Applying Passion Modifiers to STAT rolls

[Craiger]

Hey Everyone!

Not sure if I'm posting this in the right place, as this is my first appearance on this site (was a fairly avid follower on the old Nocturnal forum.)

I'm reading the description for Inspirations from Passions, and I notice it says it may be applied to any skill or combat skill. My question is, why not STATS? My thinking is, if a knight can be inspired to greatness beyond his normal skill with a sword, or instrument, horsemanship, ect, why can't the same inspiration help him run faster (DEX) or moved to some great feat of strength? I can see the reasoning behind APP and SIZ, of course, and I suppose you could probably make an argument for CON, but I would also say that inspiration can help a knight dig down deep to keep going if he has to make a CON roll. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? Feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Edited April 17, 2019 by Craiger

[Morien]

I actually thought that was already part of the rules! I could swear that we talked about things like this on the Nocturnal Forum, and even using Passions to boost Traits, like using your Amor to boost your Chaste when another lady tries to tempt you.

[Craiger]

It's possible that it is. I'm referencing a hard copy of KAP 5.1. Incidentally, the whole reason I even know about this site is bc I tried to get onto Nocurnal to see if I could find anything about it, and Hzark (who I play in a game with) mentioned this site. I'm having some de sha vu about this, but can't remember what the outcome was.

Is it possible to still view anything from the old forum, or is it all gone?

Edited April 17, 2019 by Craiger

[Morien]

34 minutes ago, Craiger said:

Is it possible to still view anything from the old forum, or is it all gone?

I think Chaosium has it, and they are trying to make it available as an archive at some point...

Here we go:

 

[Craiger]

Thanks Morien. Glad everyone is still around. You guys have always been a great resource to lean on!

[Hzark10]

I also thought we had agreed that Passions can affect STATS and Traits

[Atgxtg]

17 hours ago, Craiger said:

I'm reading the description for Inspirations from Passions, and I notice it says it may be applied to any skill or combat skill. My question is, why not STATS? 

Well the only official reason is the wording in the rulebook. That said, there are some examples in previous editions where the inspiration modifier was applied to attributes, such as the Berserk using it to boost his SIZ. So I think most of us would allow it.

[Hzark10]

16 hours ago, Craiger said:

Thanks Morien. Glad everyone is still around. You guys have always been a great resource to lean on!

Yup, we are now here. Glad to see you make it over.

[Cornelius]

This is how I would use it:

I would allow the bonus to apply to STATS if they are used as a sort of skill. Thus a STR would be allowed if you have to bash your way through several doors to get to your love or run a 10 mile stretch to save her. But as with all inspiration it requires some sort of logical sense. 

For instance I would not want it 'abused' in the following example: A PK has a skill 25+ and thus always increaes his size to do more damage as he reasons he will hit his opponent anyway. 

BTW In my games to get inspired something must have happened that triggers your passion. You may hate Saxons, but that does not mean you get inspired everytime you see a Saxon. Only when for instance you are outnumbered and may loose or when a friend goes down you can get inspired.

[Tizun Thane]

In my games, i authorize the inspiration for trait (love (lady) to resist temptation for exemple) and Stats as well.

No game breaker. No big deal.

[Khanwulf]

@Hzark10 in another thread you permit Traits and Passions to inspire. As in, be the source stat for checking if inspiration occurs, yes? 

That's... different, since Passions are normally the only source of inspiration. 

Now applying the bonus: that's less of a significant choice. But how have you found sourcing inspiration to go in playing using a trait-based approach? (Assuming I understand correctly.)

 

--Khanwulf

[Atgxtg]

33 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

@Hzark10 in another thread you permit Traits and Passions to inspire. As in, be the source stat for checking if inspiration occurs, yes? 

That's... different, since Passions are normally the only source of inspiration. 

There are a couple of documented exceptions though. In the Adventure of the Perilous Chapel PKs can use Spiritual to get divine aid after a fashion, and there are a few other spiritual type encounters that do something similar. 

 

33 minutes ago, Khanwulf said:

Now applying the bonus: that's less of a significant choice. But how have you found sourcing inspiration to go in playing using a trait-based approach? (Assuming I understand correctly.)

I'm curious as to the frequency, limits and how that fits with passion based inspiration? For instance can a character use a trait and a passion to inspire the same ability? Or could the use a trait to inspire a passion which turn is used to inspire something else? For example someone with Proud 18, Honor 15 is called a coward and fights a duel to save his Honor. He uses his Pride 18 to inspire his Honor (up to 20) ensuring that he can't blow the passion roll (and go mad) and that he can then use his Honor to Inspire his Sword skill. It makes sense logically, but I'm not sure if it would be a good idea.

 

 

[Hzark10]

3 hours ago, Khanwulf said:

@Hzark10 in another thread you permit Traits and Passions to inspire. As in, be the source stat for checking if inspiration occurs, yes? 

That's... different, since Passions are normally the only source of inspiration. 

Yes.  I will, under proper instances as Atgxtg mentions, that Traits also can be used to inspire yourself.  A notably chaste knight, without any love for anyone to counter with, can try to withstand advances solely based on his chaste score. I usually tie it into roleplaying as well.  If it brings me into YPMV, so be it, but my players did not object and felt it was both reasonable and faithful to the stories.

[Khanwulf]

5 hours ago, Hzark10 said:

Yes.  I will, under proper instances as Atgxtg mentions, that Traits also can be used to inspire yourself.  A notably chaste knight, without any love for anyone to counter with, can try to withstand advances solely based on his chaste score. I usually tie it into roleplaying as well.  If it brings me into YPMV, so be it, but my players did not object and felt it was both reasonable and faithful to the stories.

Ok, however which characteristic is the target for that chaste inspiration? I mean you're not rolling chaste for the PJ's action choice, but to inspire something else?

Just curious how it's worked as I once inadvertently did something similar with a directed list trait... Before rereading on it.

[Cornelius]

16 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I'm curious as to the frequency, limits and how that fits with passion based inspiration? For instance can a character use a trait and a passion to inspire the same ability? Or could the use a trait to inspire a passion which turn is used to inspire something else? For example someone with Proud 18, Honor 15 is called a coward and fights a duel to save his Honor. He uses his Pride 18 to inspire his Honor (up to 20) ensuring that he can't blow the passion roll (and go mad) and that he can then use his Honor to Inspire his Sword skill. It makes sense logically, but I'm not sure if it would be a good idea.

I would not allow this. Only one roll to get inspired. It is either his Proud or his Honor that should be used, not one to get inspired on the other. IMHO This example would break open a can of worms. And where would it stop? Could I reason that I get inspired from my Love(|family)  so I can inspire myself for my Proud to inspire myself for My Honor to get a bonus on my sword? There are probably more discussion about the logic of the choices which I do not want.

I would let the player explain the reaction of the PK and then decide wich trait or passion would be used to get inspired.

[Hzark10]

8 hours ago, Khanwulf said:

Ok, however which characteristic is the target for that chaste inspiration? I mean you're not rolling chaste for the PJ's action choice, but to inspire something else?

Just curious how it's worked as I once inadvertently did something similar with a directed list trait... Before rereading on it.

I done it both ways, now that I understand your gist.  

In the first case, yes, it is usually a successful Passion that gets you to be inspired in a Trait, or attribute. However, I have used a trait itself when that PK had a ultimate value to remain true to his vow of chastity (he made it when it was not required by the church or another person).

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, Cornelius said:

I would not allow this. Only one roll to get inspired. It is either his Proud or his Honor that should be used, not one to get inspired on the other. IMHO This example would break open a can of worms. And where would it stop?

That's what I think, and was worried about. I don't think inspiration from traits is a good idea, as it will minimize the benefits of passions, but I could see how a traits might help in some cases, and could consider letting a PK average his trait with his passion (or applying trait>15 to his passion) under certain circumstances. I have occasionally allowed a character to add a skill to a attribute for certain roll (i.e. CON+Boating to avoiding becoming seasick).

[Hzark10]

23 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

For example someone with Proud 18, Honor 15 is called a coward and fights a duel to save his Honor.

 

6 hours ago, Cornelius said:

I would not allow this. Only one roll to get inspired. It is either his Proud or his Honor that should be used, not one to get inspired on the other.

 

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

I don't think inspiration from traits is a good idea, as it will minimize the benefits of passions, but I could see how a traits might help in some cases,

Believe it or not, I agree with both Cornelius and Atgxtg.  You cannot use one inspiration roll and then use the target of that inspiration to inspire something else. One or the other. I do allow inspiraiton to affect traits and attributes, depending on the situation, but have on occasion used just a trait.  It is rare, and when I ruled it as such, the players understood and accepted it without complaint. Of course, my game is a little higher powered than some.

[Atgxtg]

Just now, Hzark10 said:

Believe it or not, I agree with both Cornelius and Atgxtg.  You cannot use one inspiration roll and then use the target of that inspiration to inspire something else. One or the other. I do allow inspiraiton to affect traits and attributes, depending on the situation, but have on occasion used just a trait.  It is rare, and when I ruled it as such, the players understood and accepted it without complaint. Of course, my game is a little higher powered than some.

We may be crossing wires here. I have no problem with using a passion to bump up a trait or attribute. I'm more concerned with using a trait for inspiration on something else, partly because it makes traits much better than passions, or someone stacking modifiers to either get a bigger boost or to improve his chances of making an inspiration roll. 

 

But something like a knight using his Loyalty (Lord) to boost his CON so that he can remain conscious and fighting at his liege lord side during a battle? Sure!

[Hzark10]

You got it.