davecake

? Gerlant is a Secret Keeper, and thus of an acknowledged lineage. He was not a King by birth, but as he marries into a royal lineage you would assume he is of the Talar caste (if not by birth, by becoming a Man of All, but being of a known sacred lineage you’d presume by birth). You seem to be assuming ‘not a king by birth’ is the same as ‘not a talar by birth’, which I don’t think is true. Horal also wields several other weapons, from other gods. So yes. Yes, and as a Brithini Horal he does not seem to be particularly successful, and then quickly breaks caste law. I doubt he is venerated for that. Prather, he is venerated for his deeds starting as a Man of All - and that not by the Rokari. Yes indeed. But they aren’t Rokari. And accept Arkat as a Man of All if they care about his caste at all.

Like the Vadeli, most obviously.

No, that ghost is not in the underworld, but is not undead. Humakt cultists can volunteer to become ghosts themselves, such as to guard a temple, and such a ghost is not angry, or held against its will (The Bind Ghost spell) Humakt I think do often get asked to deal with such angry spirits. Possibly because a lot of people don’t really know the difference and think they might be undead. But I think not because Humakt is against all ghosts, actually the opposite - the dead are in Humakts care (among others), and he wishes to help them. But they do not always assume that such a ghost is wrong or malevolent by it’s nature. They will try to find out why it remains. Sometimes they might decide a ghost is being treated unjustly and should be freed by dispelling what binds it. Sometimes they may want to help it complete its task, including seeking justice for it. Sometimes they may decided it is right to continue doing what it is doing, whether it’s keeping a vigil or being punished for an ancient dead. Humakt have some tools at their disposal for these tasks, including being able to fight ghosts using their swords with Truesword rather than in spirit combat, and freeing them using Sever Spirit. But they are often less useful than others, such as Ty Kora Tek or Daka Fal.

A good question. They appear a bit borderline - you could consider them a ghost whose binding object just happens to be it’s own previous skull. Or you could consider them a weird half life, at least when they still have flesh (that they seem to have some limited ability to move). I tend to not think of them as undead in the standard sense, not dead things that returned to life, but suspended on the borderline indefinitely. In RQ3 ‘standard’ zombies, different to ZZ zombies (more like classic Haitian voudou zombies), we’re undead, but it was a temporary state. They were bound back to the body forcibly by an enchantment spell, and their POW ‘suppressed’, and if it became free they desperately sought destruction to free their ghost from the body it was imprisoned in. It’s a similar case - but a head ghost having no body cannot destroy itself, only go mad.

Yeah, hellions (sentient bubbles of entropy) and chonchons (the flying head things) we’re both weird otherworld beings in RQ3, and both had magic points but not POW. Neither counted as Undead, because they weren’t truly alive (in , but they seemed related. Hellions had just SIZ of 1 and INT, plus their hit points, magic points and armour points are equal, like RQG demons. Weirdly, they had no means of gaining magic points given, unless they happened to know sorcery and learn Tap. There was no indication of how they survived otherwise. Chonchons did not have permanent physical bodies, but could only exist in Darkness. They could drain magic points with a bite. In RQ3 Creatures book, it says creatures without POW are soulless, and says all undead are soulless - but by implication not all soulless are dead. This seems like reasonable terminology for the rare times we need the distinction in RQG. Most soulless things in RQ3 are undead, such as zombies, mummies, ghouls, vampires. Lamiae are soulless in RQ3 and described as vampiric, but do not appear to be undead - they are Chaotic, however. Wraiths are described as a form of ghosts, but are soulless, in RQ3 - but in RQG they have POW again. And none of the other things in RQ3 that are soulless but not undead have been written up for RQG yet. They may not appear in RQG at all - none of them ever had a clear mythical role that I am aware of. The RQ3 Gloranthan Bestiary added only one to this list - Jolanti. And they are soulless in RQG still.

The put it in simple rules terms - the cult of a major Ancestor like Froawal probably grants a limited number of rune spells, including Summon Ancestor, Summon Specific Ancestor, and Summon Spirit Teacher. I think a limited number of other Rune spells. On the rare occasion it becomes necessary to perform a ‘shaman’ task, like a spirit quest into the spirit world, they summon an ancestor with all three spells so their ancestor may act as a fetch, and Discorporate probably using a ceremony that involves something along the lines of hazia, and can then travel into the spirit world without danger. Yes, most of the time they are kind of bad at this, and it’s something done in extremis. But they can also look into getting other sources of help - Spirit Block from Hrestol, sorcerous help from friendly Zzaburi, and the assistance of powerful ancestors. But that’s the generic version. Most lineages will include other ancestors of heroic or divine status, and get a few other magics that way.

I would have said all three of those are caste deities of Men Of All or talars, not horals. And Arkat not accepted among the Seshnegi at all. The caste deity, if not Horal himself, likely Humakt or other warrior gods. Through these gods they are granted their weapons and weapon magic (in ancient Malkioni myth) - but they do not serve them, so I think they practice only cut down, limited versions of those cults. They must always put their talar above their god, or they break caste law. That said, it’s not as if Rokari horali are likely to be Resurrected, or be asked to fight alongside undead, anyway, right? But still, most stick to their beast societies, who make less awkward demands.

We already know that lineage lists are very important to the talars at least, and conceptually to the zzaburi. Several major ‘sacred’ or magical books of the Malkioni are basically big lineage lists, with the ancestry of ‘gods’ and other magical being intermingling with the lineages of houses of the nobility - and the noble houses carefully maintain these lineages in their own records. Of course this has become different in the modern era for other castes - zzabur are no longer within their birth caste (but still obsess over the lineages of magical entities), horali may have come originally from non-Malkioni people, dronars may not even have long term family records. But I think obsessively caring about lineages (that usually link to legendary/ divine beings) and recording them in books is still a trait of the Malkioni upper classes almost everywhere. Of course the Orlanthi do this too, but it’s usually much more an oral tradition, and they seem much more flexible about it - a persons deeds can always over rule their lineage.

I admit my understanding of how Rokari society functions is a lot of almost universally understood and tolerated hypocrisy. Everyone knows that their own caste has many members who push the boundaries of what should be accepted, but forgives their own transgressions. Everyone knows they other castes go beyond what should be accepted (in various ways - the zzaburi generally keep to the magical rules, but I think other castes think they usurp the role of talars and interfere in other castes) and waggle their fingers in disapproval, but know the ways in which their own caste goes beyond the ancient caste rules (such talars being elite warriors, or holars using all sorts of beast magic) are absolutely necessary for practical modern reality. Hypocrisy - everyone should strive to be more like ancient Danmalastan, except those like me obviously- is probably pretty common. But then, I’ve never liked Rokarism from the start, and the more I learnt of its history the more my dislike was confirmed. It seemed too much like trying to imitate Brithini ways without making their most difficult choices, hopelessly trying to push back to a pre-Hrestol, pre-Time age that could never be regained, and probably shouldn’t be. LARPing at being Brithini. Much more friendly readings are possible, in which Rokarism is a series of carefully constructed compromises, designed to create a pragmatic, practical society on the Malkioni caste model that very carefully minimizes the chance of magical apocalypse through checks and balances and functional institutions that are effective against their hostile neighbors while not being corrupting. W what will be interesting to me is when we finally start to flesh out some of those weirder smaller sects, presumably mostly God Learner era sects of mainstream Hrestolism, like the Galvosti and the Boristi, and the Sedalpists. Though I don’t know which of them have Men Of All. The Valkarists don’t seem to, for example.

This is the Mostali way, and the Malkioni have been trading some knowledge with the Mostali (admittedly very cautiously) for centuries. I think certainly some knowledge that is considered essentially sorcerous may well have worked its way into particularly dronar guild knowledge, through Men of All at least if not actively under the Rokari. There will also be times when the castes collaborate (zzaburi and dronar collaborating on magic weapons and armour, siege engineering, magical defenses, etc). This may not look the same as sorcery normally does though. Not Mastering Runes or Techniques, no years of studying abstract theory. But knowledge of basic enchantments or alchemy techniques passing to dronar master craftsmen, or rote learned rituals similar to the Open Seas spell. Mostly as secrets of guilds passed down through the guild masters. Perhaps stolen Mostali secrets kept very hidden for fear of the Mostali learning about them.

While certainly possible, ancestor worship among the Talars seems far more significant in Seshnela. And the nature of ancestor worship is that it is primarily hereditary, and will not cross caste lines much at all. Given we know ancestor worship without shamans is possible, I think it is likely the case among the talars. And I’m not that sure that ancestor worship among the dronars gets them that much - few dronar ancestors will be notable at much except their craft. Professional gods (like the equivalents of Gustbran, farmer gods, Minlister, Mahome, Hyalor, etc) seem much more likely to be significant, often organised as Guilds for more specialised professions.

From @Jeff as linked to earlier in this thread, particularly his descriptions of cults such as Hrestol. I’m sorry if you did not find that context obvious.

Well, would for a Malkioni. Becoming an initiate of Orlanth would not be compatible with retaining membership of the talar caste, and so would mean giving up leadership, including the command and support of other castes, including any caste magic. Most major deities also forbid sorcery for higher levels. This pretty much applies even to Illumination - caste abilities are largely from being embedded in a social structure, not from within oneself. Though obviously skills and the material advantages of wealth and privilege are, to some extent at least, practical to retain. But only an extent. A talar who rejected Malkion to worship a pagan deity would find it difficult to keep living in the same castle.

Hrestol is a bit of a special case, as his main importance is fundamentally restructuring Malkioni society, but yes. Considered that way, Hrestol grants access to the caste abilities of other castes as his main benefit. But those few spells are still very welcome, makes him very capable of resisting foreign magic of all kinds, and don’t require abandoning previous abilities as most full rune cults do. A hero like Gerlant might be a better example. A Rokari talar devoted to Gerlant still is a cavalry trained warrior, still taught to lead men, still given the advantages of wealth such as superior armor and weapons and zzaburi to cast spells and enchantments on him, and has the support of his ancestors (including the knowledge of some practical magic). Sure, having a flaming sword is not comparable to the range of spells that an Orlanth worshippers gets, but it’s in addition to all the rest. Access to sorcery still makes a big difference if it’s through the support of sorcerers rather than by becoming one. Case in point - Hrestol allows the talars to become Man-Of-All, which means they are able (indeed, probably required) to become sorcerers. Not among the Rokari, but sorcery using Man Of All are the actual leaders amongst many Malkioni. Many of them aren’t great sorcerers - so they are much more likely to deal in sorcery that is performed in long rituals with lots of preparation to enhance their chances of casting. But the again, that sorcery is in addition to what magic they already have. Hrestols magic may be useful only in dealing with the threat of foreign magic - but that probably gives him the chance for a cavalry charge in sorcery enhanced armour, which is pretty significant.

To get God Learner specific for a moment - the God Learners monomythic program most likely identified those three deities as being alternate names for acceptable entities, probably Xemela, Kachast, and Tadenit, or close relatives of them (such as Garzeen being one of the sons of Issaries, and married into the House of Froalar). Thus worship of such provably acceptable beings is surely fine, etc. Another deity the God Learners were known to be fond of is Wachaza. Though he was invoked to defeat the Waertagi, that a minority of the Waertagi (one tribe) were known to worship Wachaza was probably invoked to justify his worship, though maybe only by horali. So in deciding what gods are acceptable, The God Learners (at least, at first) went back to their own deep mythic sources. Some modern henotheist sects probably have similar logic behind what is fine. The later Malkioneranist movement went much further later. But modern conservatives like the Rokari are not inclined to decide the God Learners were right up to a point, but would rather expunge all trace of theIr errors.

It’s not hard to spot spells that seem designed for Talor and Gerlant. Such sacred ancestors probably do not have the same range of magic as ‘true’ gods, but their magic is just as powerful if not as flexible (and access to sorcery compensates other deficiencies)

As discussed elsewhere, it is possible for ancestor worship to happen without the involvement of shamans, and I’m fairly sure this is the usual pattern among the talars. Without access to the full range of Daka Fal Magic it is probably more difficult for them to contact random unknown ancestors the way Daka Fal worshippers can, but then we also know that the Malkioni, including the Seshnegi, and very good at keeping written genealogical records, and appear to have been more or forever (right from when they were gods, In Zzaburs Blue Book, through to the Ice Age Families book). Without wishing to give spoilers for anyone yet to play the Dragon of Thunder Hills, the discussion of Orgorvale Summer on pg 115 is very relevant here. The point being the assumption that Ancestor Worship always means the Daka Fal cult and shamans is a false one.

I agree. In general I think conflating Ancestor Worship with Daka Fal is not very helpful, especially the unlikely to be that animist versions like among the Seshnegi talars, but Sartarite ancestor worshippers are very likely to recognise Daka Fal and Darhudan as the same deity. And many ancestor worshippers in Sartar are likely to be descended from, or intermarried with, Praxian ancestor worshippers. Indeed! And given the Seshnegi were a big part of the God Learners you’d think thy have this sorted out. It may be that the God Learners talk about Daka Fal rather than Ancestor Worship because they already know how civilised people should worship their ancestors, and don’t want it confused with what savage tribal shamans do.

While Nysalor is given that ability in the Gods preview, the ability seems to be a general ability for all forms of Illumination, not a special one for Nysalor. It is also listed as an ability available to all forms of Illumination in HeroQuest Glorantha. The only unique ability to Nysaloran Illumination seems to be their unique form of teaching through riddles - other forms may have their own special teaching methods, but Nysaloran Riddles seem comparitively easy.

Just echoing what everyone else has said: Similar to the Cults of Terror rules. If you use them as a starting point, you won’t go too far astray its explicitly stated that other forms of mysticism, such as Draconic forms, are essentially the same, though different in detail. not every Illuminate learns every power. Different paths to Illumination learn different things. Dedicated Illuminates can learn more powers later by talking studying with others, etc. the list is the same as in Cults of Terror, with the addition of two more - opposing Runes may not be opposed, and Passions and Runes no longer can compel the character. its not clear how such powers work exactly. It’s clear that not every Illuminate can raise opposed Runes, but do the learn each opposed pair as a separate ability? It seems likely the Lunars might learn Life and Death, for example. it is not intended to be very powerful in itself, but it can allow access to magic that is otherwise cut off. This can include things like Life or Death magic at the same time by raising both Runes. And the one example in the draft of a magic unique to Illuminates, but separate to it, was Red Goddess magic, very similar to RQ3 - only Illuminates can learn it, and it is potentially very powerful, but it comes from the Red Goddess and must be separately developed at some effort. It is certainly plausible that there are other ways in which some forms of Illumination are part of the pathway to other magic. Draconic magic may be something accessible via EWF methods. teaching Illumination is a rare Illumination power. Nysalor riddles are probably only one way of teaching, and a uniquely effective one. Lunar Madness spells and powers can help increase your chance of Illumination in a given Sacred Time. This implies that the Lunars may subject themselves to such powers in their Sevening rites. the Infinity rune connection does not get a mention, I would agree with Nick that at least for the moment treat this as just a HQ game convention.

The nobility are of course subject to the Laws of the Zzaburi. Whenever one Talar has defeated one another and wishes them imprisoned, killed or otherwise punished, a zzaburi can always be found who will explain the nature of the crimes they have committed that justify it.

I agree that Avanapdur is Illusion. I don’t think all his followers are non- Chaotic, or that the East Isles was totally spared.

I do not think annoying the Seshnegi is a motivating factor for the Loskalmi. Though possibly the other way around. The Loskalmi are even more down on animism than the Seshnegi (the Furlandan school treat it as spiritual disease that they must guard against).

Most Eastern ‘history’ is a reconstruction of what the past must have been like, based on what the people in power would like you to believe about now. I mean, even more than history elsewhere. I don’t think Govmeranen’s Empire was any more civilised than anywhere else. Like Murharzarms analogous empire, it was a bunch of quite different communities seen as unified in later mythologies. most current East Isles myth is probably the consensus of the Sage debates in the Empire of Golden Mokato, with the resulting mythic reinterpretation of everything. Shavaya seems to have been ‘emperor’ when a real urban culture based around cities built to a particular plan, and based around rice cultivation, emerged in Kralorela. Emperors before that are mythical beings that demonstrate the mythic unity of the Empire.

The Blue Moon does seem better known in Pamaltela, as the ancestress of the Veldang. Perhaps potatoes (and that intriguing but odd hero quest) are Pamaltelan.