO CHOOSE Valorous, unless you roll and  FAIL your Valorous 16.

Example of a choice:  "You have the evening free. Do you wish to spend the time flirting with the ladies (check Lustful), booze up with the knights (check Indulgent), attend the evening mass (check Pious) or something else, what?" In this case, someone with Chaste 16 COULDN'T choose flirting with the ladies unless they rolled and failed Chaste 16 first. Someone with Chase 15 could pick it up straight away, and I would require someone with Lustful 16 to choose flirting unless they roll and fail Lustful 16 first.

Example of a test: "The sultry lady (actually a succubus) tries to seduce you. Roll Chaste to resist." In this case, it is less of a choice and more of a triggered test of your Trait. It doesn't matter what your Trait is, you are still rolling it. I generally reserve these kinds of trait tests to (semi-)magical encounters, not for mundane ones, which I keep as a choice. Note that many beasts and monsters mandate Valorous rolls, possibly with minuses before you can engage them in combat. These would be tests, too; you have to roll and succeed in Valorous, no matter what your Valorous trait is. Even if it is modified to 1, you can still succeed, despite your Cowardly being 19.

4. GM screen: There is none, but @Atgxtg just mentioned that he is in a process of compiling his own. Maybe he can share it with us once he is done?

 

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask! Welcome to the community!

 

 

 

[soltakss]

36 minutes ago, StonesThree said:

The PC's hunted the bear on horseback. Now is that realistic? I assume horses would be OK on forest trails and worn paths, but if the bear ran off into heavy woodland would a horse be able to follow? Would the rider risk hurting the horse  by doing so? (I've never done any horse riding in real life myself.) Now I couldn't find any rules for moving across difficult terrain in the rules, so I assume I would apply a -5 penalty to skill roles to control the horse and keep up the chase? 

Sure, of course it is reasonable. A warhorse will fight in combat, a cavalry horse will allow you to fight in combat but other horses might need a Horsemanship roll to go against a bear.

38 minutes ago, StonesThree said:

Once they found the bear one of my players decided to charge it with his horse. This sounded... um... not a great idea to me... anyway I made the player do a horsemanship role to see if the horse would let him. Then used the damage value from the horse stats in the book. Was that right? (At this point I stuffed up the combat rules and didn't make it an opposed attack so the horse didn't take any damage. I am very much stuck in the DnD method of "I hit you, then you hit me" style of combat.)

Using a lance against a bear is a perfectly good tactic, so why not? 

I am not really familiar with Pendragon combat to comment on the damage etc, but what you did sounds OK to me.

[Cornelius]

About hunting. As far as I know (and play in my games): 

A classic hunt consists usually about a few phases. First of all you need to find some trail of your prey (This is a hunting roll). When you do a chase (usually on horseback) happens as the hunters try to corner the beast (Hunting oppossed to Avoidance). When the beast is cornered a signal is given to all the other hunters and they assemble quickly (Awareness for those stragglers). The final phase happens when the hunters try to slay the beast (Weaponskill (usually Spear) vs Avoidance). If the beast wins it escapes and the chase begins anew. Some beast, like a bear, may turn and fight, so he opposes with his own weapon skill. The kill is usually granted to the character with the highest glory present at that moment, although he may give the chance to another. a host could give it to his special guest for instance. 

Also remember that the prey may attack the horse in stead of the rider. A bear may be an exception to this. This is the reason a boar hunt is done on foot with a special Boar spear (It has a cross beam to prevent it from running up your spear).

Of course you can if you wish make the hunt more fun and they have to continue on foot when the beast runs into a thick wood where the horses cannot follow. But remember that this probably only works for a boar or a roebuck, and not for larger game like bears and red deer. If they can get through so could your horse. (But thick woods are an obstacle as far as I know).

Lance charges should be rare. So only if they manage to corner the beast using a critical would I allow it, and only for the first round as things get crowded real fast.

About rolls:

One of the fun parts of the KAP system is that you roll opposed in combat. This reduces the number of dice rolls. Also a lot of the fighting is one on one, while D&D sometimes tends the whole group jumping on one character. You are knight and you can stand your ground on your own. It is those vile enemies (Bandits, Picts, Saxons,...) that cheat.

About traits:

I mostly agree with Morien on how to use them. I tend to use most of the trait rolls as opposed rolls. So if you are seduced by a succubus I would make it a Chaste vs Lustful roll. I allow those with an amor or Love(wife) to exchange the Chaste with that passion. So even a Lustful character can be chaste aat such moments if he has a high Love (wife). So even a chaste 16+ can fail here. 

A lot of the Arthurian drama is about knights failing in their traits and passions and afterwards trying to amend those failures.

 

[Atgxtg]

StonesThree, feel free to ask away-that's what a forum is for!

 

• Generally, lance charges on a hunt are rare and you only get them if the lead hunter  manages to get close enough for the "free" surprise attack per the Avoidance rules on pp. 210-211. If a knight can fight mounted or or foot has to do with the terrain, circumstances, and if he wishes to risk a fine horse. 
• You certainly can (and should apply modifiers to hunts for the terrain, that's just what the obstacle tables does! But remember that coursers are trained for this , and get a +5 to Horsemanship rolls in the forest.
• The hunting rules in KAP 5.2 are broken up over three section, which makes it a bit more difficult to use. 
• One of the best ways to get your head around the rules is to run some "sparring practice" between the Player characters. Have them use withheld blows (so actual damage is halved), and let them fight it out. You can even do a dry run without the players to familiarize yourself with how it works. Basically:
  • Both sides make an opposed roll.
  • Winner does damage to the loser.
  • Compare the full damage roll to the lower's SIZ to check for knockdown. If SIZ or greater than a DEX roll (foot) or Horsemanship roll (mounted) is required to stay up. If 2xSIZ then loser is knocked down automatically. Being knocked off a horse does 1d6 damage through armor.
  • Then take the damage rolled, halve it (because they are withholding blows and not trying to kill each other) and subtract the loser's armor. If his roll was successful (a partial success) he gets to subtract his shield, too.  
  • When sparring like this no one should get seriously hurt, and someone should stop the fight is someone gets hit for more than a couple points,or if someone gets knocked down a few times. 
  • Afterwards the wounded get treated with first aid (that's per wound, so in this case most if not all damage should be patched up right away).
• Valorous Rolls: It depends,. If it is their first bear, then probably, but for a seasoned knight, no. But feel free with trait rolls. Greg tended to be much freer with them in the adventures than indicated in the core rules, and the best way to learn is by doing. Try to give each PK a trait roll or two in each adventure to start. Then you can adjust the frequency from there to suit your taste and style of play. Basically, the trait rolls reflect the setting and source material, and make it challenging for a PK to act in a virtuous or heroic manner all the time, but many players don't like how that restricts their actions, so you have to work out just how often you want to roll. Personally, I like a lot of trait rolls, as do my players. But you might not, especially since it is a new concept. In old D&D terms it's kinda like alignment, but instead of penalizing the PC for playing "out of character," it defines just what is in character for them.

[Cornelius]

On 3/16/2019 at 3:06 PM, Atgxtg said:

StonesThree, feel free to ask away-that's what a forum is for!

• One of the best ways to get your head around the rules is to run some "sparring practice" between the Player characters. Have them use withheld blows (so actual damage is halved), and let them fight it out. You can even do a dry run without the players to familiarize yourself with how it works. Basically:
  • Both sides make an opposed roll.
  • Winner does damage to the loser.
  • Compare the full damage roll to the lower's SIZ to check for knockdown. If SIZ or greater than a DEX roll (foot) or Horsemanship roll (mounted) is required to stay up. If 2xSIZ then loser is knocked down automatically. Being knocked off a horse does 1d6 damage through armor.
  • Then take the damage rolled, halve it (because they are withholding blows and not trying to kill each other) and subtract the loser's armor. If his roll was successful (a partial success) he gets to subtract his shield, too.  
  • When sparring like this no one should get seriously hurt, and someone should stop the fight is someone gets hit for more than a couple points,or if someone gets knocked down a few times. 
  • Afterwards the wounded get treated with first aid (that's per wound, so in this case most if not all damage should be patched up right away).

And to make things complex.

There are a lot of houserules in this game and every GM approaches things different. For instance I use withheld blows a bit different.

I let players record damage as normal, although they heal after they have some time to take a breath. When the remaining hitpoints are lower than the unconscious level you have to give up. When a critical is rolled for to hit you roll normal damage first. this is real damage and when it exceeds armour (and shield) draws blood. Then you still roll a second time with rebated damage. 

But then YPMV (Your Pendragon may vary)

[Atgxtg]

6 minutes ago, Cornelius said:

And to make things complex.

There are a lot of houserules in this game and every GM approaches things different. For instance I use withheld blows a bit different.

I let players record damage as normal, although they heal after they have some time to take a breath. When the remaining hitpoints are lower than the unconscious level you have to give up. When a critical is rolled for to hit you roll normal damage first. this is real damage and when it exceeds armour (and shield) draws blood. Then you still roll a second time with rebated damage. 

But then YPMV (Your Pendragon may vary)

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of withheld blows? 

For instance if a Knight with 8 points of armor and 24 hit points take a hit for 34 damage. That would bring his hit points down to -2 and check his chiruguery needed box.Or do you assume the damage is non lethal and the knight is just knocked unconscious for awhile?

[StonesThree]

On 3/16/2019 at 10:23 AM, Morien said:

It is very much OK to ask for advice in this Forum. It is practically what it is for!

1. Hunting on horseback: I think the assumption in the adventure is that they'd be on foot, but many other creatures are hunted on horseback, so it is not unrealistic as such.

2. Charging the bear on horseback: I would not allow this. Generally speaking, I don't allow lance charges in a forest, unless it is along an actual road or a clearing. A game path is twisty and windy enough, and not wide enough to pass the target, so you'd be crashing your horse into the bear. The horse doesn't want to do that! Finally, you'd only use the horse's damage stat for LANCE CHARGES. If you are poking with a spear from the saddle or swinging your sword, you are using your own damage stat. And yes, it should have been opposed rolling, only the winner does damage.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

My player didn't attack the bear from horseback with a lance or spear. He used the horse as a battering ram! (Much the same way a police officer might use his car to ram a crooks car off the road in high speed chase.)  I couldn't find any rules for this so just improvised. I suspect they will try this again against other opponents at some point. Running down men during battle I expect.

The next time I do a hunt I will spend a bit more time thinking about the woodland and the terrain. Try to describe the mud, low hanging branches, strange mists, random birds flying in their faces as they blunder their way through it. I imagine that woods in the 5th century were a lot more alive and mysterious then they are today.

On 3/16/2019 at 2:06 PM, Atgxtg said:

StonesThree, feel free to ask away-that's what a forum is for!

 

• Generally, lance charges on a hunt are rare and you only get them if the lead hunter  manages to get close enough for the "free" surprise attack per the Avoidance rules on pp. 210-211. If a knight can fight mounted or or foot has to do with the terrain, circumstances, and if he wishes to risk a fine horse. 
• You certainly can (and should apply modifiers to hunts for the terrain, that's just what the obstacle tables does! But remember that coursers are trained for this , and get a +5 to Horsemanship rolls in the forest.
• The hunting rules in KAP 5.2 are broken up over three section, which makes it a bit more difficult to use. 
• One of the best ways to get your head around the rules is to run some "sparring practice" between the Player characters. Have them use withheld blows (so actual damage is halved), and let them fight it out. You can even do a dry run without the players to familiarize yourself with how it works. Basically:
  • Both sides make an opposed roll.
  • Winner does damage to the loser.
  • Compare the full damage roll to the lower's SIZ to check for knockdown. If SIZ or greater than a DEX roll (foot) or Horsemanship roll (mounted) is required to stay up. If 2xSIZ then loser is knocked down automatically. Being knocked off a horse does 1d6 damage through armor.
  • Then take the damage rolled, halve it (because they are withholding blows and not trying to kill each other) and subtract the loser's armor. If his roll was successful (a partial success) he gets to subtract his shield, too.  
  • When sparring like this no one should get seriously hurt, and someone should stop the fight is someone gets hit for more than a couple points,or if someone gets knocked down a few times. 
  • Afterwards the wounded get treated with first aid (that's per wound, so in this case most if not all damage should be patched up right away).
• Valorous Rolls: It depends,. If it is their first bear, then probably, but for a seasoned knight, no. But feel free with trait rolls. Greg tended to be much freer with them in the adventures than indicated in the core rules, and the best way to learn is by doing. Try to give each PK a trait roll or two in each adventure to start. Then you can adjust the frequency from there to suit your taste and style of play. Basically, the trait rolls reflect the setting and source material, and make it challenging for a PK to act in a virtuous or heroic manner all the time, but many players don't like how that restricts their actions, so you have to work out just how often you want to roll. Personally, I like a lot of trait rolls, as do my players. But you might not, especially since it is a new concept. In old D&D terms it's kinda like alignment, but instead of penalizing the PC for playing "out of character," it defines just what is in character for them.

Thanks for the quick combat rules summary. I was thinking of putting them in a flowchart to use at the table.

I am using KAP5.0 (The one with the boar on the front cover) as I bought it years ago for another group. That group fell apart before I had a chance to run it. Are the rules explained differently/better in 5.2?

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, StonesThree said:

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

My player didn't attack the bear from horseback with a lance or spear. He used the horse as a battering ram! (Much the same way a police officer might use his car to ram a crooks car off the road in high speed chase.)  I couldn't find any rules for this so just improvised.

There used to be rules for that in a previous supplement, but they haven't been updated to 5th edition, yet. Basically to do this sort of thing requires that a horse be specially trained, and most wouldn't do it normally and the most likely outcome is that the boar gets underneath the horse and rips it up. 

The way it used to work is  that the horse has to be "attack trained" as opposed to just combat trained, by a one of Horsemasters from a great city such as London, which is rare, especially in the early Periods. This gave the horse a Bash Attack at 1d6+7, which cannot be raised.  

In order to Bash the horse had to first make it's attack roll, which would usually be opposed by the target, and then roll under it's SIZ, subtracting the sise of the target. If the horse succees the target has to make a DEX roll or fall down. On a critical success the target is knocked down automatically and take 1d6 damge. On a failure the horse falls down, taking it own damage roll, and throws the rider. On a fumble it falls on the rider who must make a horsemanship roll to "only" fall for 1d6, otherwise getting trapped underneath his horse and takes it's damage dice from the crush.

4 hours ago, StonesThree said:

I suspect they will try this again against other opponents at some point. Running down men during battle I expect.

They would probably be better off with the Hoof/Trample from the same supplement.  But generally the reason why there are no rules for it is becuase warhorses haven't been developed to the point where they can do that sort of stuff yet. 

4 hours ago, StonesThree said:

The next time I do a hunt I will spend a bit more time thinking about the woodland and the terrain. Try to describe the mud, low hanging branches, strange mists, random birds flying in their faces as they blunder their way through it. I imagine that woods in the 5th century were a lot more alive and mysterious then they are today.

There is a obstacle table in the hunting rules with stuff like that on page 223, or page 195 for KAP5.

4 hours ago, StonesThree said:

Thanks for the quick combat rules summary. I was thinking of putting them in a flowchart to use at the table.

I am using KAP5.0 (The one with the boar on the front cover) as I bought it years ago for another group. That group fell apart before I had a chance to run it. Are the rules explained differently/better in 5.2?

Not really, but there is a lot of errata worth looking up. Whoever did the proofreading or editing on KAP 5 messed a lot of stuff up. For instance, Stat increases from Glory points can break any other rule or limitation, meaning that a character can have STR 30,  Sword 27, Loyalty (Lord) 22, or some such if he gets enough glory and want to spend it that way. Also if a character splits his skill when fighting multiple opponents he can do damage to more than one opponent if he wins. 

Here is a link to the official errata, which I think covers most of it: http://www.gspendragon.com/totalerrata.html

Also 5.1 and 5.2 have made a push towards starting during the reign of King Uther, and there is even a supplement (actually, more than one) dedicated around that time. 

The real differences in the rules comes in the "Book of..." line of supplements. Generally each one of these takes some aspect of the game and expands upon it. It still the same game, and the game mechanics don't change all that much but they go into more detail about certain aspects. For example, The Book of the Entourage has information detailing squires, wives and other followers. Now of these books are required to play the game,  but they can be used to enhance the game. The Book of Battle provides a more detailed battle system, where the PKs can actually sway the course of the battle somewhat with their actions. Now a GM is free to use either Battle System or even both depending on how he wants to present a particular battle.That's pretty much ow the line works. You don't need any of it, but you might like to have and use it. 

 

Oh, and do you have the Great Pendragon Campaign?

 

[StonesThree]

Thanks Atgxtg.

I do have the GPC and intend to follow it along. I also picked up the Book of Uther recently but haven't read it yet.

I wasn't sure about the other supplements. I don't think my players are going to want to get into estate management too much. We only play for 3 hours a week and I want to focus the sessions on them roleplaying and doing cool stuff. So I was just going to stick to the rules in the core book. And none of us are wargamers so I'm still in two minds about the battle system. I've only glanced at it so far. 

Luckily one of my players has made an outdoorsman Knight. A ranger if you will. And he declared that the bear could not have been attacking people without cause. So now I am spinning a whole adventure of outlaws in the woods using dark magic to terrorise the poor little villagers... who are not as innocent as they appear. But it should give us time to learn the combat rules better, etc, before throwing the GPC at them. And gives me more time to read it and get ready.

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, StonesThree said:

Thanks Atgxtg.

I do have the GPC and intend to follow it along. I also picked up the Book of Uther recently but haven't read it yet.

I wasn't sure about the other supplements. I don't think my players are going to want to get into estate management too much. We only play for 3 hours a week and I want to focus the sessions on them roleplaying and doing cool stuff. So I was just going to stick to the rules in the core book. And none of us are wargamers so I'm still in two minds about the battle system. I've only glanced at it so far. 

The Book of the Manor is probably the one you want to avoid then.It's nice but is all about managing the knight manor. Ironically, Estate, despite being about bigger areas of land is actually, or maybe because of that, handles things in a simpler faster way. It mostly comes down to the manor providing £10/year to the knight of which £9 is spent to maintain himself, squire, wife, some spearmen, a chaplain, and so on, leaving the knight £1 to spend as he likes every year. Much simpler than rolling for the harvest each year. 

Estate does have some land improvements and fornications, but what it probably is best for is showing you just how much money (or how little) and how many knights a given area can support. Basically it works out to 1 manor = 10 =1 knight and two foot soldiers (with a third footsoldier serving the king). 

5 hours ago, StonesThree said:

Luckily one of my players has made an outdoorsman Knight. A ranger if you will. And he declared that the bear could not have been attacking people without cause. So now I am spinning a whole adventure of outlaws in the woods using dark magic to terrorise the poor little villagers... who are not as innocent as they appear. But it should give us time to learn the combat rules better, etc, before throwing the GPC at them. And gives me more time to read it and get ready.

Sounds like you got a handle on things. I used to have a bandit leader that could shapershift into a large wolf that did something similar-until the knights killed him. It took them years to finally get the guy though, wolves run pretty fast. Bandits can be good sword fodder , just be careful with numbers. Pendragon fights tend to go quickly, too.

[Sir Mad Munkee]

Saw this post the day before running the Imber bear hunt myself, and as a side note: the description of the hunt actually says "finding the best way to ride through the brush" (pg. 225 KAP 5.2), so you definitely didn't do that bit wrong.

[TerryTroll]

On 3/18/2019 at 1:30 PM, Atgxtg said:

The Book of the Manor is probably the one you want to avoid then.It's nice but is all about managing the knight manor. Ironically, Estate, despite being about bigger areas of land is actually, or maybe because of that, handles things in a simpler faster way. It mostly comes down to the manor providing £10/year to the knight of which £9 is spent to maintain himself, squire, wife, some spearmen, a chaplain, and so on, leaving the knight £1 to spend as he likes every year. Much simpler than rolling for the harvest each year. 

Estate does have some land improvements and fornications, but what it probably is best for is showing you just how much money (or how little) and how many knights a given area can support. Basically it works out to 1 manor = 10 =1 knight and two foot soldiers (with a third footsoldier serving the king). 

Thanks for this I wasn't sure what if any of those two to pick up first/at all. I think a broad view like the Estates book seems best for my group too.

[Atgxtg]

If I were to Prioritize the supplements the order I'd pick, (and the reasons why) would  probably be:

1. Great Pendradon Campaign (Because it gives you the timeline, framework, and adventures; it's about as close to a "must have' supplement as anything for KAP)
2. Book of Knights & Ladies (Because it expands upon chargen and gives chargen for character from other lands)
3. The Book of Uther (Because it expands upon the timeline in the GPC, giving you another decade or so to game in.)
4. Book of the Estate (Because it gives the PKs some libra to spend, so they can take advantage of virtually everything else; it also has what  the fornication rules currently exist)
5. Book of the Entourage (It gives details on squires, wives, marriages, and anybody else the PKs want to have working for them)
6.  Book of Armies (Because it gives you lots of different armies that the PKs can fight against, and despite being designed for the Book of Battle, the tables can be used with the Battle System in the core rules. Mind you some of the units are a bit overpowered, but it's still gives a good idea of what armies for Point A or Point B would look like)
7. Book of Battle (Because it turns Battles into a real event)
8. Book of Feasts (Because it turns feats into a real even; and it a lot of fun)
9. Book of Sires (Because it gives more detailed family history; it also can be used to expand the timeline to before the reign of Uther)
10. Book of the Warlord (Although very useful and gives a good insight into the forces available, it not something that will really impact the typical the player knights much.)
11. Book of the Manor (Because it is the most time intensive of the lot and require the most bookkeeping, plus Estate and Entourage let you do 85% of what Manor does in a lot less time with a lot less bookkeeping)
12. 12. Book of Record Vol 1 (Because while the sheets are nice, you can print off a character sheet, so other things take priority)
13. 12. Book of Records Vol 2 (As above only moreso as Battle sheets are a one per Battle thing.)

 

And that's just keeping things in within the KAP5 line. If I were to open it up to earlier editions it would get a lot more complicated. 

 

[Hzark10]

16 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

If I were to open it up to earlier editions it would get a lot more complicated. 

Each to his own.  I like to have the fullness of the campaign already ready to go, so my list would be different. 

Of course, Book of Sires would be at the top as it gives a much deeper background of the history and sweeping events than other publications. The fact that it has my name in it has nothing to do with it.

Book of Uther for the same reason and gives much more info about Uther himself.  

Book of Knights and Ladies as it shows the differences between the various cultures and knights that come from them.

GPC

Book of Estate/Entourage as these help the PK develop their character as they are played.

If you ask every gamemaster, they will have their own list, but I think it boils down to what your players like and want.  Mine want full backgrounds and normally create their own, so that gives certain books more emphasis.

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, Hzark10 said:

Each to his own.  I like to have the fullness of the campaign already ready to go, so my list would be different. 

Fair enough. 

 

4 hours ago, Hzark10 said:

Of course, Book of Sires would be at the top as it gives a much deeper background of the history and sweeping events than other publications. The fact that it has my name in it has nothing to do with it.

LOL! The reason why I don't rate is higher is that it wouldn't get used all that much. It gets used during the first session when the players write up their characters and then gets put away. Since the game follows family lines, the players merely need to add their own deeds to the backstory for the next generation. It might get used a couple of times for alternate characters or new players but each family only gets one history per campaign. 

4 hours ago, Hzark10 said:

Book of Uther for the same reason and gives much more info about Uther himself.  

I can't see rating that higher than the GPC. The group will play through the book of Uther in four months realtime,  and the GM will be left to wing it, but the GPC gives an outline for the entire campaign. I'm not saying BoU isn't a great book, but if I didn't already have all the books, I'd get the GPC first. 

 

4 hours ago, Hzark10 said:

If you ask every gamemaster, they will have their own list, but I think it boils down to what your players like and want.  Mine want full backgrounds and normally create their own, so that gives certain books more emphasis.

Yeah, pretty much, although I'd add in what the GM likes to that list and play styles in there too. 

Case in point, most of my player LOVE the Book of the Manor, yet I HATE running with it. My last campaign had sessions where we spent more time doing land management with the BoM that we did playing the rest of the game.  There were several reasons for this, mostly with the players, rather than with BoM, but the end result was very unpleasant to run. This campaign I am using Estate for land management (with a few things from Manor being available), made one change to K&L and things are running much better. Everybody is having a better time too. 

[Hzark10]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

although I'd add in what the GM likes to that list and play styles in there too. 

Granted, but sometimes I find myself taking the back seat...

You raise good points, and that is why I always fall back to: YPMV.

[Atgxtg]

1 minute ago, Hzark10 said:

Granted, but sometimes I find myself taking the back seat...

Me too, and I'm the one stuck driving. 

1 minute ago, Hzark10 said:

 I always fall back to: YPMV.

It does, but probably not as much as we think. I've often seen GMs disagree about something, yet in the end they were both dealing with the same problem but approaching  it in different ways.Sometimes their solutions would be very similar. 

[Cornelius]

On 3/17/2019 at 5:12 PM, Atgxtg said:

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of withheld blows? 

For instance if a Knight with 8 points of armor and 24 hit points take a hit for 34 damage. That would bring his hit points down to -2 and check his chiruguery needed box.Or do you assume the damage is non lethal and the knight is just knocked unconscious for awhile?

Yes I assume the damage is non lethal, zo even if you are hit below 0 there is no problem. You are knocked unconscious and probably wake up with a splitting head ache, but no chirurgery needed.

[Cornelius]

On 3/19/2019 at 6:19 PM, Atgxtg said:

If I were to Prioritize the supplements the order I'd pick, (and the reasons why) would  probably be:

1. Great Pendradon Campaign (Because it gives you the timeline, framework, and adventures; it's about as close to a "must have' supplement as anything for KAP)
2. Book of Knights & Ladies (Because it expands upon chargen and gives chargen for character from other lands)
3. The Book of Uther (Because it expands upon the timeline in the GPC, giving you another decade or so to game in.)
4. Book of the Estate (Because it gives the PKs some libra to spend, so they can take advantage of virtually everything else; it also has what  the fornication rules currently exist)
5. Book of the Entourage (It gives details on squires, wives, marriages, and anybody else the PKs want to have working for them)
6.  Book of Armies (Because it gives you lots of different armies that the PKs can fight against, and despite being designed for the Book of Battle, the tables can be used with the Battle System in the core rules. Mind you some of the units are a bit overpowered, but it's still gives a good idea of what armies for Point A or Point B would look like)
7. Book of Battle (Because it turns Battles into a real event)
8. Book of Feasts (Because it turns feats into a real even; and it a lot of fun)
9. Book of Sires (Because it gives more detailed family history; it also can be used to expand the timeline to before the reign of Uther)
10. Book of the Warlord (Although very useful and gives a good insight into the forces available, it not something that will really impact the typical the player knights much.)
11. Book of the Manor (Because it is the most time intensive of the lot and require the most bookkeeping, plus Estate and Entourage let you do 85% of what Manor does in a lot less time with a lot less bookkeeping)
12. 12. Book of Record Vol 1 (Because while the sheets are nice, you can print off a character sheet, so other things take priority)
13. 12. Book of Records Vol 2 (As above only moreso as Battle sheets are a one per Battle thing.)

 

And that's just keeping things in within the KAP5 line. If I were to open it up to earlier editions it would get a lot more complicated. 

 

My list would look a bit different as well, but You give a good overview of what each book offers.

As for Book of Sires. It may give you the option to get some more background on the various regions the players are running through. For instance I had forgotten the link between Vortimer and Powys.

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Cornelius said:

As for Book of Sires. It may give you the option to get some more background on the various regions the players are running through. For instance I had forgotten the link between Vortimer and Powys.

Indeed! I'm doing just that right now. A couple of my players went on vacation and I'm writing up some handouts to cover what they were doing while the rest of the group was on the adventure. Since I've been wanted to bring in some Berroc Saxons and the PKs are going to London. This was a good time to introduce them. Book of Sires has been pretty helpful in that regard. I now know that Berroc Saxons have been there since they arrived with Flavius Stilicho c.400, which was very useful to me since I started the campaign in 410.