Joerg

No, but the art has to be redrawn with a lot less textile.

If you don't think Nontraya's demon army is special, well that is pretty much all he has. That, and the Unliving Horde. Which is bound to be massive. But I am not so much thinking about the master undead but about his major agents, who would be party fodder. In case of doubt, lend them a few torturers of the dead to boost them. Some of them may be more of the vampiric kind (psychic ones, maybe), whereas others should resemble lich or similar "high level undead" familiar from that other game. He is able to work on a 'non-volunteer crowd' mostly by whipping them into action with his horde of demons. So, in your opinion, the majority of the Unliving Horde are regular dead who just don't have the luxury of having arrived in their prospected afterlife? Nontraya's role in that myth is basically a re-run or parallel to Death being thwarted by Tada burying Eiritha alive, which has made me wonder whether there are common myths for Nontraya and Humakt (i.e. heroplane acts performed by heroes in either deity's name). True. That's where Illumination kicks in, before the transition is made after an offer that can't be refused. Or some kind of body-change. Wait, what exactly was Belintar's nature?

According to your idea of "countermagic field compatibility", it should. If it doesn't, that disproves that excuse for not using the rules for CM when casting a Shield spell on an existing CM. The whole issue with divine spells "acting like CM" when they clearly don't (no 1 point interval, won't evaporate unless dispelled) makes me wish they had found a different phrasing back in RQ1 and 2. And it is clear to me, from the rules of CM, that there is no compatibility check for the spirit spell. There is one for the Shield spell, and even in that case, the CM has to be stronger than the shield to take effect. No stacking of a 1 MP CM with a one point Shield for an effective 4 MP spell protection. On the whole, these spells are badly described, and have been for ages. There is no reason but "game balance" for disallowing any combination of CM, Protection and Spirit Screen or Shimmer in in-world magical theory, or is there? Are these aura-altering spells, and a person or item can only have one aura? If that would be the case, then Shield would be on top of that, on the outside of the aura. (At least that's what the name of the spell suggests.) But then what about Berserk and Suppress Lodril? Are these aura-altering spells, or are they changing the nature of the person inside the aura? And warding would be half a Shield but on area effect. And sorcery wouldn't interfere with the aura, but with the essence of the target? That would narrow down the aura to a Spirit Plane emanation of the creature or object that extends beyond its physical material. In that case, with a proper mezcal, I wouldn't be hallucinating, but for the plural of worm, I would be beyond delirious. Even cross-eyed vision only doubles the number of dead grubs in the booze.

Lots of lesser Lhankor Mhy cultists (not sure whether this includes lay members and associate cultists) form the rest of the literate class in Heortling society (and presumably in Esrolian society, too). But then you don't need to be able to read yourself in order to value book knowledge, as long as you can afford hiring a librarian who will read them to you and who will be able to research them. You need to be wealthy to have one. Issaries doesn't have libraries, but the cult may have registers and archives. And collections of letters, diplomatic as well as mercantile, and possibly letters analyzing these letters for more diplomatic or mercantile endeavors. In other words, primary and secondary sources for research sages. Travelogues like Ottar's (Othere's) and Wulfstan's might be found in Issaries collections, too. But then, a decent library that is not a great temple or a royal library is likely to be of similar word count than the total of printed Glorantha material (for a greater private library one copy of each edition, each language), possibly with the same amount of information duplication, too. That amount of text can lead to lots of derivative writing or discussion, as proven by (almost? already? When did the Bell Digest take off?) thirty years of online presence and 45 years of fanzine and magazine coverage (with significantly lower word count), not to mention private letters or mails discussing the stuff.

Let me ask you how you handle Countermagic and Berserk. Do they stack? If they don't, can CM3 take effect to spells from non-chaotic sources while the doubled CM2 effect works on spells from chaotic sources? Can they co-exist at all? Next Suppress Lodril, which works selectively against fire worshippers. How (if at all) does this combine with CM? If you wear a CM4 inside a Warding 4, what spells are you protected from? 5 point spirit spells won't be caught by the warding, but will activate the last use of your CM and evaporate along with it, if they don't stack on one another. If they do stack, you're pretty safe from most sane magics. That doesn't stop Countermagic from doing its job (in case of stronger spells, evaporating trying to do so) before the Shield (or Berserk) can even take effect. Other spells (like Suppress Lodril) have a targeting function, but the spirit spell CM does not. Part of the problem is the different behavior between the CM-like effects that Rune Spells have (less fickle, but one point above the spell already gets through, leaving the lower barrier intact) and the spirit spell with its hysterics. I'll have to check whether RQ3 had the same double standard as RQ2 and RQG which have roughly identical wording. And it is inconsequent, too (quoting the RQG rules example) : Erm, no? Because a 2 point spell is within the blockade range of a Countermagic 1 (which is a one use spell by design - only a CM 3 or stronger has a chance to survive a first encounter with any one point spirit spell. A CM2 will block a 1 point rune spell boosted with 1 MP while evaporating. A Shield 1 won't block that combo, but remain in action. So Berserk or Suppress Lodril are compatible with CM, too (though Suppress Lodril only if you aren't a fire worshipper)? And Warding doesn't react to CM being cast across it? Lots of potential cans of worms I can avoid simply by adhering to the description of the Countermagic spell without making a subsequent casting of Shield an exception. That's along the line of the "Suppress Lodril" stuff I mentioned above, and opens ever new containers from the possession of Pandora.

Who says they have to? There are numerous examples of the same entity being magically approached through multiple names, with some differences. Nontraya has command of his talokan demons, who sound like a pretty different bunch of beings than Vivamorts normal tactics. I guess that's ongoing "trauma" from the Elmal/Yelmalio identity hiccup. Command over underworld demons isn't anything that special - Ethilrist can do such a trick, too, and has a small zoo of them (the Hound, the Diokos Horse demons, the Black Cloak goblins). I don't get any particular hint of 'nobility' from Nontraya. He commands a horde of vicious demons. Undead who retain a functional sapience are generally regarded as the nobility of undead, compared to the mindless zombie or skeleton masses, or even your run of the mill ghoul. "Noble undead" does in no way imply gentleman behavior, land ownership, inherited wealth or inbreeding. You'd find that in undead nobles, but that's another topic. He opens the door to the Underworld, but that doesn't mean the dead are all his minions. No, the normal dead are outside of his reach, he requires special rites now to make the dead his own. At least after Heort and others (even Vogarth, who built a dam) separated the Living from the Dead at the onset of the Silver Age. Nontraya is something like the shadow of death, a missionary of his state of being willing and able to work on a non-volunteer crowd while accepting volunteers, and probably giving them plum assignments. Take a look at the Bat feeders for how such an approach works. Prior to the Silver Age, I think that the dead could be approached by him, too. Whether comparatively fresh ones can on the holy days of the walking dead I cannot say, but an occasional case would sure give a couple of scenarios worth of storylines. IMO it is Nontraya who came to Prax and was tricked by Tada, but that would make him an evil that was not tainted by Chaos (yet). Humakt and Eurmal slaying Grandpa Mortal released him, and the subsequent deaths made him follow that stream of subjects to their source, but that's a Lesser Darkness event, not part of the Chaos Wars. His confrontation with Ernalda (after the one with Eiritha, or was it the same?) marked one onset of the Greater Darkness. (The Spike imploding obviously marks another one, courtesy of High King Elf and other non-Chaotics.) It is part of Ty Kora Tek's role to send such back to where they belong.  When the individual in question is officiating for TKT, there may be some problems with the proper procedure. And the time-tested precedent of assassination of such characters runs into unprecedented problems...

Not a straw man at all in connection with Berserk. Once you're under the influence, you have no free will left to cast protective spells on yourself or anyone else. If you can stack your Berserk with a hefty CM, that's one worry less to ignore while under the influence.

I still have some trouble giving Nontraya the exact same powers as the Vivamort write-up (and that extends to me procrastinating about writing the final confrontation in the Norinel crypt between Norinevra's heirs and Norinevra's undead foe whose binding was dissolved upon her death). The Nontraya undead surely is what other settings (e.g. Tekumel) call the "noble undead", an undead retaining much of their former personality and abilities in an altered, non-living body. Nontraya turns living people into undead minions of his, but there is no hint at all that an exchange of blood is involved, rather some soul-ripping in a modified Sever Spirit way. Any other powers like "inheriting" powers his victims had when they were living aren't described anywhere, and I am not quite sure that Nontraya needs them. On the whole, Nontraya is pretty much Humakt without the staying dead. There's also the question whether Nontrayans are limited in their movements in the open from Dusk till Dawn. Also, being an Esrolian phenomenon, there are bound to be a lot of ancestors of the Esrolians in his ranks of minions, not just from the Greater Darkness, and these may plague their (direct, or their siblings') distant offspring when tending to their honorably (but annually returning) dead ancestors. Worse, they may gain entry into otherwise protected houses when mingling with their truly dead kin and being invited in, wearing a layer of magical detection protection, or having achieved illumination. There might even be an illuminated undead Grandmother or two in the council of Grandmothers ("so weak of body that she requires lots of magic to move about, but still sharp of mind"). Think about the Black Ajah paranoia in the Wheel of Time White Tower, and apply it to the government of Esrolia.

It doesn't affect the casting of the Shield spell other than it must be stronger than the CM to take effect at all. In your version, you could cast a one point shield on top of a CM 3 or stronger without any boosting, but not a one point Restore Health. Explain. SImple. The Divine effect doesn't get dispelled when a stronger Countermagic is cast, whereas the fragile Countermagic either blocks weaker magic or gets dissolved by equally strong magic (which gets blocked) or stronger magic (which takes effect). Always has been that way. This means that the dissolution-proof divine spell needs to be the basis, and that the CM needs to be stronger (including boosting) than the basis to take effect at all, and it has to be cast second. It makes it logical, which for me means I don't get to deal with rules lawyers claiming similar exceptions for whichever spell they feel to sneak by a CM-protection to boost or heal a character. CM is a fickle spell. Most players I know go for Protection for themselves anyway, rarely spirit screen, and reserve CM shenanigans for enemies. Probably my player experience varies. For the Coutermagic not to perish on the successful casting of a stronger Shield and for it not blocking a Shield cast on it, I want that clarification in the description of Shield and any other Divine spell that offers a CM effect, like Berserk. (There may be more.) Otherwise, rules as written rule. If you think about finicky, imagine being the victim of a Neutralize Spirit Magic spell cast at you, and trying to get Countermagic up, and vice versa.

Countermagic (or Countermagic stacked with Shield) will still stop healing attempts regardless of the origin, or spells like "Sever Spirit". I'll believe that when the designers say so. Phil put the question up for Jason. Gods being limited in their abilities is a defining element in the Gloranthan setting. I would accept this from a god of magic. Shield comes from more martial deities. And while we're at it, how do Berserk and Countermagic interact with one another? The CM after the berserk obviously has to come from an ally or an opponent, as the berserking character cannot cast protective magic any more.

"Foul spawn of Chaos..." as used by Zero in conversation with the werewolf in Smell of a Rat. Could be used intra-party in sufficienty mixed groups.

Snce neither Spirit Screen nor Protection evaporate when another spell is incoming, the sequence of casting these spirit spells and Shield is irrelevant. Countermagic is different. If it recognizes that the new magic is a Shield, then it doesn't act up? Let me ask you a slight variation. Argrath has a Countermagic 3 on, but his supporter Elusu didn't recognize this, and casts a Countermagic 4 on him. What happens? IMO the CM4 fails, but evaporates the CM3, too. Now why again should a Shield 2 behave different from the CM4?

Duplicate... this is a bug in the forum software that doesn't clear the editor when the post appear on a later page.

No, they don't. They say: There is no indication that the shield doesn't get thwarted by a powerful Countermagic (eg. a Shield 2 thwarted by a CM 5 or higher). The last paragraph in the Shield rules reads a bit problematic, but might be a clunky wording to support my stance that the shield (which doesn't vanish when overcome by other magic) must be cast first to get the cumulative effect: I read this as "If the Shield is cast on a target already protected by CM; the CM would disappear before the Shield takes over, provided that the Shield is strong enough to overcome the CM." Do you have a better interpretation of this?

That's the text I was referring to from the Glorantha sourcebook, p.62. Nice to learn where it was previously published, though. It is verbatim in the Sourcebook. What is outdated, and why?

Agreed to some extent, but: It's more than just "work", it is being. Even though it is a temporary change we are talking about, these red-dyed women stop mothering etc. for the time of their Vinga-hood. If there is a wapentake, they had better bring warriors' gear, or they have no vote. Etc. Huh? Barntar is the Earth Husband without too much of that stormy nonsense - still an able defender and dragonslayer, but the one returning home as soon as that drought problem is resolved. His role is about as un-female as you can get in the vicinity of the Earth rune. I still don't see a red-haired woman having a baby slung before her chest while wielding shield and spear. She will have given childcare over to her in-law females (if patrilocally married) or to her mother and sisters (if matrilocally married). Sure. In case of doubt, the player can claim the "One Unique Thing" every time. (Although I'd hate to GM the party with each of the player characters being the one and only D&D Paladin/D&D Magic User etc. in Glorantha...)

They never stopped using axes, IMO, axes being the tools of death wielded by earth. Earth defenders are part of the aldryami defense array. Plant tenders regularly use copper adzes, as per bestiary.

I think that the Uncolings spend most of their time in beast shape, and only take on their human shape on occasions of the great Porent meet-up. Their habitat in Porent is way too small to nourish that amount of humans from reindeer herds - look at the population densities in reindeer herder cultures. Likewise, the less militant herbivore beast Hsunchen like the Damali are likely to switch to their beast form to escape foes. Pralori, Alekki and the Yak hsunchen that hold out against their Pentan neighbors are hardly different from (pre-Compact) Praxian beast riders, however. I beg to differ. There a number of single sex races about - unicorns, satyrs, minotaurs, broo on the male side, nymphs and elurae on the female side. This is a magical nature unknown by any Hsunchen. Broo used to be the goat equivalent of minotaurs. No idea whether there ever was a ram equivalent, too, and if there used to be, what became of it (a mating victim of the broo?). The "Chaos Array" is a weird collective of clearly chaotic entities and a number of cases which are evil but outside of any Storm Bull detection, like Gark the Calm and Nontraya. The sex pit initiation challenge is a weird one, especially coming from Greg who has lived through the Summer of Love. Speaking of initiation trials in general, in modern terms they are a PTSD-inducing experience that shapes the future career of the subject. That goes for fraternity rites and military boot camp, too - a form of inoculation, a confrontation with a (barely) controlled amount of fear and helplessness that is meant to prepare for future situations of similar nature, but able to break people the bad way. That weird "the beast rune resembles a dragon's scale" bit. The EWF researched all manner of ways to sidestep the dragonewt way to reach at dragonhood, including a research in the wyrms that appear to have been created in a similar manner as the ancestry of Seri-phy-Ranor, at the same time. (Really makes you wonder what went on in second century Dorastor even before they chanced on the Pseudo-Cosmic Egg, but maybe the presence of that egg already made itself felt.) Malkioni reports are notoriously one-sided in this regard. The worst Chaos curses within Time were created by Malkioni (who had been returned from Hell). Cruelty is a fact of life in Glorantha, each and every culture practices it. IMO the Hykimi of the West have a Malkioni admixture (culturally, at least) caused by the Vadeli uprising that ended the Kachisti empire which covered their lands. The Serpent Beast Society might be a result of such Malkioni influences. Look at the 15th century White Bear Empire and its reliance on the God of the Silver Feet, the Speaking God. Snodal and his syndics basically killed the communication which enabled the cooperation between the various Hykimi types. The Serpent Beast Brotherhood would have required a similar unifying common language. It is interesting that the civilized neighbors of the Malkioni in Pelanda were unable to discern between Kachisti, Waertagi and Vadeli blue meanies other than by the time of their appearance and slight changes in hue. There is also the phenomenon of the "not quite Hykimi any more" civilizations of the west - Pendali, Enerali and Enjoreli. While they share their ancestral deities with Hykimi (Enerali with Galanini, Pendali with Basmoli, Enjoreli with lost bull Hykimi that got Theyalanized at latest under the Bright Empire), they are already something different, supporting urban populations of Earth Folk beyond the mere temple cities the Serpent Beast Brotherhood had (like the city of werewolves destroyed in the Gbaji Wars).

And neither with the broo party of the unicorn guy... (Couldn't resist)

Sure about the "on top of" bit? Shield and Countermagic stack, but the nature of Countermagic doesn't check what magic is cast against it. The stacking has always worked only in the right sequence, as far as I am concerned. House rule vs. house rule, I guess.

It is Countermagic which is acting up. Shield is your steady and undisturbed friend that may make casting harder but not impossible, while Countermagic is the hysteric "I'll block you or I'll implode" nervous wreck of a spell. The deity has no control over Countermagic, hence Countermagic has to be the last spell to be productively cast on the character in question. Neither Shield nor Countermagic have any Friend/Foe detection running and act blindly against helpful spells and agains harmful ones. You can't expect your deity to sweat all the details, that's your job.

Did Thorloss visit Locsil and the nearby Ingareens? One of Dormal's companions was a troll, and "stole" the secret that had helped discover and that was freely given to everyone on the coasts, however despicable they may have been (Alatan scum, Vadeli, cannibalistic Yggites). The only place where Dormal found no takers was Ramalia (which may have weakened his magic).

I thought that the best way to defeat the living Devil (Wakboth) is through dropping a few cubic kilometers of Truestone on him. The Devil overcome by the Ritual of the Net (Kajabor) was already dead, but still active in the Underworld. The LBQ is a complicated variant of the Summons of Evil which requires to summon (or indeed, cross the line and bring it back) a lesser evil to overcome a greater one. The ones performed within Time appear to have summoned the Devil (and not necessarily Kajabor, but the morally evil one) as their side effect. So really, the quote by Argrath should be amended to "Every six hundred years, some witless Orlanthi hero summons the Devil through a Lightbringer's Quest, and almost breaks the world getting rid of it again." And that's the real victory of Gbaji.

Sandy used to theorize that dragonewts could create new eggs by involvement of all the stages. Which does provide sort of a mate for the IK.

I never cease to be amazed by the heights of concise arguments here... Feel free to ignore me. The Guide gives us a Silmarillion level collection of the old story data. I would be happier with a Book of Lost Tales level of access to these stories, though I am happy to ignore the later rehashes of the Tolkien estate, and wouldn't go as far with hoary Glorantha documents, either. The name "Naveria" is a title, with the component "eria" clearly meaning "woman". The meaning of "Nav" is obscure. I still think that the concept of the static emperor is Brightface. Whether his myth is limited to Naveria or whether it is paralleled elsewhere (e.g. in the bit about confronting Basko, Molandro and Jokbazi on his ascent in the as hoary Jonstown Compendium tidbit). IMO Brightface is a Change of Cycle myth, not Golden Age, or at least not the one that the God Learner monomyth would recognize. One problem I have with the Monomyth is that it suppresses all earlier cycles of rise and decline. These may be even less solidly remembered than the pre-Gods War fragments. All of Glorantha is a collage or mosaic of mythic fragments, the Hero Planes as much as the mundane world, where the Gods War has destroyed much earlier detail and richness. The spider silk reconstruction is what we have to work with, but it is just what could be salvaged, far from what went on. Entekosiad is the one Stafford Library document which gives hints at some of these earlier cycles, which makes it the richest and at the same time the hardest to parse of the library pieces.