svensson

OK, let's all just accept that DnD is the elephant in the room, but it isn't the only game with fireballs and such. Most fantasy games roll with the tropes that DnD pioneered... the '4 food groups' of party composition [tank, blaster, healer, skill monkey /stealth] for just one example. Games as different as L5R and WHFRPG use them and that's what the gamer public has come to expect.

YMEMV, indeed. In the case of the White Council [which was made up of literally the wisest and most knowledgeable people available] discussing the Necromancer of Dol Guldur, I think there was also an attitude of denial to their discussions. By the time the White Council began to discuss the Necromancer Arnor had long since fallen, Gondor was a shadow of its former self [its King dead, the Numenorean blood running increasingly thin, beset on every front by enemies and no help to be had], Khazad-Dum was gone and the six other Dwarf Kindreds scattered. The Last Alliance of Elves and Men had defeated a fully capable Sauron only by the skin of their teeth, and every one of the players in those battles were much less than they were. They didn't want to believe that Sauron was back, given how far the Free Peoples had fallen since the Last Alliance. And Saruman, held to be the wisest of them, deliberately misdirected them. Only Gandalf had the courage to try and investigate and see the real threat.

Well, I'll happily give you that 'ChartMaster' was a lousy system to work with. Even the various watered down versions were cumbersome. I think, however, that many of the starting character magic items might be considered Fine to Exceptional quality normal weapons, 'masterwork' if you will, rather than actual Magic Items on par with Sting or Glamdring. Even the Numenorean daggers that Merry, Pippin, and Sam got after Aragorn rescued them from the Barrow Wight had some extra 'oomph' to them compared to the local but perfectly serviceable manufacture. As to spells themselves, you illustrate my points. While some beings who are absolutely dedicated to destruction but who are not born within Ea [Elves, Dwarves, even the Ringwraiths] might be able to cast direct damage spells, pretty much no other beings can.

A question for the Hive Mind... How would you present RQ magics to someone who's only known the fantasy tropes? Disruption can take the place of Magic Missile, for example, especially when you explain just how much deadlier the spell is in a world without 150 hit point uber-Gawdz running around. But how would you assemble a 'Wizard' [aka unarmored professional academic spellcaster] for an RQ campaign for someone whose only experience is DnD? Or is this a question best left until the Sorcery Sourcebook [tm, pat. pend.] comes out?

Well, just like with RQ, we have multiple interpretations to work with. We have the core books and appendices as hard, fast Canon, we have the various interpretations from games, the LOTRO game etc. But for sake of this discussion we'll keep it to JRRT's work. Several races craft magic items... Elves, Dwarves, the Dunedain and their successors are all capable of it. All three seem to be capable of ritual magics like divination and concealment /illusions. As to the Necromancer, that was Sauron and he is of the same class and power as the Istari [Gandalf, Saruman, and company]. All of them are Maiar, lesser spirits present at Creation who are in service to greater spirits, the Valar. The Valar hold roles similar to gods and goddesses, while the great[est] being is Eru, the One, the source of the spark of creation. Eru is not worshiped much, at least not directly. Only the Numenoreans are mentioned in worshiping him by name and even then it was only the Crown who did so once a year. But all this does not fit into the spell-slinging tropes of the classic DnD or RQ game.

1. Dirt on the players. Do any players have a dark secret? Have any of them profited from their service in an unlawful way? Have any of them said anything disloyal about their lord? In both KAP and in Sengoku era Japan, there are two constants that are always present: servants are invisible and servants want money. It's easy to bribe the server girl at the local sake house or the ashigaru who takes care of the horses to find out all kinds of ugly things about player characters unless they've been very careful. As the old Japanese saying goes, there is only one safe place for a secret... the grave. 2. The Shinano situation. The players are sent to aid one of their ally's castles. They are at the castle delivering assistance [be that rice, gunpowder or whatever] and they are specifically sent to reassure the ally that Sugura is behind him. As high-ranking officers of Sugura, it is also intended to send a message to Takeda... 'this is the line in the sand'. Unfortunately, Takeda has gotten to the castle lord first. This lord decides that he has seen which way the wind is blowing and doesn't want to be around when Takeda Shingen starts taking heads. Shingen is well known for his mercilessness versus those who resist him, after all. This lord decides to switch sides while the players are present, with the takeover happening in the middle of the night. Can the players escape the trap with no preparation? Alternatively, the castle lord is still on the fence when Takeda's forces arrive. Can the players keep the lord from falling to pieces and switching sides out of fear long enough for the castle to hold out?

I've been interested in this kind of thing as well. One problem with getting gamers interested in new campaigns is the learning curve that gives the players the info to make informed decisions. Games like RQ or Traveller have deep backgrounds that don't always appeal to the 'ooh! I saw that movie!' generation. LOTR is a *dandy* way to get around that and MERP had some of the absolute best off-canon writing I've ever seen for licensed game product. But it does bring up a question... Magic is LOTR is both pervasive and very, very subtle. Very few fireballs are flung about and there are only 5 'wizards'... and even they are actually demi-gods given mortal form. So how do you folks see magic in Middle Earth in a BRP format?

You make good points there. However, I would also say that a Chief or Ring that makes decisions based solely on political expediency would probably suffer magically too, especially in the ring roles that are not specifically cult or role related. Ginna Jar is nebulous, even her role during the Lightbringer Quest is not really defined. She doesn't have specific mythic deeds attributed to her and is not worshiped as a Goddess by herself the way that, say, Chalanna Arroy is. So if a clan appoints a politically safe person to the seat, worrying more about the their power in the ring instead of the good of the clan as a whole, then the clan's luck and magic would likewise suffer.

I don't know of anything that says they can't be. In matters of spirits there are very few absolutes in Glorantha. However, it would be very rare for a wyter to have a personality such that it actually had a name. Most of the time, it would be a new clan with direct memory of the actual person [in the anthropological sense... as in, 'my grandfather's spirit has chosen to stay with us as the clan wyter'].

Quick follow up. Yes the clan wyter can be asked question and it can give answers, but only in a nebulous way. Since it doesn't have a personality, it doesn't have opinions. Its answers are based on how the clan has handled the question over the clan's lifetime. This is great for questions of run-of-the-mill importance, but the wyter is the wrong being to ask when something outside the clan's traditions and experiences needs addressing. So in this specific question... A Balanced clan who worships Orlanth as their main god [pretty much the KODP game vanilla clan] has two equally respected people who could fill the vacant Ginna Jar seat on the Clan Ring. Because the ring is missing a member, there is a hung vote in the ring for who should take that seat. The decision is made to ask the wyter who would best fill the role. The Ring gathers the clan and reverently removes the wyter totem from its niche in the Orlanth temple. Two sticks are driven into the ground before the wyter totem and scarf or kerchief from each candidate is laid atop one stick each. The clan Lawspeaker then beseeches the wyter to express which candidate would best fill the role for the benefit of the clan. A stiff breeze picks up [Orlanth reference there] and each scarf flies off its respective stick, but one scarf sails off into the air while one flutters to the base of the wyter totem. The candidate whose scarf the wyter 'selected' becomes the Ginna Jar seat holder.

As argumentative as Orlanthi are, the last thing you want in a council is a tie vote! As to the 'why not just use the wyter' question, the wyter is not an ancestor-type spirit. It doesn't speak directly to petitioners. It doesn't have a personality or a voice. A wyter is a spirit of the clan's collective wisdom and experience, not the ancestor spirits of the clan founders. Those are separate beings which can be contacted with the right rituals and a skilled shaman. Not all clans have a shaman that knows those rituals. But the wyter is contacted through worship of the clan's main deity and reverence for 'those who came before us'.

Is it really bad to scroll through that list and note how many of those titles I have in Dead Tree [tm] format? Nope.

Presuming heredity works the same way in Glorantha as is does on Earth, that would be one seriously inbred clan! It must be really tough to be a war clan full of hemophiliacs... Ok, seriously, most clans rely on adoptions, marriages, fosterage and so on to mix up the gene pool. Instead of the clan ancestor spirits, it seems to me that the best way to select the Ginna Jar [if the clan can't do it by itself] is to ask the clan wyter instead.

The 'head of household' can be many things. In a traditional rural Orlanthi clan, I would think that would be the steading holder. In a more urban area, that might mean 'household' as we would define it on Earth, i.e, the head person of all those who live within a single family home.. Do they rotate places on the Clan Ring? My inclination is 'no'. Once a person is selected for the Ring, the serve until they quit, retire or die.

Absolutely, though the clan may not entirely appreciate a trickster in the Ginna Jar seat given the vagaries of Luck and a trickster's conduct. The Ginna Jar seat is supposed to represent clan traditions, wisdom and leadership through good counsel [whatever 'good counsel' means to that clan]. Since the Eurmal already has a seat within Orlanth's Ring, the clan may wish a more common person at that seat to represent cottars and carls rather than the troublemakers. Of course, none of this prevents a Eurmali from holding the seat. Tricksters have a habit of filling in the odd roles of society that others cannot fill.

And isn't likely to start any feuds either

But Arkat apotheosized as a hero of Humakt, not a separate deity in and of himself. The same with both the Seven Mothers and Sartar. The Mothers were raised up by the will and power of Sedendya /Red Goddess, but not by their own deeds. The same could be said about Sartar as a personal wyter of the nation he founded, raised up by the will of Orlanth Rex. Dormal, on the other hand, Quested on his own dime, so to speak. He journeyed to the Three-Step Isles, then proceeded to break the Syndics Ban around world before plunging into Magasta's Pool and arriving in the Celestial Heavens as god without the sponsorship of a pantheon or deity. This makes Dormal pretty unique.

Okay, I'm taking my examples here from both the KODP game and the Riskland Campaign in the Dorastor book for RQ3. As with every 'theo- philo- sophical' discussion on this board, your mileage will vary. As I understand it, Ginna Jar represents the 'spirit of the people': the collective wisdom of the clan wyter, the lessons and experiences of the 'quest' that keeping and holding the clan lands has given the whole. So if a steadholder is on the Clan Ring as representitive of Ginn Jar, they are usually someone of uncommon perception and wisdom. They'd be a person of thoughtfulness and experience with a well-run steading and a healthy family. They wouldn't necessarily have to an elder, but they'd have to be widely respected. For one fantasy example, a Samwise Gamgee type as portrayed in the epilogue chapters of LOTR. He's seen and done some pretty big things, but his principal cares are his family, his community, and the land. As to who specifically that would be really depends on the nature of the clan and its needs. A basic guide is who the clan worships as their main deity, and the influence of the other Lightbringers. Is the clan strong with Issaries? Then someone who can negotiate well without making insult for feud may be selected. A War clan might have a thane, or at minimum a battle-tested fryrd-warrior, in that role. In a patriarchal farming clan, it might be a well-thought-of Barntar initiate who works hand in hand with the Ernalda priestesses. Any of that making sense?

Juuust gonna leave this here....

Just gonna go with 'ick!' and leave it at that...

Well, to be fair, it can be fairly held that Dormal's Quest of Opening was the first HeroQuest of the Hero Wars. He was a mortal man who Quested to Open the Syndic's Ban and then ascended to Godhood within the bounds of Time, and only the second mortal to do so [Sedenya ascending to the Red Goddess being first]. As I understand it, Arkat may or may not count, as he is an ascended Hero but is only worshiped as a Hero in Humakt and Kyger Litor, not as a God in and of himself. As to casting Open Seas, yes, Jeff has stated clearly that the caster must be attuned to the Water Rune [it must be greater than 50%] in order to cast the spell.

Probably there or the GoG text supporting it.

Presumably they're still getting spells and not being visited by Spirits of Reprisal [of which Orlanth as more than his fair share], so they must be doing something right

But aren't Aeolians considered heretics by True Orlanthi? For some reason I believe that to be true but it beats me where I got it.

I know. I wanted to put together a Lunar thief just to do something different. The idea was that he'd be the team skill-monkey, lock-picker, and all round Doer of Very Bad Things. Had a hell of a time with it. I didn't like the idea of just filing off the name of Eurmal, couldn't find an appropriate Lunar cult, and was trying to stay away from Sorcery until some further guidance was available.