davecake

I would have said all three of those are caste deities of Men Of All or talars, not horals. And Arkat not accepted among the Seshnegi at all. The caste deity, if not Horal himself, likely Humakt or other warrior gods. Through these gods they are granted their weapons and weapon magic (in ancient Malkioni myth) - but they do not serve them, so I think they practice only cut down, limited versions of those cults. They must always put their talar above their god, or they break caste law. That said, it’s not as if Rokari horali are likely to be Resurrected, or be asked to fight alongside undead, anyway, right? But still, most stick to their beast societies, who make less awkward demands.

We already know that lineage lists are very important to the talars at least, and conceptually to the zzaburi. Several major ‘sacred’ or magical books of the Malkioni are basically big lineage lists, with the ancestry of ‘gods’ and other magical being intermingling with the lineages of houses of the nobility - and the noble houses carefully maintain these lineages in their own records. Of course this has become different in the modern era for other castes - zzabur are no longer within their birth caste (but still obsess over the lineages of magical entities), horali may have come originally from non-Malkioni people, dronars may not even have long term family records. But I think obsessively caring about lineages (that usually link to legendary/ divine beings) and recording them in books is still a trait of the Malkioni upper classes almost everywhere. Of course the Orlanthi do this too, but it’s usually much more an oral tradition, and they seem much more flexible about it - a persons deeds can always over rule their lineage.

I admit my understanding of how Rokari society functions is a lot of almost universally understood and tolerated hypocrisy. Everyone knows that their own caste has many members who push the boundaries of what should be accepted, but forgives their own transgressions. Everyone knows they other castes go beyond what should be accepted (in various ways - the zzaburi generally keep to the magical rules, but I think other castes think they usurp the role of talars and interfere in other castes) and waggle their fingers in disapproval, but know the ways in which their own caste goes beyond the ancient caste rules (such talars being elite warriors, or holars using all sorts of beast magic) are absolutely necessary for practical modern reality. Hypocrisy - everyone should strive to be more like ancient Danmalastan, except those like me obviously- is probably pretty common. But then, I’ve never liked Rokarism from the start, and the more I learnt of its history the more my dislike was confirmed. It seemed too much like trying to imitate Brithini ways without making their most difficult choices, hopelessly trying to push back to a pre-Hrestol, pre-Time age that could never be regained, and probably shouldn’t be. LARPing at being Brithini. Much more friendly readings are possible, in which Rokarism is a series of carefully constructed compromises, designed to create a pragmatic, practical society on the Malkioni caste model that very carefully minimizes the chance of magical apocalypse through checks and balances and functional institutions that are effective against their hostile neighbors while not being corrupting. W what will be interesting to me is when we finally start to flesh out some of those weirder smaller sects, presumably mostly God Learner era sects of mainstream Hrestolism, like the Galvosti and the Boristi, and the Sedalpists. Though I don’t know which of them have Men Of All. The Valkarists don’t seem to, for example.

This is the Mostali way, and the Malkioni have been trading some knowledge with the Mostali (admittedly very cautiously) for centuries. I think certainly some knowledge that is considered essentially sorcerous may well have worked its way into particularly dronar guild knowledge, through Men of All at least if not actively under the Rokari. There will also be times when the castes collaborate (zzaburi and dronar collaborating on magic weapons and armour, siege engineering, magical defenses, etc). This may not look the same as sorcery normally does though. Not Mastering Runes or Techniques, no years of studying abstract theory. But knowledge of basic enchantments or alchemy techniques passing to dronar master craftsmen, or rote learned rituals similar to the Open Seas spell. Mostly as secrets of guilds passed down through the guild masters. Perhaps stolen Mostali secrets kept very hidden for fear of the Mostali learning about them.

While certainly possible, ancestor worship among the Talars seems far more significant in Seshnela. And the nature of ancestor worship is that it is primarily hereditary, and will not cross caste lines much at all. Given we know ancestor worship without shamans is possible, I think it is likely the case among the talars. And I’m not that sure that ancestor worship among the dronars gets them that much - few dronar ancestors will be notable at much except their craft. Professional gods (like the equivalents of Gustbran, farmer gods, Minlister, Mahome, Hyalor, etc) seem much more likely to be significant, often organised as Guilds for more specialised professions.

From @Jeff as linked to earlier in this thread, particularly his descriptions of cults such as Hrestol. I’m sorry if you did not find that context obvious.

Well, would for a Malkioni. Becoming an initiate of Orlanth would not be compatible with retaining membership of the talar caste, and so would mean giving up leadership, including the command and support of other castes, including any caste magic. Most major deities also forbid sorcery for higher levels. This pretty much applies even to Illumination - caste abilities are largely from being embedded in a social structure, not from within oneself. Though obviously skills and the material advantages of wealth and privilege are, to some extent at least, practical to retain. But only an extent. A talar who rejected Malkion to worship a pagan deity would find it difficult to keep living in the same castle.

Hrestol is a bit of a special case, as his main importance is fundamentally restructuring Malkioni society, but yes. Considered that way, Hrestol grants access to the caste abilities of other castes as his main benefit. But those few spells are still very welcome, makes him very capable of resisting foreign magic of all kinds, and don’t require abandoning previous abilities as most full rune cults do. A hero like Gerlant might be a better example. A Rokari talar devoted to Gerlant still is a cavalry trained warrior, still taught to lead men, still given the advantages of wealth such as superior armor and weapons and zzaburi to cast spells and enchantments on him, and has the support of his ancestors (including the knowledge of some practical magic). Sure, having a flaming sword is not comparable to the range of spells that an Orlanth worshippers gets, but it’s in addition to all the rest. Access to sorcery still makes a big difference if it’s through the support of sorcerers rather than by becoming one. Case in point - Hrestol allows the talars to become Man-Of-All, which means they are able (indeed, probably required) to become sorcerers. Not among the Rokari, but sorcery using Man Of All are the actual leaders amongst many Malkioni. Many of them aren’t great sorcerers - so they are much more likely to deal in sorcery that is performed in long rituals with lots of preparation to enhance their chances of casting. But the again, that sorcery is in addition to what magic they already have. Hrestols magic may be useful only in dealing with the threat of foreign magic - but that probably gives him the chance for a cavalry charge in sorcery enhanced armour, which is pretty significant.

To get God Learner specific for a moment - the God Learners monomythic program most likely identified those three deities as being alternate names for acceptable entities, probably Xemela, Kachast, and Tadenit, or close relatives of them (such as Garzeen being one of the sons of Issaries, and married into the House of Froalar). Thus worship of such provably acceptable beings is surely fine, etc. Another deity the God Learners were known to be fond of is Wachaza. Though he was invoked to defeat the Waertagi, that a minority of the Waertagi (one tribe) were known to worship Wachaza was probably invoked to justify his worship, though maybe only by horali. So in deciding what gods are acceptable, The God Learners (at least, at first) went back to their own deep mythic sources. Some modern henotheist sects probably have similar logic behind what is fine. The later Malkioneranist movement went much further later. But modern conservatives like the Rokari are not inclined to decide the God Learners were right up to a point, but would rather expunge all trace of theIr errors.

It’s not hard to spot spells that seem designed for Talor and Gerlant. Such sacred ancestors probably do not have the same range of magic as ‘true’ gods, but their magic is just as powerful if not as flexible (and access to sorcery compensates other deficiencies)

As discussed elsewhere, it is possible for ancestor worship to happen without the involvement of shamans, and I’m fairly sure this is the usual pattern among the talars. Without access to the full range of Daka Fal Magic it is probably more difficult for them to contact random unknown ancestors the way Daka Fal worshippers can, but then we also know that the Malkioni, including the Seshnegi, and very good at keeping written genealogical records, and appear to have been more or forever (right from when they were gods, In Zzaburs Blue Book, through to the Ice Age Families book). Without wishing to give spoilers for anyone yet to play the Dragon of Thunder Hills, the discussion of Orgorvale Summer on pg 115 is very relevant here. The point being the assumption that Ancestor Worship always means the Daka Fal cult and shamans is a false one.

I agree. In general I think conflating Ancestor Worship with Daka Fal is not very helpful, especially the unlikely to be that animist versions like among the Seshnegi talars, but Sartarite ancestor worshippers are very likely to recognise Daka Fal and Darhudan as the same deity. And many ancestor worshippers in Sartar are likely to be descended from, or intermarried with, Praxian ancestor worshippers. Indeed! And given the Seshnegi were a big part of the God Learners you’d think thy have this sorted out. It may be that the God Learners talk about Daka Fal rather than Ancestor Worship because they already know how civilised people should worship their ancestors, and don’t want it confused with what savage tribal shamans do.

While Nysalor is given that ability in the Gods preview, the ability seems to be a general ability for all forms of Illumination, not a special one for Nysalor. It is also listed as an ability available to all forms of Illumination in HeroQuest Glorantha. The only unique ability to Nysaloran Illumination seems to be their unique form of teaching through riddles - other forms may have their own special teaching methods, but Nysaloran Riddles seem comparitively easy.

Just echoing what everyone else has said: Similar to the Cults of Terror rules. If you use them as a starting point, you won’t go too far astray its explicitly stated that other forms of mysticism, such as Draconic forms, are essentially the same, though different in detail. not every Illuminate learns every power. Different paths to Illumination learn different things. Dedicated Illuminates can learn more powers later by talking studying with others, etc. the list is the same as in Cults of Terror, with the addition of two more - opposing Runes may not be opposed, and Passions and Runes no longer can compel the character. its not clear how such powers work exactly. It’s clear that not every Illuminate can raise opposed Runes, but do the learn each opposed pair as a separate ability? It seems likely the Lunars might learn Life and Death, for example. it is not intended to be very powerful in itself, but it can allow access to magic that is otherwise cut off. This can include things like Life or Death magic at the same time by raising both Runes. And the one example in the draft of a magic unique to Illuminates, but separate to it, was Red Goddess magic, very similar to RQ3 - only Illuminates can learn it, and it is potentially very powerful, but it comes from the Red Goddess and must be separately developed at some effort. It is certainly plausible that there are other ways in which some forms of Illumination are part of the pathway to other magic. Draconic magic may be something accessible via EWF methods. teaching Illumination is a rare Illumination power. Nysalor riddles are probably only one way of teaching, and a uniquely effective one. Lunar Madness spells and powers can help increase your chance of Illumination in a given Sacred Time. This implies that the Lunars may subject themselves to such powers in their Sevening rites. the Infinity rune connection does not get a mention, I would agree with Nick that at least for the moment treat this as just a HQ game convention.

The nobility are of course subject to the Laws of the Zzaburi. Whenever one Talar has defeated one another and wishes them imprisoned, killed or otherwise punished, a zzaburi can always be found who will explain the nature of the crimes they have committed that justify it.

I agree that Avanapdur is Illusion. I don’t think all his followers are non- Chaotic, or that the East Isles was totally spared.

I do not think annoying the Seshnegi is a motivating factor for the Loskalmi. Though possibly the other way around. The Loskalmi are even more down on animism than the Seshnegi (the Furlandan school treat it as spiritual disease that they must guard against).

Most Eastern ‘history’ is a reconstruction of what the past must have been like, based on what the people in power would like you to believe about now. I mean, even more than history elsewhere. I don’t think Govmeranen’s Empire was any more civilised than anywhere else. Like Murharzarms analogous empire, it was a bunch of quite different communities seen as unified in later mythologies. most current East Isles myth is probably the consensus of the Sage debates in the Empire of Golden Mokato, with the resulting mythic reinterpretation of everything. Shavaya seems to have been ‘emperor’ when a real urban culture based around cities built to a particular plan, and based around rice cultivation, emerged in Kralorela. Emperors before that are mythical beings that demonstrate the mythic unity of the Empire.

The Blue Moon does seem better known in Pamaltela, as the ancestress of the Veldang. Perhaps potatoes (and that intriguing but odd hero quest) are Pamaltelan.

Pamaltela, especially the southern plains, is notably more focused on beans and pulses.

And the Loskalmi, and probably most non-Seshnelan Malkioni really, would scoff. Which is why I said ‘many’, not ‘all’ or even ‘most’.

I generally take Daka Fal as the local ‘flavour’ of generic animist Ancestor Worship, and many other cultures (and some races) have a version of Ancestor Worship that has more or less the same form and spells. Whether they are all really the same deity, or this is a deeper mystery, is another question and I am sure there are many God Learner theses on the question. But they have a few local different myths, maybe different likely associates, but the same basic cult structure and spells. Various local versions include Daka Fal in Prax, Darhudan among the Heortlings, Old Man and Old Woman among the Hsunchen, Iste in the East Isles, and Ebe in Kralorela. These deities are all listed in the Guide with the same Runes, and all are ‘owners’ of the Man rune, which is rather a hint they are the same at the core - Grandfather Mortal (and Grandmother too), who reproduces and has children to create mortals, then later is killed. This isn’t all Ancestor Worship, by any means - in some cultures, they evolve non-animist ancestor worship, and this can differ. The ancient Heortlings worshipped the children of Vingkotlings as tribal ancestors. I’m pretty sure Aptanace the sage is civilised theist ancestor worship in Kralorela (with his 700 children as sub-cults that offer a little crafter magic etc). The ancient Seshnelans are said to have done something similar (and were just a few generations from Demi-gods, so it really worked well for them), something similar may still go on. But it’s a very primal thing that I think any shaman may be able to start if they really try. Also, I think in practice Ancestor Worshippers mostly function with each family of ancestor worshippers more or less separate, no ‘cult hierarchy’ or structure. Their ethos and expectations can differ significantly. And they definitely don’t always work together, sometimes it’s Hatfields and McCoys with feuds transcending death. Chaotic ancestor worshippers are just the same - a family of ogres might know all their ogre ancestors, and get good help from them (the ancestors probably like a little blood sacrifice and to enjoy a little incarnation for food and torture every now and then, but that’s expected). Broo, though - they probably don’t know the names etc of many of their ancestors, and they tend to hate and fear each other anyway, so summoning random ancestors is dangerous and unpleasant. Broo being the hateful desperate beings they are, they probably still make it work somehow. NB: it’s unusual to combine sorcery and ancestor worship, at least the shamanic form (and would be pretty heretical to many modern Malkioni). But it can work surprisingly well! Let Magus Great Uncle incarnate for a few hours to cast a few spells, some enchanting maybe, share a bit of wisdom…

I also had an elf PC in an RQ3 game I GMed who totally outclassed the other players. He qualified for Wood Lord at character generation. The other players included a Hrestoli (the game was in Fronela, based around Sog City) who, according to the RQ3 rules, was a sorcery user but who wasn’t even allowed to earn Intensity until he’d qualified during play, so the gap in levels of competence was huge. The elf was a warrior, and rolled 15 on the 2d8 for age, which meant +75 to his Bow skill. He was very lethal at range, and better than most at melee (though no damage bonus). He was also an elf far from his home in a city based campaign, so needed lots of help from humans to get stuff done, in a not particularly combat heavy game. From memory he had some special mission from the forest to accomplish, in a game with the Kingdom of War as looming off scene plot driver but not actually encountered much.

Maybe you just need better players? I play a Babeester Gor PC at the moment. She is not beautiful, men-hating, overly-sexualised, perpetually under-dressed or kinky. She is deadly, but that’s pretty core to the cult. She hates oath-breakers and tusk riders, mostly dresses like a professional warrior, and is somewhat aromantic, unsurprising for someone with an 89% Death rune. I’m more sick of every tough as nails PC fighter being a Humakti, tbh.

The relevant quote from the Guide is The Pent peoples underwent deep soul searching and spirit questioning to find survival in the years after the devastating Nights of Horror. Many new tribes were founded in attempts to draw upon new customs. New gods were worshiped, sometimes thought to be, and sometimes discovered later to be, storm gods so probably not directly inherited from the Hyalorings, or any other ancient tradition, though perhaps by heroquesting back to paths that come via Hyaloring myth. A more interesting connection might be the Qingshi people of Shiyang province in Kralorela, who worship Wangbiao or King Violent Wind, which sounds a lot like the Pentan Storm Tribe worship of West King Wind. The Qingshi people in turn are descended from the Wind Children/ Qa-Ying of the Northern Shan. So a synthesis of Qingshi Storm worship from Kralorelan troops recruited by Sheng with the ancient Pentan tribal ways including Hyaloring riding tradition, but a rejection of Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant as having failed them in the Nights of Horror?