davecake

Oh, for the occasional adventure who didn’t get Ride in their previous experience and suddenly decides they need to do some mounted adventuring, it might have some value. But even then it’s marginal, and it’s value to a whole society seems very marginal indeed. Sometimes it might be useful to get a few farmers or whatever to respond to bandits or something, but it mostly is a poor substitute for trained light cavalry.

This is a very useful suggestion, that makes Kuschile archery more useful, especially on a military scale, without radically changing anything. Another possible rule change would be to say that your archery skill is limited to your Ride + Kuschile skill? So the Kuschile archery skill is both much more useful (for most poor riders that’s a big boost, compared to the fairly marginal skill advantage from the RAW), but there are still reasons to increase the skill for many (if you are an experienced archer like a hunter, but a new rider, it’s very possible your Bow skill is more than 25% higher than your Ride), and it’s not overpowering, just useful. Even with both of these ideas in play the skill still has no utility to good riders, though, and real light cavalry requires riding skill, not just mounted archery - which means Yelmalio is back the point to joining the cult where joining the Yelmalio cult is generally a net negative for light cavalry like the Impala tribe - the Kuschile skill offers nothing for good riders, and the cult offers no real archery magic, not even spirit magic (the closest it gets is Farsee), and deprives them of even the possible use of one of the most useful spells for them, FireArrow. Even Lightwall isn’t very useful - it’s valuable for infantry as a screen against enemy ranged attacks, but moves too slowly (and even then, is an active spell which makes it very restrictive on actions) to be very useful for cavalry. Sunbright probably (it’s not clear) isn’t useful against attackers from outside the radius of its light, making it of limited value to cavalry as well. So we are left with the question of why would an Impala brave want to join Yelmalio? It makes them a marginally worse warrior than if they had simply remained a Waha warrior, offering no general benefits at all, and even the Gifts of Yelmalio are mostly of fairly limited value.

Mounted nomads don’t need it - their Ride skill is already very high. Pentans and Praxians virtually live in the saddle - and so the skill as written is of minimal utility to them. What it does is magically (it requires cult membership and a geas, it’s not a fully mundane skill) guides farmers to have some of the abilities of their mounted (spiritual) ancestors.

That’s a roundabout way of justifying that it’s a mistake. This contradicts Pg 366, ‘The binder of a spirit can use any spirit magic the spirit possesses and the magic points of the spirit to fuel spells. ’

I’m not quite sure how the Pentans conceptualise the difference - if Yu-Kargzant is Imperial Kargzant, is that Kargzant as Emperor, or the Emperor acknowledged by Kargzant, or are both names titles to the Pentans (like Rider, and Lord of Riders?). But yes, different entities. Though do some non-Pure Pentan tribes have a Yu-Kargzant minority?

I recommend you reread the skill. Jeff. “Successful use of the skill allows…” Yes, Kuschile archery allows normal archery skill from horseback - IF you successfully use the Kuschile ability. Which admittedly starts reasonably high for a starting skill, at 25%+, but it doesn’t start at 100%. if it just let you use your archery skill at full value, it wouldn’t be a skill, just an ability. Which given it is magical (requires a geas) wouldn’t necessarily be bad. (Admittedly, I’m taking the most natural reading, which is the cumbersome roll for every shot, but if it’s roll every battle, it’s still not 100%, and requires something added to the skill description) My comment about horse archers not being the same as Light Cavalry remains true. Light cav tactics like the Parthian shot/ wheel and turn require good riding, hell just staying on at a gallop without using your arms, or staying in something resembling a coherent formation.

RAW. it allows relatively poor horsemen to be mediocre mounted archers. If you fail your skill roll it confers no advantage, and most of the time you fail your skill roll. And mounted archers are not the same as light cavalry - which really does require you to be a good rider.

I think Talor was an Illuminate/mystic - but yes, something only taught from the sorcerer level up. Like Arkat he sees the value of Illumination, but believes that without a prolonged process of testing and preparation it is dangerous.

And they are among the various units of the SMU described in the Glorantha Sourcebook. We know their origin story, the form of their wyter, etc.

Well, no, as the Snakepipe Dancers are a warlock group who use draconic methods acquired by using the Snakepipe to get secrets from a dragon, not a chaos fighting Earth cult. And in my game, as I said, Baroshi is explicitly one of the spirits from Orlanths ring wielded by the Eleven Lights, a different unit to the Snakepipe Dancers. He is one of the three dead gods that may be chosen to resurrect in the Eleven Lights quest, and they chose him. And [spoilers] acquiring the Snakepipe requires desecrating the grave of Bakoshi’s father. Baroshi is unlikely to be fond of the founder of the Snakepipe Dancers (Argrath). It will be fun when my PCs (who are re-establishing Baroshi’s cult) experience that particular act of Argraths.

I’ve only seen a draft version of the Gods book, and material has certainly been added to it since then. But the one I saw had only had Illumination within the Nysalor cult in any detail.

I also think that the Holy Country has room for more than one prominent troll who deals with the outside world notably. While Xoroho’s influence will fall as she seems to be allied with Hendira, and Obash’s will rise with Broyan (I would guess that Obash is related to why Broyan first hides out in the Shadow Plateau after the fall of Whitewall), I think the two of them remain just the two most prominent of many significant trolls in the greater Holy Country, and I think Xoroho is busy both with and without the Shadow Plateau, especially as a prominent leader of the Argan Argar cult, which of course still is very active outside the Shadow Plateau, as well as within it. I’m interested in filling out the cast of players for high politics in the Holy Country in the post-Belintar era - no reason to assume that there is a one-in, one-out rule in effect! Suggestion for other notable figures welcome.

Very close. As Nick says, not every Illuminate receives every ability, and there are a few extra abilities, including being able to overcome the Illuminates own Passions, and Opposed runes are no longer treated as opposed, so eg they may increase both Life and Death runes (really quite handy for Seven Mothers cultists). This was also the case in HeroQuest Glorantha. It’s also explicit (as it was in HeroQuest Glorantha) that other mystical experiences, such as draconic mysticism, are essentially the same as Illumination in most respects (though not 100% identical, as the abilities taught may vary - eg only Nysalor Riddlers learn Nysalor Riddles).

In rules terms, she receives worship as an associated cult, and every Lunar cult is associated with her.

If your players want a Chaos fighting Earth cult, they should go into Snakepipe Hollow and awaken Baroshi, then build up his cult. Ideally after bringing Baroshi back to life by heroquesting in the Eleven Lights heroquest. Well, that’s what my players are doing, anyway.

Not quite never. When weapon arm is injured or weapon is dropped due to fumble or disarm. A Berserk is likely to attack with their shield - sure, a second weapon would do more damage, but it’s likely at a small percentage, while shield is high, and a shield is still a bit useful to a Berserk for passive defense while charging etc. But not as much as you’d see fighters doing this. An argument could be made, though, that shield bashes are not really designed to injure most of the time, but to stagger the opponent enough for the real blow to land, and it’s just part of a shield fighting style but the blow that counts comes from the other weapon? It would be very hard to inflict real damage with the flat of a shield, it’s so spread out (oddities like spiked shield bosses notwithstanding), and hard to strike with the edge of a shield consistently without reducing its effectiveness as a shield.

I give major enemies DI, especially enemy Rune Lords with 1D10 DI who have effectively a 100% chance - but usually to take them out of the fight, it’s a way of acknowledging PC victory without removing them as a long term NPC. But I don’t roll DI for initiate NPCs generally. I might roll it where success might have a particularly nice dramatic resolution, or where it has unusual and specific effects.

You should definitely check out Mythras, and see what of its rules you find useful for your game, as that is a core part of its rules. I actually think adopting that idea, but sticking with RQG rules otherwise, probably gets you a better game than either, if a more complex one than RQG. The RQG rules had, more or less, a design goal of keeping combat relatively simple (at least, not more complex than RQ2), but adding the excitement to the game through far more common use of powerful magic, with rune magic being far more accessible and flexible. I think they’ve succeeded, and I think it is a good call - so much of the coolness of RQ, both for action and for world building, is in Rune magic, and widening that up is great, I think that is a near universally positive feeling about RQG and overall the right call. And much as some very specific choices annoy me, others I think are great. So I think there are two strategies in game design there, and the RQG one is ‘lean into the magic’. And you can definitely see that in Jeff’s own GMing style - he loves the magic and mythic side of things, and generally really leans into empowering his players to thinking that way, even when their ideas may not be reflected in the rules. Challenge the spirit to a dance off? Sure! But I think adding more complexity to the core combat rules is unlikely to be something that Chaosium officially are going to lean into (though there is plenty of complexity around the edges, with things like specialised rules for chariot fighting). But that’s what house rules are for, right? In his writing for the GUMSHOE system, Ken Hite has the idea of a Zoom - a bunch of rules for a specific topic, that aren’t intended to expand the core rules, but to be used when your campaign has enough of a focus on a specific topic (either due to your campaign theme, or your players interest) that you want more rules for it. I kind of like the same idea for RQ myself, though RQ/BRP is far more gritty and less modular than GUMSHOE. If your game has one guy who fights as an unarmed martial artist, you don’t need rules beyond making him effective at it. But if your game has 4 of them, or is closely based on wuxia themes, you want more rules, so that styles and tactics matter. Similarly, if your players really are not that focussed on combat detail, stick with RQG and emphasize magic and passion as where the excitement is. If half your group are ancient warfare buffs, recreationists, martial artists, etc you might want to add some house rules for things like closing, different results for specials, etc.

An observation - much of this thread (though not all) seems to be heading in the vague direction of rules more like Mythras, particularly the emphasis on closing and maneuvering. I think the discussions of how would you change the rules differently from the start, and house rules that can be added to RQG without requiring significant change eg to statistics and character creation, but that improve the realism of RQG combat for those that want it, are different discussions. Arguably only one of those discussions belongs in this forum, though I think this thread straddles both and is still at a more general level.

I don’t really understand this. Could you explain a little? A dagger thrust with a real fighting weapon is absolutely capable of stabbing through to the heart, and thus both disabling someone and very quickly killing them. Sure, not every blow is going to manage going straight through the rib cage etc - but it’s certainly something that the weapon is capable of. And it is really not that hard for a head blow to be both disabling (up to unconsciousness) and potentially lethal, when inflicted with something hard (and even unarmed brawls are dangerous, especially if they cause someone to fall hard onto a hard surface). I do think the RQ rule of instant death through general hit point loss is unrealistic though - people who are unconscious and who have a potentially lethal injury can survive a surprisingly long time, and often survive terrible injuries if got to a modern emergency department, especially with even minimal first aid - and let’s assume Heal Body is pretty much as good.

RQG is one of the few games that represents the difference between individual combat and massed warfare at all, and only in a piecemeal way - really, it just has shield wall (and special case phalangite) rules. But at least it does so! Kung fu, and many other martial arts, is generally taught as more or less a ‘street fight’ technique with some military weapons taught as advanced techniques. Which actually works pretty well for a lot of adventuring uses, but badly for military ones. To some extent that might not be historical - but quite a bit it seems intrinsic, like many Kung fu styles putting a heavy emphasis on independent movement, and so being quite unsuited to close formation. You also see in several martial arts styles (eg karate, capoeira) the use of unarmed styles matched with using tools as weapons showing origins as a style used for underground resistance to military forces. Which is cool, but sits oddly with putting it into more general gaming contexts.

And I’d add one more category - paired swords (or paired anything really). The RQ way of treating fighting with an off hand weapon as two entirely unrelated weapon skills seems entirely unlike the way traditions of two weapon use, whether it is paired weapons like Kung fu ‘butterfly’ swords, or rapier and main gauche, are actually taught. Goes for paired stick fighting as well.

Swords are also special in RQ for religious reasons. The distinction between curved and straight swords is not just about the details of how you attack with them, but the distinction is important for several cults. Hence the RQG obsession with the kopis - which isn’t a historical kopis, too long, which also brings us back to the short sword vs broadsword issue.

I find the idea that only short spears can be used 1H, or thrown, to be quite odd for a game that is supposed to cover a broad range of cultures. Australian indigenous hunters used spears around 2.7 m for hunting, and could be thrown a good distance - and were accurate at a huge distance with a woomera (much the same as an atl-atl). Plus the spears we know were used 1H by hoplites would be longer than an RQ short spear - a doru was about 2-3m long, wielded 1handed, and could be thrown.

Yes, BG is very versatile, more so than any other fighting cult I think. Axe Trance is great with 2H axe. You can also parry with the boosted axe. It’s a very potent tactic as long as your opponents are engageable in melee combat. Earth Shield with 1H axe is a very potent defensive combination. BGs probably are more able to take on very high damage opponents like ZZers than Humakt is (though Orlanth has an edge here, he loses on weapon enhancement magic). The Axe can be boosted with Slash if needed. And it doesn’t restrict other combat options at all, so still has the full range of magic etc available, which makes it more flexible and able to deal with the unexpected, as well as do things like cast Demoralise. And Berserk is great. Unless outnumbered, often the Berserk will take out their opponent before they have to take a hit themselves. It’s a really good idea to cast Shield before berserking though! And also works great with Shield. Though in practice, only real specialists will go for the dual axe option - the majority will not have a very high off hand axe skill, as it takes a lot of effort to raise it, normally is not likely to be gained at character creation, and a low base chance. It alsohas the normal dual wielder issue of not being the best defensive option. So only someone that really wants to be a nasty Berserk and concentrate on savage attacks, at the expense of survivability, is likely to for it. Under RQG, most are likely to find that the already high skill with a shield makes it the most attractive option, despite the lower damage. And it gives us shield-chewing berserks, in the best viking tradition. True Sword is better than Slash point for point, but Slash seems a better spell to have due to its stackability. And yeah, BG has great healing too. BG is probably the best fighting cult, and easily the most flexible. I’ve never found the lack of Sever Spirit a huge problem, though - so often adventurers die in circumstances that wouldn’t allow for it anyway. Like the ZZ Death Lord kills them, then eats them. ZZ is a good fighting cult, but lacks defensive options. It only becomes truly terrifying because its followers tend to be huge trolls. And to hang around in military gangs with zombies etc. But they do have good options for offensive magic (Fear, elementals). Crush vs Slash is a bit of an even comparison, but Crush is better for a typical ZZer who is already doing a heap of damage. A Berserk ZZer often has plenty of hit points and is hard to quickly take down, so even scarier than BG berserks. Their big trump card though is the combination of Seal Wound and heaps of damage. Often Rune level fighters heavily rely on healing during combat. Zz isn’t the most flexible cult, but makes for very dangerous opponents for Humakt (who needs a lot of defences to counter the huge damage a big troll with Crush etc can dish out that might blow through a parry) or BG (Earth Shield is great, but Berserk plus Blugeon and Crush can make for a very high attack % that is hard to parry, and Seal Wound sure counters their healing advantage). Orlanth has great survivability due to Woad, Earth Shield, etc and a lot of ways to get out of trouble fast (or close with ranged opponents), and powerful offensive magic, but lacks much damage enhancement. Their real trump card is a friendly Ernalda with Bless Champion though. Storm Bull is a bit of a one trick pony. Berserk is pretty much their one great tactic. Unless they are fighting Chaos, of course. Kaargs Sons are a bit like ZZ - the most scary thing about them is they are big trolls - but just don’t match up for combat magic. But you don’t want to mess with their mothers. I haven’t really looked at cults like Wachaza (Fang of Wachaza is an amazing spell, but very expensive, and needs to get through armour to work), or Shargash in as much detail, but I don’t think any really match up to Humakt, BG and ZZ as the big three contenders for most frighteningly effective warrior cult.