RQ Magic Vs. Game Tropes

[styopa]

15 hours ago, Jeff said:

It really depends on which culture you are talking to. I don't mean to be funny, but when you look at an international audience, the D&D tropes are not always the main trope setting for frpgs. There are even some parts of the gaming world where Call of Cthulhu is the cultural default for frpgs!

An absolutely fair point.  I was speaking from an ethnocentric US viewpoint, which is absolutely not universal.  Good observation.

15 hours ago, Oracle said:

In fact I would say, the trope setting for FRPGs is The Lord of Rings, which is also the role template for a lot of other fantasy novels and games - and especially for D&D, which was the first FRPG being published. But that's one of the reasons, why I like Glorantha so much, because it is such a change compared to all the copies.

Not to sound elitist, but my observation is that the D&D standard elves/dwarves/dragons/dungeons thing tends to eventually wear thin, and longer-term players of a certain outlook tend to want something more from their setting and game.  This OF COURSE depends a huge amount on the GM...certainly 5e *can* deliver a subtle, rich, varied, non-canonical world FRP experience.  ...but it's not what you get opening the box, so to speak.

10 hours ago, The God Learner said:

Note that the literary sources of D&D are far broader than LOTR, and not only because of the threat of lawsuits. Vance, Leiber, Burroughs, Howard, Anderson, and so on. Have a look at the books in Appendix N for a gateway drug of sorts; there is far worse to read. (http://digital-eel.com/blog/ADnD_reading_list.htm) You will find the origins of forgetting spells, the Assassins Guild, regenerating green trolls and much more.

One of our players - the one deeply into sorcery (math major in college, surprised?)  - admits he's basically forever spoiled against D&D because of his deep, visceral dislike of Vancian magic.  Loves the Dying Earth books as much as I do, but as a world to PLAY IN, Glorantha's magics just seem so much more authentic and "realistic".

[g33k]

12 minutes ago, styopa said:

... he's basically forever spoiled against D&D because of his deep, visceral dislike of Vancian magic.  Loves the Dying Earth books as much as I do, but ...

So give him 5e Src&War, and deprecate the Wiz, and Done.   😉

(I hate gaming with Vancian magic too; though I too like reading the works.)

[The God Learner]

12 minutes ago, styopa said:

Loves the Dying Earth books as much as I do, but as a world to PLAY IN, Glorantha's magics just seem so much more authentic and "realistic".

Well, to each his own and I hope he continues to have fun.

 

[Tywyll]

On 4/1/2019 at 9:39 AM, Joerg said:

I've seen that claim all over, but then where are the wizards unable to wield a sword? Gandalf is a master of his sword.

That was simply a 'game balance' issue. They wanted magic swords to belong to Fighters exclusively because originally magic swords tended towards having special abilities quite often, making them the fighting man's magic staff. 

On 4/1/2019 at 9:39 AM, Joerg said:

The cleric of the anonymous deity owes a lot to Bishop Odo of the Bayeux tapestry fame.

It owes more to Hammer Horror films though, as that was the original inspiration for the first cleric PC. The Bishop stuff came later. 

On 4/1/2019 at 9:39 AM, Joerg said:

D&D is a mash-up of numerous tropes. The entire thief guild trope has been lifted from Lhankmar, where it was introduced as a paradoxical institution.

The main Middle Earth contribution to D&D are the halflings, dwarves and the seed for various goblin types, including the orc and the half-orc. The elves crept in via Middle Earth pastiches rather than directly, and inherit from other sources like Poul Anderson's Sword and the Stone, too.

Elves came from Three Hearts and Three Lions (soulless beings...hence elves originally being unable to be revived by raise dead). 

On 4/1/2019 at 9:39 AM, Joerg said:

I usually argue that the Brithini are a rather good parallel for Tolkien's high elves, in a process of parallel evolution - immortal island in the west, and all that stuff. Which leaves the aldryami as a diminutive version of ents.

Is there a good source for Brithini lore? I can only find fragments of them here and there. 

On 4/1/2019 at 9:39 AM, Joerg said:

Tunnels and Trolls uses the same races as the Fellowship of the Ring, too. Were halflings a playable race in OD&D, or did T&T start the halfling madness?

OD&D had hobbits! At least in the early printings. And Balrogs. But also robots! And of course lots stolen from John Carter, Green Martians and White Apes.

On 4/1/2019 at 9:39 AM, Joerg said:

IMO the most playable dwarves and elves are the ones from Midkemia, another early rpg setting which became influential through Raymond Feist's novels starting with Magician. It notably made do without orcs and hobbits.

There was a Midkemia rpg setting?!? Where/when was that?

On 4/1/2019 at 9:39 AM, Joerg said:

The Warhammer skirmish rules with their takes on the Tolkien monsters probably were as influential. The later whimsical Europe WHFRP setting took that lead minis inspired setting to a new direction.

When it comes to modern influences, I guess Warcraft is at least as great a carrier of memes as is D&D, and to me it looks more like it inherited from fantasy skirmish games like Warhammer than straight from the D&D memes. The player base of such computer games is easily as big as that of D&D.

Yeah, agreed. It's a case of the child having greater influence than the parent.

On 4/1/2019 at 9:39 AM, Joerg said:

Baldur's Gate has of course infected the computer "role playing" game world with D&Disms. Elder Scrolls with its shared RQ design DNA might be a better base to jump off than D&D.

Everyone can learn spells...check. Everyone can learn skills...check. Good call! 

[Joerg]

3 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Elves came from Three Hearts and Three Lions (soulless beings...hence elves originally being unable to be revived by raise dead). 

My contact with D&D lore was through ADHD 1st edition, which no longer had such discrimination. It also had the dreaded half-elves.

3 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Is there a good source for Brithini lore? I can only find fragments of them here and there. 

Revealed Mythologies is the best collection of such snippets. Add the description of Arolanit in the second volume of the Guide, the snippets in the God Learner Maps, and you have pretty much all that was officially published.

There is quite a bit more in unpublished stories by Greg, but those were produced in a very small print run as rewards for 1000$+ backers of the Guide, or some of them auctioned off as single copies of ring-bound photocopies at conventions. Given how much I paid for my copy of Hrestol's Saga, that backers reward was a steal.

3 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

OD&D had hobbits! At least in the early printings. And Balrogs. But also robots! And of course lots stolen from John Carter, Green Martians and White Apes.

I own German translations of the red and light blue Moldvay boxes, but never played those. In the mid eighties northern Germany, playing the Moldvay boxes was akin to playing DSA (the first and second editions, nowadays The Dark Eye), and not that well regarded by the D&D and convention grognards from the late seventies.

Were these in the rules, or did they appear in scenarios?

3 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

There was a Midkemia rpg setting?!? Where/when was that?

Not published as the complete setting, but plenty high quality locales. Check out https://www.rpg.net/columns/designers-and-dragons/designers-and-dragons13.phtml

The setting of the Riftwar era could be reverse engineered from a combination of those products and the novels by Feist. There is a wiki: https://midkemia.fandom.com/wiki/Midkemia_Wiki

 

3 minutes ago, Tywyll said:

Everyone can learn spells...check. Everyone can learn skills...check. Good call! 

To be honest, I never played either. The only such game other than rogue-like ASCII questing (mainly Nethack) that I ever played a tíny bit was Betrayal at Krondor on someone else's computer (still was using my Atari ST at the time). I did play the original Warcraft.

[Tywyll]

23 minutes ago, Joerg said:

My contact with D&D lore was through ADHD 1st edition, which no longer had such discrimination. It also had the dreaded half-elves.

Ahem...you might want to check again. That's in there, in the Raise Dead spell description, and spelled out in great detail in Deities and Demigods...elves have spirits not souls...I think this allows Resurrection to work on them, but I could be fuzzy on that. As a kid who had never read 3H & 3L I had no idea why my Tolkein elves were being called 'soulless'... 

23 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Revealed Mythologies is the best collection of such snippets. Add the description of Arolanit in the second volume of the Guide, the snippets in the God Learner Maps, and you have pretty much all that was officially published.

There is quite a bit more in unpublished stories by Greg, but those were produced in a very small print run as rewards for 1000$+ backers of the Guide, or some of them auctioned off as single copies of ring-bound photocopies at conventions. Given how much I paid for my copy of Hrestol's Saga, that backers reward was a steal.

Humm...disappointing. I only recently discovered Brithini (going back over Sandy's Sorcery rules) so of course they peeked my curiosity. 

I feel like the 1000+ backer thing was a terrible terrible no-good idea. It literally ring-fences some of the world setting behind a cash wall. Very uncool. 

23 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I own German translations of the red and light blue Moldvay boxes, but never played those. In the mid eighties northern Germany, playing the Moldvay boxes was akin to playing DSA (the first and second editions, nowadays The Dark Eye), and not that well regarded by the D&D and convention grognards from the late seventies.

Were these in the rules, or did they appear in scenarios?

They were in the 'Three Little Books' of OD&D. Basically the first boxed version of D&D, pre-Advanced D&D. Eventually Hobbits were revised to Halflings and Balrogs became Balors, but it was originally in the first edition. 

I grew up playing a mix of B/X and Advanced, not really understanding how different they were and loving it anyway. Childish enthusiasm I suppose. I still prefer B/X style retroclones to ones based on AD&D. 

23 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Not published as the complete setting, but plenty high quality locales. Check out https://www.rpg.net/columns/designers-and-dragons/designers-and-dragons13.phtml

The setting of the Riftwar era could be reverse engineered from a combination of those products and the novels by Feist. There is a wiki: https://midkemia.fandom.com/wiki/Midkemia_Wiki

 

To be honest, I never played either. The only such game other than rogue-like ASCII questing (mainly Nethack) that I ever played a tíny bit was Betrayal at Krondor on someone else's computer (still was using my Atari ST at the time). I did play the original Warcraft.

It's one of the great things about Elder Scrolls games (at least past Arena). The game developed a 'get better as you use it' model and one where anyone could learn any skill.