Joerg

The Gift Bringers chase you if you crop up in Umathela or Fonrit with that knowledge, provided the cult did not exterminate itself for knowledge about the forbidden knowledge. The Gift Bringers never operated north of the Homeward Ocean, as the Closing prevented any communication. We don't know whether the secret hunted down by the Gift Bringers was the RuneQuest Sight, or whether it was some other heroquesting ability. Everybody who knew about the secret - including the Gift Bringers themselves - was eradicated. There are plenty of ways to create or revive a god inside Time that don't violate the Compromise. Manifesting a major deity (i.e. something a lot bigger than Firshala or our barley-headed godling down in Snake Pipe Hollow) probably will violate the compromise, but the four new stars for Orlanth's Ring don't really. Possessing the RuneQuest Sight does not violate the Compromise. It used to trigger the rage of a Pamaltelan secret organisation, and looking at Fonrit, I doubt they managed to reach everyone. Illuminates die, like everyone else does. Heroquesters die, and then return from the Underworld to avenge themselves. What's your source for that? Finally a statement I can agree with.

The alternative would be a very sloppy creator bulding the world as fragments of a chaotic apocalypse with fragments of myths to build from.

While both the God Learners and the Lunars were foes of the Orlanthi, that is about what they had in common in terms of goals and methods. The agents of reprisal you mentioned were NOT sent by the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass and Peloria (who still lingered under the after-effects of the EWF and its collapse and had little if any magical clout left, and they had overcome the local God Learner perversion more than a century earlier. The Gift Bringers were a Umathelan effort to deal with the rampant perversions over there, and didn't make it across the Closed oceans. The God Learners of Teshnos were left leaderless when their heroic king Av(a)lor left to pursue the abductors of his wife across the continent all the way to Loskalm, the ones in Kralorela were something else and perished only after the Dragonkill (which came 70 years after the drownings of the western God Learner lands Seshnela, Slontos and presumably Jrustela (where we have no witness accounts for the date of the drowning). Esrolia, the main population of the Orlanthi culture surviving the Dragonkill, was pretty much shaken up by those events, too. The Lunars use different secrets to meddle and suppress deities. And, as illuminates, their sorcerers are immune to certain sendings, and their use of Chaos gives them another countermeasure.

Clay Mostali produce a proto-dwarf module by a tasteless and not very well documented means which then is placed into suitable containers to manufacture it into a Clay Mostali. Without the subsequent treatment in the containers, it is doubtful whether the proto-dwarf module would survive, even if taken care of by say nymphs or earth cultists, and it certainly wouldn't make a viable dwarf in any way. Not even a Flintnail dwarf-lookalike. Clay Mostali are a form of (cy)borg, if we look at the way they are ripened and developed/programmed. Dwarves that aren't constructs are found beneath Pavis - the descendants of Flintnail and the Daughter of Pavis. I am positive that Ginkizzie had full siblings, and he will have had offspring. I am fairly convinced that the Big Rubble colony lacked most of the ripening/programming equipment used elsewhere in the Greatway and Nidan sphere of influence and made do with Earth Magics and human-style grimoires to make up for the lack. The elder Jolanti are alive, rather than golems. Their programming / training / upbringing may have been too rudimentary, but the dringi (the jolanti released by Gonn Orta and taken care of by aldryami in the Aggar region) show that that programming or learning can be brought up to rather full development, making them just another of the giant races (and not the most dim-witted one, either). Dwarves are alive. And they are self-replicating constructs that employ methods that bear an unfortunate (to them) resemblance to the magics of Growth. (And unfortunate to any of their foes who have to deal with more of the critters than they can digest.)

That's Old Sartar and Kethaela (and who knows what is going on further west south of the Rockwoods - which has not been covered in either RQG or HQG). If you play a Pelorian-descended Sartarite (Far Point, Dinacoli), Yelmalio is sort of the normal way of your Sun God. Possibly still associated with Orlanth as much as with Yelm. Where does that leave the identity of the tidal goddess with Sedenya? Do you address this? That affects e.g. the Melibians, the Fonritian blues, the Zamokil Blues, the Masloi, that place in Loskalm which has fragments of the Blue Moon, and apparently has already affected the people of God Forgot, the magics of the Moonbroth Oasis. Do we retain separate cults there? And do you have something about the Bat Goddess, the Fourth Rebel in Jar-eel's Liberation sermon/quest?

Yes, Greg was very clear that Elmal and Yelmalio are different gods. Elmal is not Lightfore, he is the Sun. KoS was very clear, that Elmal is the Sun for the Heortlings. Ian, I tried to offer a bridge between the various statements here. Greg did a number of categorical statements which have since been softened up, like the "three strictly separate worlds until your activities in the Hero Wars change that" dogma which we have left behind us (without too much mourning for this dogma, I believe). Yes, I do think that Elmal represents the Sun for the Heortlings - the ripening sun disk of the day, and the heroic survivor and night guardian at night. If I look at Six Ages (which I cannot play yet, being an Android user...) Elmal appears to be Kargzant or Reladivus, the one planetary son that leaves his post in the advance of Umath to follow the intruder and watch from behind. A direct planetary son, one of the first generation of urban orbs in Dara Happa (as tradited in the Copper Tablets without giving any contemporary names or explanations), a survivor of the impact of Umath, and around and active well into the Greater Darkness, and again long before the Dawn (and it is only Dara Happan dogma that Kargzant did not remain alive throught the Greater Darkness, if Antirius wasn't able to - even Shargash, the planetary son returning from Hell in his struggle with Umath, had to die and return from the Underworld once more, which in his case was little more than a visit in his real home). Verithurus(a) was another planetary "son" visiting the Underworld along with Umath, getting pregnant from the Invader, and returning as the (other) red body (along with Shargash and potentially Artia) that participated in the slaying of the Emperor. That went to the Underworld again (possibly like Shargash, again) to reappear as the sky witch twins born to Black Entekos aka KataMoripi... No such Underworld sojourns for Reladivus/Kargzant/Elmal, who nonetheless got differentiated into three very different horse and/or rider (and even charioteer) gods (associated with different sorts of horses, too, to boot), who instead wandered around. Elmal struggled with Orlanth (as you keep rightly pointing out, and reframing the conflict between Storm and Sun (but not between Rebel King and Emperor) in one of the cycles that make up Godtime. This means that Elmal/Kargzant are of different substance than Antirius, who is the remnant of the slain Emperor and the self-dismembered Greater (and Invisible behind all those lesser orbs) Sun. Yelmalio is the god that was introduced as Daysenerus, a portion of Antirius - possibly the Elmal/Kargzant/Reladivus portion that was contributed to the Greater Sun, mixed with the Hastatus Speargod element (one of the weapon sons of Yelm, another horizontal differentiation) that is much less pronounced with Kargzant (who is more closely associated with the Golden Bow of lost Elempur) and weaker with Elmal (whose name practically suggests some identity with Elempur, too). There is also lost Yamsur, a vague memory without a cult but potential for lots of answers if a more complete set of memories could be accessed. None of the cults or deities that made it into Time without some syncretism. On more than one occasion, fiery orbs in the sky ran into one another, in at least one instance absorbing one body into the other (during Umath's invasion), in at least one instance with two bodies colliding, some mixing of stuff going on, and two bodies emerging, both in different size and composition than before, and presumably the same could be said for the deities associated with those bodies. This gives ample ground to claim truthfully that Elmal is the same god as Yelmalio, and that Elmal is the same sun as Yelm, and that Elmal and Yelmalio are Lightfore, as are Kargzant and Antirius and various others. There is a good case for Lightfore having started out as Zayteneras, the planetary deity in Copper Tablet 5 that doesn't sit in the ring of the Planetary Sons, and possibly being the low emanation of Dayzatar, or yet another Lunar emanation (or whatever remains of the White Goddess preceding Brightface which the great immobile syncretic sun could not contain). All of these statements are grounded in material published in the official channels for Glorantha, at various times, sometimes in parallel. All of them are truths, and none of them contain anything approaching the full or only truth. Jeff was wrong in the past, and he was right in the past, and sometimes with the same statements. Like all of us at this level of involvement. If Elmal is less present in RuneQuest publications, that may have to do with the rather negative impact the introduction of Elmal had at the time KoS appeared, and RQG having the aim of returning a good number of those die-hard RQ2 fans into the fold who were dismayed by the revelation of this new sun god when there were the perfectly usable Yelm and Yelmalio. The way Jeff is dealing with this in the RQ-centric Gods of Glorantha certainly provides a body of data that will support those folks' views while allowing for some Elmal. A RuneQuest Glorantha truth which works for both the returnees, neophytes who aren't into our "hardness of polytheism" debates, and for those of us who take everything with too much of game system reference as one of the lesser truths, regardless which of the many game systems are used. Elmal fought against Orlanth in the Gods War - that was how they met, and the Gods War was already on. Yelmalio notably resisted Orlanth when there would have been a loyal Sun thane back at Orlanth's stead (and in Orlanth's matrimonial bed). Arkat fought himself on the Heroplane. Other gods faced themselves in different aspects, too. Kargan Tor for instance may have found himself among the Chaos invaders of the Spike when he was supposed to defend the Celestial Palace. The story that Orlanth killed the sun may not be what the Orlanthi believed before the Bright Empire pushed this on them. At the worst, Orlanth killed one of the many sun gods, and thereby contributed to make the world a darker place (and parts of the Underworld unbearably bright. Whether that was the strike that killed the Evil Uncle Emperor is another question. There may have been a Hill of Gold event where the solar spearman lost his life to Orlanth. Orlanth is the bully with slight remorse, which made him the most eligible of the bunch of storm gods to be accepted by the Earth Queen. The Rebel king rules over quite a bunch of former opponents who he beat in more or less fair fights and then offered a hand to get up again. Quite a few of these may have gone before Orlanth becomes part of the Sword Story, making their death less permanent, and possibly some of that lesser dying kept going on significantly into the Lesser Darkness before the Greater Darkness put an end to that. The GL sorcerer can create a pattern of runic interactions which is applicable to both of these myths. Not necessarily the only pattern of runic interaction that can be used to describe either myth, but there is an obvious sameness to be extracted in both sets of myth. The GL heroquester still has to use one of the countless local rites to go there and do something about this recognized pattern and possibly change it or turn it into a magical boon. His conception will be different, sort of an augmented reality where his RuneQuest Sight can apply the pattern and some rote pattern-influencing techniques. You are treating Lightfore as an unrelated issue, which may be the root of your unwillingness to accept that for certain values, Elmal and Yelmalio are the same. Complete loss of all direct fire magics for Elmal seems slightly off to me. The whole concept for the Elmal cult is a slightly different outcome of the Hill of Gold concept, a well-known accepted bypass for Yelmalio to take fire powers without breaking his cult restrictions. The Elmal cult is what you get when the entire cult participates in that outcome rather than a single quester. Lightfore is a necessary portion of the sun. It may be its antipode, it may be the immortal portion which cannot enter the Underworld and hence reappears on the opposite end of the Sunpath when the mortal portion of Yelm enters the Underworld, it may be Yelm's Other. And it is one (of several possible) celestial presentations of the Lesser Sun Gods. The "orb above the ziggurat/mountain" representation is another. I agree completely. The disappearance of the sun may not even be related to Orlanth's raid on the Emperor's celestial palace. I will be awaiting that when you find the time. This thread has brought a couple of insights to me, and I would like to see some of your questions and possible answers for that complex. All Orlanth myths using "Yelm" are alterations of the original wording, all of them post Argentium Thri'ile, likely post Sun Stop and under the Bright Empire. But then both the Second Council and the Bright Empire brought the Lightbringer myths to hill barbarians who had quite different local versions, e.g. in distant Fronela. (And so did Harmast Barefoot.) I fear you are being about as dogmatic about this as Greg was about the Three Separate Worlds, and as Jeff comes across now wearing his RuneQuest Sight lenses. I appreciate your frank statement of how much this goes against your expectations, especially with the role you have in the publications of Glorantha, and I feel with you just as I felt with MOB when the first Elmal shocks ran against the glorious publication of Sun County early in the nineties. From various in-culture points of view, both extremes are correct: Elmal is the same god as Yelmalio, and Elmal has never been the same god as Yelmalio. Where your Gloranthan persona stands in this spectrum may influence their accessibility to magics associated with either extreme. From a sufficiently remote perspective, whether as a real world scholar of the world or as a highly "enlightened" mystic (or sheer brawn "victor" of the Hill of Gold contests) you may see the branches, commonalities and differences, and highlight them as required. Ralian Ehilm and the Pamaltelan and various eastern Sun Empire variants (with and without dragon actors) bring more weirdness on the table. The West is sufficiently abstract in first claiming the False God Error and then ignoring much of what ensues. The Genertelan Brithini before and at the Dawn probably less so, but still sufficiently removed to have almost as little personal involvement as an accomplished Nysalorean.

The term "Mostali" hasn't been used in a strictly cladistic way, much like the term "Orlanthi" hasn't. The Yelmalian spearmen of Vanntar (to use the example from that effervescent and happily non-hostile bunch of other threads currently running) are Orlanthi by culture (as were the original Aramite ancestors of the Tusk Riders), but they treat Orlanth as an often (or even usually) hostile deity who sometimes repents and does exculpatory honorable stuff, they don't worship Orlanth directly (or when they do, they do it through other names, like Barntar). Yet their general culture is Theyalan, aka Orlanthi, regardless of the many Dara Happan trappings they adopted in true fanboy style (think of the prevalence of blue jeans or rock and roll in the world). Mostali is the collective term for all the creatures that derive from the work of Mostal. True (or Ancestral) Mostali, Iron Mostali (created without the participation of the original Mostal), Clay Mostali, Nilmergs/Gremlins, Gobblers, Jolanti, Mineral Beasts (both metal and stone). Possibly even Mostali-built structures (like Sartar's Palace and the Pockets in Boldhome). The original eight castes had these demigod beings that came directly from the containers in which Mostal itself and all the Ancestral Mostali created up to that point had designed and shaped the caste. They are True Mostali. A case can be made for a further cladistic distinction between Ancestral Mostali who were made when Mostal itself participated and True Mostali who were made when Mostal left the process to be run by the Ancestrals created so far, without its direct input. In that sense, there are no Ancestral Iron Mostali, only True ones. If you make this additional distinction - made from the original container (which was lost along with the Spike), or recreated through those unhealthy Clay Container-introduced method of ex-Vitro conception - then I would classify the majority of Iron caste short ones as Clay Iron Mostali or Iron Dwarves. There are no pictures of True Mostali in the Guide. There aren't any depictions of the Dagori Inkarth Eldest Mother or other true Mistress Race Uz, either. They wouldn't prove much, anyway, in my opinion, since neither Mistress Race females nor True Mostali are shape consistent. The True Mostali IMO has the ability to reshape itself as the best tool for the task. If that task is Isidilian taking on requests from non-Mostali customers, a regal dwarf hero shape is the one to assume. They are prototypes still being used, full of experimental or quality control features that weren't necessary for the mass runs. (Possibly a manufacturing difference between Ancestral and True Mostali, too, if you buy into my distinction.) Features that were definitely skipped in the Clay Mostali runs, and that couldn't be implemented in the ex-Vitro fertilization processes anyway. (The Clay Mostali have a development process quite similar to the Aldryami nut being planted into the soil when the proto-dwarf-module is removed from the parental unit and placed into crude machinery derived from those original containers, though with way less sophistication (or rather raw shaping magic) that the originals possessed.

Not necessarily. One of the most useful statements in Arcane Lore is the pluripresence of divine entities, and even mortal heroes achieving a first lower state of immortality. Do we really know that Lightfore is a different god? There is a case to be made for a parallel between the DHan interpretation of the planet Mastakos as Uleria (the epitome of Life cannot die and reappears in the sky at the Gates of Dawn as soon as she disappears at the Gates of Dusk) and the synchronized appearance/disappearance of the Sun and Lightfore, as if the Dawn has brought back much of the mortal body of the sun that defines the day, but the immortal soul of the sun remains in the heavens and wanders there as Lightfore. Both bodies really are one deity. Same with Kargzant and Yu-Kargzant. The names really support the theory I made above. The RQG position is that the cultic practices and the entity worshipped has the same magics. As for myself, I think that the followers of both Elmal and Kargzant are more than willing to say that the daytime sun is of course their deity, dragging all that stuff that was lost in Hell across the sky, while showing its heroic and immortal core in the night. Kargzant by night, Yu-Kargzant by day. The Yelmalians have somewhere taken on the practice of referencing the daytime appearance to Yelm only, opening up a magical pathway to the Full Sun magics that neither Kargzant nor Elmal provide through the means of making them associate benefits. They have to be illuminated (whether by Lunar, Riddler, Draconic, or Hill of Gold Quest means) to access both the full daytime and fire magics and the nighttime immortality. I think that Elmal should provide Sunripen directly, whereas Yelmalio defers this as associate magic from the Father Sun.

In a sense, every death is a dismemberment. The Orlanthi believe in the five souls, DHans have six, Lunars even seven, but one of each is the shape or body (or at least body image) which is separated from the immortal soul that goes down to the Court of Silence. The verdict is still open whether Orlanth faced the sun god or just the Evil Emperor (and the two got conflated later on), or whether the rebels (four of them, according to Jar-eel's Liberation sermon/dreamquest delivered to Beatpot in Prince of Sartar) all struck simultaneously, with one of the rebels being a son or portion of the previously dismembered Storm King (Umath/Umatum). There is a possibility that the only presence of the Storm deity in the original DHan myths was the Sword that slew the Emperor. There is also a possibility that the Emperor (Murharzarm) was all that held the remaining city orbs (after Umath's incursion to the Sky - several orbs were possibly second generation or replacement ones by now) together into a common perception of the One Sun, and that Antirius was a part or portion that left the Emperor or all of the lesser orbs and formed upon this dismemberment. Possibly the wyter of the sun cities and/or their orb gods, which had just lost its physical presentation. The uz know that something fiery, weeping and dead was falling screaming into what had been Wonderhome, a place of Dark fertility and life, and burnt it out to become a sterile realm of the Dead. I think that there were lots of pre-existing, disparate sun deities - light disks or orbs directly overhead the cities (holiest places in this culture), obscuring the view to any higher reality without piercing sight magics. But your theories are right at home here. Keep presenting them, there are lots of previous truths to be explored in the heavens. The composite that is Orlanth is rather well explored by the many names and facets that are recognized by the Heortlings alone, and if you ask other hill barbarians like the Sylilans or Fronelan ones, they will have several names nobody in Dragon Pass has heard in generations, and are ignorant about other names that are self-evident in Kerofinela and surrounding lands. It is a bit like the 49 pieces of Nysalor, and the 50-something pieces that were brought forth to re-assemble Nysalor in one Lunar project. There are pieces of Gbaji mixed in in those ingredients, and nobody can know if all 49 pieces of Nysalor are present. Everybody knows, though, that the piece they themselves contributed is genuinely Nysalor and definitely not Gbaji.

I think Dwarf constructs generally taste rather unpleasant - like undead, almost, but without the delicious maggots. But the Dwarves themselves are soo intoxicating it makes all the thankless nilmerg-smashing worthwhile. Veering far from the original topic (though it looks like we're pretty much agreed on troll manufacturing), aren't Clay Mostali constructs, too? I had the impression that nilmergs, gremlins and gobblers used the same kind of flesh that was used on the Clay Mostali (which are acknowledged as tasty or at least intoxicating snacks). Not quite so sure about the Jolanti stone creatures - their stone might be more tasty than normal stone, but that's really comparing two brands of vegemite if you are not from Down Under.

Mainly because trolls and heat aren't on good terms with one another. You would need a dangerous Fire-eating Zorak Zorani or a crazed Gadblad smith or an Argan Argar volcano tamer to produce heat. The use of digestive juices on the other hand is a very Darkness approach, and I would place the art of chitin-shaping firmly in their hands, and possibly in the appendages of some of the timinits. The result would be a stiffer form of linothorax, a bronze age version of duraplast. There may be magical brass cauldrons that require no fire beneath them to heat their contents. Most certainly Mostali-built, and possible in troll possession as plunder, but troublesome plunder that will attract Gremlins and Gobblers. Which brings up the question: how do Mostali constructs taste to trolls, and how intoxicating are gremlin or gobbler tartare to the uz? (And while I am at uz culinary appreciation, how does pottery compare to raw clay in taste and nutrients?)

Some of these applications were already discussed in an earlier thread: with troll insect technology mentioned at the bottom of that rather lengthy rant, and if memory serves me right in some of the subsequent clarifications. If you can soften and reshape chitin by boiling it in water (using tubs and hot stones, although those hot stones require secret ZZ or Gadblad magics), you could layer it on already shaped pieces and build form-fitting multi-layer carapace armor. The uz equivalent of Storm Trooper armor. Using special enzymes harvested from maggots by Gorakiki tenders might do the same trick without using heat.

I would think it is the other way around. Normal local temple rites reinforce the "unholy mess" state of the Otherworld where gods get heaped with secondary and tertiary attributes to the point that they don't recognize themselves in a mirror any more, while heroquesters look for the common truths in the myths, as did the Theyalan missionaries before them - the Dawn Age magicians who rebuilt the world and who awakened the less lucky survivors to the new times and new rules. Those Silver Age and Dawn Age ancestors were veritable magical giants, compared to the petty squabbling of modern Gloranthans.

Hahaha. Otherwise known as seeing through all the bullshit. You are both right and wrong in this perspective (except for where YGWV and you are always right). As soon as you apply abstraction to myths, you leave the point of view of the un-illuminated Gloranthans, and reach a point where only accomplished heroquesters may be able to follow your insights. If you then re-translate that abstraction into different concrete actors (as you do below), you create new versions of the myth. YGWV. As far as Godtime is concerned, there is no timeline, there is this body of mythic realities you can enter and walk through, which is the source code for the Gloranthan reality in Time. Much of the source code has been lost in the Greater Darkness, and has been patched over by quick fixes that tie together what doesn't actively move apart. There is one big light visible in the daytime sky. In most of Glorantha, this wasn't visible from the Greater Darkness until the Dawn. There is another not quite that big light visible in the nighttime sky, Lightfore. The arguments whether this is a sun or a planet are still open, but from your take, I would put you in the planet camp. There was an event when multiple big lights met in the sky, resulting in one bigger light and a smaller, more mobile one. That was the Sun Swirl. There were other incidents, like the bridling of Kargzant. And there was one Sunstop within Time, and another that lasted for most of the Golden Age. Timelines are personal or cultural perspectives of their movement through the body of myths. Often, the paths are mostly parallel, and we can talk of a consensus timeline. Occasionally, the paths meander, and touch each other in different points along their progress. The mortal wound Vingkot received was such a case. Or it all happened exactly as all the variations of the myths say it did. There is an archetypal "Murder of the Emperor" event, one of the great turning points or focal points in the Gloranthan body of myth that may manifest in very different shapes and places. Itself, it is a derivate of the First Killing, another such pivotal point. Putting on the RuneQuest Sight, your projection of Zzabur and Vadel on this event is a possibility, and your "Namer" appellation to Vadel gives it a rather strong mythical support. On the whole, you have to do a lot of mythical retconning to arrive at this scenario. Zzabur is depicted as the guarantor for stability in the Brithos myths, whereas Vadel is depicted as the random element, the one shaking things up, which would point to the opposite identifications. But then this assumes that you accept the Zzaburist explanations of the Godtime events, and ignore the other set of Brithos myths that has the Vadeli pre-existing in Brithos, and pushed out by the Malkioni. If you use that set of myths, it all fits - Zzabur kills Vadel and takes over the role as King(maker). Otherwise, using orthodox Malkioni Godtime myths, it doesn't work that well with your "One True Timeline" approach, however. There was Endernef, a huge and successful Vadeli Empire, but that was after Vadel had been slain by Zzabur. And there is this cryptical statement that Godtime is cyclical. Which is sort of shown here, as we have a Brithos/western continent populated (and therefore ruled) by the old Vadeli peoples, then the Malkioni overturning them creating their own empire, which in turn was conquered by the resurging Vadeli empire. Godtime is weird stuff. You can deconstruct it to the archetypes, and then use the archetypes and local color to enter a myth of your choice if you have the RuneQuest Sight, or, if you are an Arkati with cult knowledge from several sides in an incident, you can use that to navigate away from the "one true timeline" conception in myth. Causal history in Glorantha starts with the Conception of Time, aka the Gray Age that steps forth from the (near) total breakdown that was the culmination of the Greater Darkness. Choices made could not be revisted and explored in different directions any more.

But then neither Delecti nor his daughters of darkness are following the Vivamort path that closely. Delecti did steal a spell or divine ability of Zorak Zoran big style. Maybe that was all he could eat. Jeff repeatedly said that Vampire, Draugr, Lich, Revenant and other such "noble undead" horrors are basically one class of monsters, but with individually quite different powers. The cheesy "death symbol" weakness of the vanilla Vivamorti may not be shared by all. Nontraya (the bad, restless death that invaded Esrolia and Prax) had many shapes and followers. (BTW, what happened to Mark Rein.Hagen's vampire essay that was part of the Kickstarter add-ons to the Guide? Might be pertinent here.)

Trolls produce spider silk rather than insect silk. It is one of their most valuable trade goods. The only apiary connection the trolls show are the giant bees of the Vale of Flowers, mainly the domain of the Bee Tribe, the first branch off the First Tribe of Dagori Inkarth. According to Anaxial's Roster, the ants were hit by a curse which made them shrink to almost nothing as they ascended the surface world, crippling the otherwise most powerful of the descendants of Gorakiki. A few ants managed to bypass the curse of shrinking, but gone are the good old times when the worker ant rivalled the mantis steeds. At a guess, the bees were hit with a similar curse. All the insects that rely on flowering plants would either have to have predated the exodus of Hell after it was burnt out by Bijiif, or postdate the Greater Darkness. On the other hand, their maggot forms would have been right a home in the Eat and Be Eaten of the Greater Darkness.

In most cultures (even Heortlings/Praxians) Chaos is one of the Bad Things. Heortlings and Praxians take it to the extremes with their anti-Chaos stance. The Theyalan-influenced Elder Races agree that Chaos is mostly a bad thing, and have specialists to deal with it (especially the trolls), but are somewhat more relaxed in toleration of lesser forms of chaotic taint (e.g. cave trolls in troll society). Naming all the Bad Things as Chaos is a not so lovable trait of the Heortlings and some of the Praxians. Kinstrife is Chaos. Really? It leads to disruption and dissolution of the society the Heortlings cling to, but that's not Chaos. This is an interesting approach, but I think there are several ways to aggregate Solar powers into the ultimate Sun God Yelm Brightface. The "fusion" or Greater Truth of the city gods (or Planetary Sons) is a horizontal one, of equals with individual idiosyncracies. The disintegration of Yelm is a vertical one, into various qualities of the Fire Rune. For Murharzarm (the slain emperor, according to Dara Happan myth) the parts were Sight, Bird, Core, Double, Snake and Corpse - the six souls acknowledged by the Dara Happan humans. (GRoY p.15:) These vertical qualities of spent fire/ashes (Bijiif), lowfires (collected by Enverinus), soulfire (Antirius), bird (Vrimak), semen (the snake BernEel Arashgern) and shadow (taken care of by Kazkurtum) are quite probably present in each of the planetary sons, or at least the three or four major ones high brilliance (bird), soul, and low part (Bijiif) probably are present in each of the precursor deities (and quite likely in all other creatures as well - compare the Making of humans (GRoY p.10) Shapes (Dendara) -> Corpse (Bijiif)? Warmth (Lodril) -> (Core or Sight remain, with Yelm having first choice - see below) Beast (Oria) -> Snake, seed? (BernEel Arashgern?) Bird (Dayzatar) -> Vrimak Shadow (Other Goddess) -> Double (Kazkurtum) Fire (Yelm) -> Core (or perhaps more appropriately Sight)# If this applied to Murharzarm, it should apply to the other, planetary, sons, too. Or indeed assembly in the form that disintegrated as a reaction to the slaying of the Emperor. I cannot help suspect that for the first 40,000 years or so that YS applies to the reign of Yelm, birds or birdish humans were the dominant life form in the sun realm, rather than humans, which apparently got made by the DHan gods as an afterthought, but before the ascension of Murharzarm onto the Footstool as the Emperor on Earth (but elevated into the sky, pretty much like the urban orbs of the eight outlying Decapolis sites). This Emperor Light has not the same function as Raiba(mus), the orb of the Footstool (absent from the Copper Tablets for some reason), but possibly the expression of the Higher Truth that we call Yelm. Or Yelm was the Golden Egg laid by Vrimak ('s female companion). Which would make a nice parallel to the Pseudocosmic Egg that gave birth to Osentalka. The Bright One was of course the missing part of Yelm. Nobody knew that it had been missing, but upon arrival it became glaringly obvious that it had. Perhaps the Higgs Boson of solar interaction that gives the One Sun its gravity. Ah, the unavoidable Occluded perspective. The downside of illuminating insight - doubting it all, losing the picture while studying the frame in detail. The God Learners had very little input into this whole solar shebang - that stuff had been the result of the God Project and the Bright Empire. While Seshnela had suffered under the Shadow of the Bright Empire with that gruesome plague that the agents of Gbaji spread among the dissidents in the kingdom, they had seen little if anything of the shaping of the joint solar/Emperor truth from the far from complete fragments that had been collected by the solar cultural heroes (like Jenarong, Vuranostum, Avivath, the Star Seers of Yuthuppa, the Ten Princes and especially Khordavu, and his scribe Plentonius, the visionaries joining the Dorastan Council, especially Estorex and Palangio) and all the input of the Theyalan Lightbringers who had done the same, across species. All the Jrusteli did was plunder the libraries that promoted the synthesis of the Theyalan learning and the Pelorian factors that had merged into a single body of knowledge and perceived Truth in the Bright Empire, whether as the ruling deity or as the evil emperor one had to rebel against. In their enmity, the breakers of the Council participated in building the joint truth with those they fought against.

As this pre-dates GRoY it is possible that Greg later changed his mind, but I think that he would have been aware when later surfacing the idea of Yelm spiltting into Bijif etc. that this would make Yelmalio one of the gods created at that point. Anitirius would seem a fair stab at the correlation from what GRoY tells us. KoS predates any published information on the slayer (destroyer, dismemberer, chainer) of Umath, although the name Jagrekriand gets dropped. We get Yu-Kargzant, but no explanation other than the identification with the sun, and a Grazer structure pretty similar to the long form RQ3 Yelm cult that no culture I know of is fit to worship as written. Genertela Box mentioned the orbs above the metropolises and names them as sons of Yelm, but not as planets (or even Middle Sky entities). Where we get Alkor the Green, IIRC, Raiba(mus), and Yuthu. There doesn't seem to be the concept of the Planetary Sons yet. Tolat and Annilla are twins, not parts of an octuplet. Both the Grazer sun and Elmal appear to be a lot less "one deity" than they appear to be "one stellar body". And when I played in Greg's Blue Moon troll tribes Hero Wars (or possibly HQ1) game about 10 years later, basically any of the Planetary Sons of Yelm except Shargash and Kargzant was claimed as a precursor of the moon by the Lunar Empire. To me, there appears to be some evidence that the Decapolis shown in the Copper Tablets really had 9 sun gods hovering above the city, each obscuring the One Sun God above. (The tenth city was the celestial city high above...) In that sense, there were the Many Suns way back in the Golden Age, with the One Sun above almost a mystical concept. So, what happened if you moved away from the city with its ziggurat (or mountain spire, or...)? Until you came into the territory of the neighboring city, the sun would be above you towards the direction of your city, and that direction would change rather abruptly once you passed the barrier into the next city's territory, as that city's sun would shine above. The Silver Shadow everywhere. Once you left the civilized places, things got unruly and wrong. The sun would sit in the wilderness on a moutaintop, or on the father of all trees, or... I wonder where (and whether or how) those Dara Happans would have perceived Entekos in that scheme.

In case of Scorpionmen, not really - they are of Chaos and Darkness. Timinits are rather enigmatic - they don't worship any deities or greater spirits, and they don't tell much about their origins. Apparently they were friendly to and even integrated into the Jrusteli society, and also spread to Kumanku and Umathela in that period. The Timinits of modern Jrustela don't seem to remember such a period. We only know about the Imago stage of the Timinits, and lack information about their larvae. Larvae usually are the embodyments of Darkness - their lives are about eating and satiating their ever remaining hunger, and about growth.

How do Orlanth Dragonfriend and Orlanth Dragonslayer reconcile? They are two separate forms of the same deity, incompatible subcults. The god manifested in his respective heroes (Obduran and Ingolf for Dragonfriend, Alakoring for Dragonslayer). For a while, Orlanth tread both paths at the same time. (On the issue of dragonfriends, I don't think that Isgangdrang or Lorenkartargan/Labrygon bothered much if at all with maintaining Orlanth worship. Isgangdrang still appears to have clung to storm mastery, as I think that Drang the Diamond Storm Dragon really was Isgangdrang manifesting all the dragon powers his supporters gave him access to.) Elmal rejects his vengeful and hateful brother(s). Like Shargash. Which is a sentiment most Yelmalios share, I suspect. And yes, at the same time another aspect, Antirius, does his utmost to keep the Fire Tribe together and bound to its former principles. Against the resistance of Shargash and presumably others as well. Antirius finds himself in the role of the humble (if high) servant of others, too, even while granting the imperial authority. There are intermediate forms, such as in Orlanthi clans which have Yelmalio as one of their minor or even major deities. The Tarshite clans around Goldedge or the Alda-chur clans and the Dinacoli are like that, and never were Elmali like the Heortland-descended Runegate clans or others which lost some of their Elmali population to Monrogh's new slave overlord state of Vanntar in the middle 1500s. Constant harrassment, unfair treatment when it comes to ruling the clan, permanently being cast into the enemy roles in the clan heroquests, which doesn't really help gain personal advancement from those (unlike their ritual opponents, the Orlanthi). Then comes Monrogh with the promise "you all will be lords, and bondaged Kitori will work your fields under your supervision." Sounds pretty convincing to me, in contrast.

The Foreigner's Wedding (really the Beren story than the Elmal story, but so what) is a huge difference to Yelmalio (still husbanding Ernalda whenever she graces him with her presence) On the whole, there is one problem I have with the Yelmalio description, and that is his birth in the moment the Emperor was slain. That's true for Antirius, but not for the Planetary Son of the Southwest, who (IMO) contributes (to) the body of Lightfore (there was the sun-swirl). Antirius was the ruins of the previous body of Yelm, still an orb, but on par with those of Shargash and Reladivus/Kargzant or Sedenya/Verithurusa/Lesilla, though initially significantly higher in the sky. Both the moon and the red planet are re-ascenders, while Kargzant never really left the sky (follows Umath from behind, but not necessarily down the impact crater at the White Camp).

That's exactly what did NOT happen to Sheng. Sheng was a very successful mystic until he decided to spurn all his previous efforts to take greatest powers of rulership and destruction rather than liberation. Enlightenment had already been his for decades, he was way further on the course to the ultimate goal. It was the Antigod decision, similar to what Keltari did when he took on the face of Atrilith and twisted it. Enlightenment or Illumination is an entry grade achievement on the path of mysticism. In Lunar mysticism, awakening the seventh soul is what gives you access to the mysteries. Meeting Rashoran, confronting Gbaji are all enlightened activities. Exposing herself fully to Blaskarth, the ultimate Chaos, and meeting the coded insight in "The Lives of Sedenya" (which, as a text, still is a very weak way to convey this) is way beyond simple Illumination. No. He consciously abandoned all his further steps of Enlightenment (though he would have retained some basic level which even a failed mystic cannot give up - to compare with the EWF draconic insight, a brain can be split, but it cannot be unsplit). Ingolf did not become an ordinary Orlanthi after he had sacrificed all of his advances on the path to true dragonhood, he remained a simple awakened dragon thinker who had to purify himself of his entanglements with the world again. Which, to his credit, he appears to have managed when the black dragon came for him, transporting him to a realm rather far on the path to the draconic existence he sought. Some people describe that state as a draconic Hell. I would describe it as a stage of draconic purification, not the perfect draconic achievement of Obduran, but pretty far on the way, and while it is a strange and for humans unimaginably painful existence, for the advanced mystic it is getting to walk the path for ever more.

As far as I am concerned, 1546 (Sarotar's death) sounds like a good time to have Tarkalor absent from Dragon Pass, in distant Teshnos, laying the foundations for his career as Trollkiller. (He may already have earned the name in the Rubble around 1539/40, though...) The Guide offers dates for Vanntar and Whitewall: 1550 (p.259, victory over the Kitori aided by Belintar, pushing them into the Troll Woods) 1560 (p.247, victory over the Kitori, Whitewall re-established) 1579 (p.189, Sun Dome County recognized) Note that those date aren't contradictions, and apart from recognizing the autonomy of Sun Dome County, none fell into the reign of Tarkalor. 1550 saw the Elmali/Yelmalio take-over of Vanntar and the establishment of the Ergeshi, and that will have taken some preparation. 1560 pushed the remaining Kitori out of the lands south of the Crossline, likely still spearheaded by the Yelmalians who may have needed more serfs. In 1579 he finally has the necessary sovereignty to make the deal with Monrogh permanent. (His dalliance with the FHQ obviously started a lot earlier, if you look at the birth date of Saraskos - the person with the most Sartar blood in him of his generation, from both sides.)

Sounds like the power of harmony, where the image and the original are the same. And the mirror image may very well be temporary reality rather than just a reflection, so the demon may have backed off itself.

How does that gel with is one cosmologically relevant victory over Chaos when he liberated the Sky (or rather the Middle and Upper Air) of Sky Terror? The Dara Happan records may have a gap, given the domed period of the later Lesser Darkness, but this event should have fallen into the time after the dome had been broken open. They may also not have bothered to discern between father and son. ("I thought the Red God had chained him?" "Apparently too much escaped.") According to the Copper Tablets, the stars could be seen as the lesser siblings of Umath or the planetary son who exited the visible sky through that opening. All stars, even Pole Star or constellations like Stella Draconis or Lorion, emerged from Stormgate, according to the Copper Tablets. All of that with Yelm still high in the sky, only the extant lesser suns (and moons) in disarray and motion. Shargash is clearly exempted from the role of a lesser sun, but Kargzant/Reladivus(/a) is the main planetary god roaming the sky without going to Hell. When Orlanth slew Sh'Hakarzeel (sp?), the constellation had clearly arrived in the celestial river, and the green star had been joined to the orange stars of the intruder. The Dara Happans may not have witnessed the dragon-slaying directly (probably hidden by a huge cloud of dust), but they witnessed the celestial event. Shargash, Kargzant and probably Verithurusa would have been in the sky, as would Yelm and Dendara/Entekos. The main difference being that the first went to explain what had been going on in the Sky since the Dawn (although only after disrupting the normal service for an unknowable while) while the later one brought a new object into the post-Dawn sky. The sky as we know it, with the stars behind the big sun (at noon), is the result of how Umath's approach to the Emperor went. There wasn't yet a celestial river, although Lorion's ascent into the sky may have started with Umath's birth, and only later greatly aided by the Flood. The stellar dragon was in the sky when Orlanth slew the Mover of Heaven in Dragon Pass, leaving the spine (but not the head, unless the one above The Dragon Pass (across the Dragonspine) was it, but it doesn't seem to fit the vertebra (unless we are talking Stegosaurus proportions here), and helped define the River outside of the City. But when we talk about the little sun, are we always talking about the southeastern planetary son, the orb above Saird?