Joerg

André Jarosch prepared one such diagram for this year's booth of Chaos Society.

So the Theyalans see Veskarthan as a shaper only when in bondage, but as a destroyer when released? Or do they acknowledge that his anger derives from being kept in bondage? He appears cheerful enough when entering Umath's camp as the first guest, probably on his way to his next date with the Land or Earth. Quite likely on his way to fathering Quivin? (I notice that the genealogical circular table in Heortling Mythology has Kero Fin not only as mother of Orlanth but as the mother for his brothers, too - p.11. Also including Urox - a deliberate "contradiction" to the God Learner statement in Cults of Prax that Mikyh was Storm Bull's mother?) Are there less explosive or more tamed aspects of Veskarthan that are worshipped/embodied by the everyman of Caladraland? (Fire) Spear warrior, Shaper (obsidian knapper, spear maker, builder), slash-n-burn farmer? And what about the women? Veskarthan is joined to Gata, the ancient earth, older than Asrelia (overall fertility, maternity, bounty, but also primeval desires and demands), or to Asrelia (bounty inside the Earth), or to Esrola (bounty out of the Earth). Do we get scary priestesses or sorceresses in league with earth powers more ancient than what the Esrolians deal with? Joined to the Fire Within the Earth in an eternal "embrace" (euphemized), and probably irritated when bothered too much? Does anybody regard Veskarthan as the fiery seed of Aether still sloshing around in the Earth? Umath's unborn brothers? The entire concept of the erupting earth is both phallic and hermaphrodite. Volcanoes are phallic wombs. Basalt cones left standing are one thing, calderas send a very different message. GaLodril.

Yes - that's exactly what forms the myths about the British, and much of their (and the US) national identities. Look at the impact of those reconstructed myths in the late 19th and early 20th century, all the way up to Achtung! Cthulhu. Look at your own ancestral identity and how you present it to your children. The Heortlings understand themselves as descended from those of the Vingkotlings who made it to the Dawn. These people aren't Heortlings. They weren't Vingkotlings, but something else - people of Hanoro? Ok, so the Silver Age survivors huddled in a cave under Solung plateau, forgetting much of what went on before, then "rediscovering" their ancestry. The God Learner C&A got successful here because there are gaps in the ancestral knowledge that could be filled, but it also was well integrated into what was known or rediscovered. We are told these people are culturally Orlanthi. I'll grant you that they are Theyalan and Kethaelan, but if they are Orlanthi, then the Pelorian Lodrili are, too, unless we find a good ancestral position to say there is a substantial difference. I've been rereading "Esrolia - Land of 10k Goddesses" a bit, and I find a strange mixture that puts the Grandmothers both in a Green Ageish context and as a relatively recent (Sword and Helm Saga) development. The Three Bad Men include a chronoportated Kodig in what I would call an early Golden Age myth. (Or maybe the special power of Kodig Vingkotsson is that he was a re-incarnation of one of the Three Bad Men?) Once again, the Caladrans have forgotten a lot, but they have a lot more to forget than the humans who derive their myths just from the Downland Migration.

I still wonder why the Fuel within the Earth is mixed up with cults about the Fire within the Earth. Asrelia's bounty? Another minor concern is the origin of the Caladralanders. Are they descended from the union between Vestkarthan and Asrelia/Esrola, or the lowfires and the earth handmaidens (as listed with more names that anyone can remember in Thunder Rebels)? I think they are classified under Durevings, along with other Golden Age folk of the lands north of the Spike met in the downland migration.

Back in RQ3 rituals were presented as a common approach to magic that isn't done on the fly, by a single person. Rituals are involved in starting a heroquest, in worship/veneration/ecstatic communion, and even in preparing a charm. Basically, in all advanced forms of magic. Every Praxian male learns the ritual of the Peaceful Cut. It is clearly a spirit magic - a release of the spirit for rebirth - but it requires knowledge and skill. You don't just take a charm and off goes the spirit. The sentence "sorcery is something you know" is a vast simplification. Just reading a grimoire won't activate a spell, you need to direct the energies to effect a spell, through the energetic channels and nodes that the grimoire can direct you to. You draw on that Otherworld, draw it in, let it build up around you. In case of the specific summoning of a Founder, you draw close the spiritual realm of that founder. The specific limitation "must be a khan" sounds like a theist concern. (And no, I don't think it is a question of having the regalia in order to be able to summon - or rather invite - the Founder.) And the final element still is the personal negotiation between the Khan and the Founder to convince the Founder to join his tribe.

There are numerous waves of pirate/emigrant fleets emerging from Ygg's Isles. The natives there are sailors by necessity and kept destitute by Loskalmi design. The magic of creating the wolf spirit figureheads appears to be passed on among the Yggites. They can use the lumbering outposts on the fringes of Winterwood for preparing those fleets. Gothalos in the northern Jrusteli archipelago is an Yggite stronghold which doesn't manage to do much piracy because the Orange Guild dominates the waters. I think that the guild employs Yggites for their navy without giving them command of their ships. In the Pasos Isles, Ginorth has a sizeable colony of Yggites, and probably its share of wolf pirate ships. Their Luathan neighbors keep official fleets away. Threestep Isles have the next largest sedentary Yggite population since way before Harrek joined them. The local wolf pirates probably are only 50% Yggites, with many coastal entrepeneurs in brigandy joining up with smallish fleets after falling foul of coastal navies ransacking their hideouts. Upon acceptance their ships are retrofitted animated figureheads. I think that the Pamaltelan branch of the Wolf Pirates is instituted by Harrek in Laskal around 1622. They will raise local crews while Harrek continues his circumnavigation and Genertelan adventures.

I wonder if Hrestolism wasn't a return to the opportunity for everyone to participate in the philosophical process of deriving insights from the logics. The six ancient tribes of Danmalastan defined themselves by a certain intellectual pursuit - writing, building, sailing, speaking, discovering and cogitating. It doesn't look like the castes were present in these tribes from the start. And even if they were, in the ancient world (or more precisely, in ancient Athens) the lowly farmers and cobblers could be highly regarded (or despised) philosophers. A man was expected to contribute to philosophical debates as much as he was expected to contribute to the polis. Those who didn't were idiots (selfers). The Rokari wizard caste doesn't seem to like it when warriors or serfs pursue original thought or philosophy. They may be acutely aware that there aren't any great wizards like Halwal or Yomili around any more, even though they appear to have the chain of veneration control at the heart of their power and pursuits. The (old) Hrestoli society appears to have a widespread basic literacy - enough to trail the scripture with your index finger. (I'm not so sure about the New Idealist Hrestoli degree of literacy, they may have reserved the the Rs (reading, writing and (a)rithmetics) for the knightly curriculum.) I don't think there was a concept of serfs in Malkioni lands, although the barbarian lands (like Rindland or Slontos) probably reserved such a status for the indigeneous non- or not-quite-Malkioni. The only grassroot participation the Rokari want is in the chain of veneration, the magical support of their wizards. Now compare the vibrant intellectual exchange and debate in the 13 colonies of Jrustela in the years before the arrival of the Abiding Book, and the enthusiastic popular reception of that scripture, and the various schools about how to approach it. I doubt that the stodgy linealist Hrestoli of the southern provinces of the Kingdom of Tanisor named Seshnela retained much of that spirit after observing most of their neighbors being drowned, but they appear to have been a haven of liberal thought compared to the strictures of the Rokari dictate. I wonder where the Pithdarans stand (and stood). They have always been proponents of an ascetic pursuit of the philosophy, and the last defender of pre-1049 orthodoxy was Yomili. Practically all modern Malkioni schools in Genertela can nod towards Halwal, Yomili's contrahent, for formulating their stances against the God Learners (foes of Yomili as well). Yomili was a staunch (old school) Hrestoli but loyal to the imperial crown. I wonder where the Pithdarans stood in the battles of Bailifes. From the Seshnela color plate, we can infer that they now follow the Rokari school. However, they are located in Nolos, which has managed to remain outside of the king's direct influence for the time being.

If you look at the possible subjects of Tapping, you may find that the restrictions are mostly directed against tapping fellow human beings. The Tapping of animals, crystals, spirits or the land would be a different topic, and I feel that this would be a common practice for sorcerers in the field, away from the congregations that support the wizards at home.

Knecht also means able-bodied man, and as Landsknecht means Man-at-Arms. The German term for knight is just like the Latin/French/Spanish one simply rider or horseman. Looking at the Malkioni innovation of riding warriors, mixing prerogatives of the talar and horal castes, the connotation of horse warrior these languages bring are spot on. Persian or Indian mounted warrior nobility fit that same bill, too, and date back into earliest Iron Age. I am not sure that researching these terms linguistically will further our Gloranthan understanding. True, it is Germanic in the use for ecclesia. Actually, church or Kirche or kirk are derived from Greek kyriakon "belonging to the Lord", which appears to have been used by the greek-speaking early communities around the Mediterranean. The early Germans didn't really have a concept for a sacred enclosed building (even though they kept using the megalithic graves and sacrificial stones - no stone circles on the Germanic lowlands). They had places of sacrifice, often using inspiring natural features (trees, boulders) or inherited from earlier cultures, possibly in an enclosure. Now where have we seen such a description before? Right, the Orlanthi. But back to the Germanics - they had basically no contact at all with the Greek language, so there would be no pre-Christian opportunity to adopt the term kyriakon.

Sure - why should one do the latter? The West has been described as Materialist (Cults of Terror) Monotheist (RQ3 Gods of Glorantha) Kingdom of Logic (various). Of these three, only the Monotheist label has a tendency that could be read as Christian. Or, in a Bronze Age context, Jewish. Earliest explicit mention of the Malkioni West appears to be in the Cult of Issaries in Cults of Prax, the Garzeen subcult tying in with Fenela, sister of Hrestol. Curiously using materialism in the negative: We do inherit the term knights for Hrestol and subsequent Malkioni. This could look Christian. But then, e.g. Charlemagne's stories tell about Saracen knights. So does the Saladin myth. And we get pagan knights in the Arthurian legends based on the Welsh originals of those myths. And then there is the rather unique name of church for the various groupings of Malkioni in the RQ3 and subsequent material. The only term I find almost exclusively used in Christian context among these, describing a monotheist organisation of veneration without sacrifices. (There are other, even non-religious organisations like the Scientologists who use this term, too.) Scant evidence for a Christian parallel in the official material. Except in what the readers from a predominantly Christian background make of it.

Straying into the bad old days of 'tis/'taint here... Hunter god of the Dawn Age Heortlings: Siwend looks like another name for Ormalaya, albeit a distinct point is made for archery. We know that Vingkot slew the Grizzley of Grizzley Peak, thereby proving his domination over the storm bear kings of the north. Does this mean that there was no-one following Odayla's ways afterwards among the Vingkotlings or Gray Age Heortlings? I don't think so. I don't see any ursine recovery anytime in the Imperial Age. The Praxians are a culture with a strong proportion of spirit worshippers (besides the Founders/Protectresses and Ancestors). Storm Bull isn't an example for anything but non-conformity, but the point that Waha offers rune magic is telling. I think that Eiritha offers rune magic, too, possibly even more so if worshipped at the Paps. That's what Great Spirits can do (again, as in the times of RQ3 Gods of Glorantha). Someone with RuneQuest Sight might be able to tell whether this is divine rune magic or powerful spirit magic using modes similar to divine magic while being shot down with that magic for being a God Learner. An ability like Spirit Block wouldn't be too useful against such magic, but that's similar to approaching the sun with nothing but weak sun blocker as protection. Ok, so we who were trained to say Great Spirit maybe aren't supposed to do that any more. I am happy referring to the great gods/spirits of the Praxians as giants (excluding Storm Bull, including Genert and his followers), treating them as a separate group of entities from the Storm Tribe fusion of Ernalda's peoples and the Downland Migration and subsequent adoptions of Orlanth or from the Earth Walkers of Peloria carrying that fire component within their earhy giantness. Ultimately all earth points back to the one earth of the Creation Age to Green Age, so there are links of kinship. There is a wealth of Praxian spirit societies that outshines the few ones found among the Heortlings. I have little to no idea what and how exactly the Aramites worshipped in the Dawn Age. All I know is that pigs were involved, and that their heroic leader was the lover of Kero Fin. I know that there were humans that followed the Kitori leadership in worshipping entities of Darkness without getting the conversion into the likes of Ezkankekko, and one remnant of those could be the Torkani of Sartar, a fringe Heortling tribe much like the (lesser) Kitori themselves. Think of the Golden Egg myths/fairy tales rather than the feathered watchdogs. Add a pinch of Swanlake (different white bird, I know, but still). The reality of bird behavior doesn't have to do anything with their projected image, as anyone watching doves at a railway station or city square can attest. My views of Imarja as an enemy deity of Orlanth and Vingkot have been painted by the destructive ways of the Grandmothers of Nochet, but with the recent re-definitions of Illumination I see Imarja as the Ernaldan path to either illumination or (in case of the Grandmothers) occlusion. If a wife or mother-in-law cannot handle a dominant husband doing stupid stuff, mariticide is not and has never been the way of Ernalda. Sending him to Hell by other means (to get his stuff straight again) is ok, though. The murders of Rastagar or Finelvanth or even the Bright Lord of Tharkantus all are major failures which made the world much worse places (if only outside of Nochet). Doing so in the name of Imarja is ironically similar to the story of her descendants killing her (Esrplia p.24). I didn't name Velhara (or Arachne Solara) as the object of a sect of mystics, but as a transcendent entity beyond rune magic and ordinary sacrifice. Still, there are rites, and there is magic in these rites. I do see Imarja as an access to a transcendent entitiy through but beyond primal Earth. As with all illumination, this isn't a good thing to worship paired with ambition or revenge. I have come to think that this is ultimately what the earth sovereignty stuff is about, though. Basmoli are mentioned in the Veldt, as are Men-and-a-half. Both end up in Genert's Garden/Prax. Basmol is killed there. What I don't find is how Basmol invaded Ernaldela. I do buy a fiwan origin of Praxian Basmol. Occam's razor suggests that the routes of the men-and-a-half and of the Basmoli would have been similar from the veldt to Prax. The first agimori to arrive in Seshnela are the Pithdarans, though. And they don't show a marked similarity to the lion warrior bands, do they? They are the civilized version of the Galanini of Ralios, and became Orlanthi only long after their first contacts with the Lightbringer missionaries. I see a distinct parallel between Likita/Basmol/Pendal and Green Lady/Galanin/Eneral. All the way down to serpent imagery. The Enerali maintained their own civlisation of Hrelar Amali as the Gray Age point of civilisatory origin. King Dan's rulership may even have made that period a Silver Age to them. It is during the Gbaji Wars that we find the Orlanthi of Otkorion (?) as tutors for Arkat. I don't know for certain whether these are Enerali or immigrants from council lands through Kartolin Pass, or a crossbred pool of both groups. (And there is the lingering presence of Kacha/isti that can hide among Hykimi, Enerali, or among the populace of the earth temples. To return at least once to the original thread...) So the Harandings, the Aramites and the Mraloti of Ramalia share Mralot or someone related to Mralot as an ancestor? Bisos and the Enjoreli are related? We find three distinct groups of beast shape men - the Hykimi of the Great Forest in the West, the Fiwan of Pamaltela, and the Korgatsu Hsunchen of the Shan mountains and beyond. As it happens, the Hykimi share the Wareran type, the Fiwan the Agimori type, and the Korgatsu Hsunchen the Vithelan type. They do share the same Gods/Great Ancestral Spirits. The Four Original Companions may vary, the extent of draconic manifestation varies (strongly in post-Darudan Kralorela, rather lame in Hykim/Mikyh, and not quite explicit in Amuron). The beast languages spoken by the humans with the same (or very similar) beasts are the same across the continental divides. (We find the almost the same Earthmaker story as among the Fiwan among the Doraddi and the Thinobutans.) If the appropriation of a proper human racial type is a later development than the original two-leg/four-leg alteration (maybe with a humanoid beast form not unlike the cinematic werewolf), then maybe we have these three distinct groups through different admixture of humans of the appropriate racial types. Humans that were around prior to the Storm Age demigod spawn proliferation. (Or we would see Veldang-shaped Hsunchen?) For the Hykimi the Kachasti could be a candidate, or the indigenous earth worshipping humans of Seshna, Ralia etc. (also the source for the Dureving element among the Orlanthi). Such an admixture might also explain the peculiarities like Hykimi cities etc. that we don't find in either Pamaltela or beyond the Shan Shan. For the Korgatsu Hsunchen, we find Allgiver as the shape-defining intervention for the semi-human offspring of Wild Man, with Aptanace defining the proper human appearance. I do wonder how Daruda and the humanoid dragon shape went along with this, though, before we end up with the ancestors of the modern Kralori. No idea where to place the human shapegiver for the Fiwan. From the sixteen types of Thinobutans? From the Agitorani? And what of their cultural inputs? I dare say that the most wizards the Hrestoli create are by birth from the zzabur caste. I don't have names for wizards of Pendali stock, although evil sorcerers/witches do appear. Wizards by conversion? Okay, there are the Vampire Lords of Tanisor. An example of how not to do it. The Jrusteli add Timinit and Pithdaran wizards. The Hrestoli seem to have something like caste adoption upon conversion. My data for Dawn Age Akem is basically non-existant. The Pendali conversion is at first via the Seshna Likita cult, no idea, whether their priestesses were numbered among the zzabur caste. If so, a widespread breeding potential was added to the zzabur caste. I have the (unfounded?) idea that ancient Brithini/Malkioni society might have had a distinctly non-equal distribution of genders, with the Menena caste not necessarily significantly larger than any of the other castes. Bringing in the Likiti may have altered that to 50-50. But the role of women in Brithini and Malkioni society is a different topic altogether. Except that we are talking about the addition of two male deities to the Lightbringers, here. It is always "sons of Malkion".

I used the terms for the three systems recognized by the God Learners. Yes. They are the spirit talkers among the Heortlings, and members of the spirit societies are not separated by clans from cult members performing sacrifices. They do recognize that spirit talkers and rune cultists use different forms of magic. Unless we want to replay the subcultitis of Thunder Rebels and dig out Ormalaya, there is Odayla as the default cult for the bow and trap hunter. I didn't suggest that the Praxians are solely spirit worshippers, only that they are a group of spirit worshippers. The Hendriki see themselves as Storm folk (including Earth). They might see the Fisherfolk at their coast as Sea Tribe folk, and the Caladralanders across the bay as Fire Tribe. The Kitori (including human followers not partial to the deeper secrets) are of course of the Dark Tribe. True, Orlanth possesses conquered magics from the other tribes - the four magic weapons subcult. Apart from a possible keet connection which I really don't want to see, I have come to see the goose as Ernalda's (or rather Greater Earth's) celestial aspect with transcendental insight. A state of illumination. I named Velhara rather than Arachne Solara as the transcendental link for Dragon Pass. At this time we still have the Necklace of Kero Fin, and the Aramites as a human tribe among the Heortlings. There is no Beast Valley yet, but there is the ancient megalithic structure of Wild Temple, and there are certain spirits and creatures of nature going there for their wild magics. Probably no centaurs, yet, at least not in significant numbers. Sentient beasts, nymphs and the like. Actually King Heort, and yes, a Gray Age concern among the Theyalans. A Dawn Age concern for those who received their missionaries in a state of continuing Darkness. I think that the Lightbringers actually separated the Underworld from the Inner World where they spread their news to peoples who had no other pre-Dawn activities. I find no hard evidence for the Basmoli migration from Pamaltela to Seshnela, and I regard the Pendali, Enerali and Enjoreli as home-grown Hykimi cultures who managed to have a Gray Age history. We find several types of Hsunchen in different human racial types - the Damali of Kralorela/Teshnos vs. those of western Genertela, the bat folk of Teshnos vs. Pamaltela, etc., without being given a migration story as explanation. I don't think that Hrestol changed the magic of the wizards of Frowal or Neleoswal significantly. The knights may have tapped somewhat into the pool of magic channeled by the wizards from their congregations by building up congregations of their own, but the wizards remained as caretakers of the magical needs of Frowal and Neleoswal. They lost some magic to Seshna Likita, but this was more than compensated by the conversion of Pendali cities, bringing the Likiti portion of those cities into the fold of their wizardry. Looking at the occupations of Seshnela, we find a consistent association of invaders and hostile beast magics. The colonies Frowal and Neleoswal faced extinction by the Pendali, and later invasions were seen as the same kind of bad. The Vampire Kings of Tanisor were about the only non-beast shaped enemy that faced Seshnela. Earth magics are viewed as beneficient or neutral, while beast magics are seen as aggressive. True, the Seshnegi may have exploited that aggression themselves: I am undecided whether the lion society was emulating the shape changers or whether it was similar to the wolf skin-bearing followers of Argrath in Argrath Saga who had destroyed the Telmori and conquered some of their magic. Do they have beast brothers fighting alongside them (which would be the Basmoli practice, with the humans taking whichever shape is best suited for a situation), or are all their lions shape-changed humans? I see some evidence for lion-slaying hunts as kingship rite among (old) Hrestoli Malkioni, which may have made it into Carmania. This could be a hsunchen- or Odaylan-like self hunt, or it could be the re-enactment of overcoming the Pendali threat as a crown test.

Do the sages really qualify as "having sorcery"? Under the strict three worlds model, a lot of the "mystical martial arts" stuff was considered to be sorcerous in nature. Let's take a look at the Dawn Age domain of what would become the Hendriki, then, where we have Ingareen sorcerers alongside Esvulari blenders, Esrolvuli and other Heortling theism, and Kolating, Odaylan, Kyger Litor, Gorakiki and Praxian animism. What we find first and foremost is a division of magics into the elemental tribes or (in case of the Ingareens) exclusion of the elemental tribes (moon? what are you talking about?). There are mystical or transcendent religions, like Imarja or Velhara, that are subsumed in the Earth sovereignty. People may have realized in dealing with nature or otherworld entities that some of these are better suited to shamans dealing with them, others better suited for godtalkers, and yet others exhibiting strange properties similar to the workings of the sorcerers. That said, shamans are spirit worshippers trained to deal with non-spirits using the shamanic mode of magic, and sorcerers are trained to dominate godlings or spirits, Holy men of Orlanth know how to fight just about anything, and holy women of Ernalda know how to woo just about anything, or how to have ceremonies to banish things. They all concentrate on the individual powers exhibited by an entity rather than a classification. The Theyalan missionaries who came from this culture were inclusive - they didn't stress differences with Hykimi practices when they encountered them, but sought similarities in their stories and the approach to the elemental forces while introducing their mode of sacrifice as a way of dealing with the changed rules of Time. Things like a clear distinction between the Living and the Dead were much closer to the problems of the magicians of the Dawn Age than a distinction of worship modes. The Brithini emigrants of Frowal were faced with the Pendali Hykimi (what we now call hsunchen beast folk) and Likiti (serpent earth temple) magics. There was no notion that combination of Hykimi and Likiti ways would render the hsunchen mode of magic invalid even though the Likiti magic was rather similar to the Ralian Green Lady or Esrolian Ernalda. The Serpent Kings combined the earth magics and the Brithini sorcery without any hesitation but were hostile to the Hykimi beast magics - their magical efforts may have been behind the incompatibility we observe in modern Glorantha.

Nothing official, but here's my two cents. 1) The physical object is the container for the energy flow from the sorcerous realm. A sufficiently advanced sorcerer might be able to hold onto the energy directly, but I wager such an ability will come with a cost. Probably a cost in humanity. 2) Rituals, props, material components all are means to make a magician's life easier. In a lot of spells, these things pull the threshold for succeeding in the spell low enough that a practitioner can manage to set it off.

Are the Four Otherworlds separate? They are. The realm of energies and matter differs greatly from the Godworld or the Spirit Plane. There is no mystical Otherworld, btw. All the four ways of magic address the Ultimate, and apart from the mystics the energies acquire runic flavors through the transcendent runes - and here it matters little if it is the materialist (or rather energetic) view of the sorcerers, the theist view of Great Gods, or the animist view of Great Spirits, holders of the runes. The magic encountered by the mortals of the Inner World is mediated through lesser manifestations of essences, deities or spirits. Is it possible to worship an essence, interact animistically with a deity or sorcerously with a spirit? Yes. Does the entity mind being approached by a let's say variant method? Probably it is not the best mode of approaching the entity, but expect results. Are magical modes miscible? Evidently yes - the Easterners don't seem to have any problems combining worship of the Parondpara with sorcerous spells for everyday magics. Does this mean that the Cults of Orlanth offer sorcery? No. Do they offer animist magic? Some might, others not. Do the Aeolians contact Orlanth? Sure, if strangely. Do they derive sorcerous spells from Orlanth? Not quite. Do they have sorcerous spells for the realm of air? You bet. Do the Warlocks mix modes of magic? Sure. They all are "crazed" by magical insights beyond the normal scope of Orlanthi magics. The easterners probably are living in a daze of enlightenment pouring down on them. The Lunars are insane illuminates, or at least one of the two. The old HQ1 orthodoxy had it that until the Hero Wars, there was no mixing of magical modes - unless you were one of the defiant entities like Storm Bull, Eurmal, the troll gods, Chaos, the Lunars... the list grows long enough to ask why to make exceptions for the few "misapplied" modes. I do endorse Charles' theory. Humans from Danmalastan turn out to be just mortal humans when exposed to the rest of the world without the protection of their magic and their ancestral lifestyle. If they turn to gods to help them through their plight, can they expect to maintain their immortality? No, why should they. So, do I have a problem that we find no sorcerous magic in the cult of Issaries? Not really. He probably traded it away. More seriously, the power of communication is less of what you know (knowing other languages doesn't make you a conversationalist in those languages) but what you do. It is about accepting what your opposite does and says, and replying in a like manner. Having lost their distinctions of caste, the adoption of the theist ways or even Hykimi ways is a logical way out. So, yes, they trade their sorcerous ways for survival. As I said above, the magic outside of the mystic system is channeled through the runes. The Kachasti connection to the Communication rune may well remain. And, if there is an entity of another realm that stands for this rune, contact and communication will be made. Sooner or later.

Does that make me a Riddler?

I have given up on marginalia and use postit stickers instead. They make looking up those passages easier, too.

Kachasti or Kachisti? To me the second version feels like bad spell checking... The Helerings are one of several Storm Age arrivals of warlike demigods whose descendants became mortal humans. According to Revealed Mythologies, the Helerians fought the Waertagi during the Vadeli Wars. They came from the rainclouds, were good with ships, allied with the Banthites and enslaved some Vadeli dragonships and their Triolini attendants. Before they attacked the Waertagi, the Helerians share the blame for destroying the Tadeniti. However, if they were taking slaves (as the example with the Waertagi shows), they may have done so with the Tadeniti earlier on, too. And while I hesitate to make any suggestion of making light of Vadeli enslavement, I wonder whether the Helerians didn't rather absorb their "slaves" into their own culture, making them disappear as Logicians. Still, this may be the entry point for Lhankor Mhy into the Theyalan myths. So the original Helerians were shape-changing cloud folk with cloud ships that also worked on the sea surface, who entered recorded history from the southwest and fought the Tadeniti and Waertagi successfully. Whether as allies of the Vadeli or whether the Vadeli simply profited from their expansion by striking at a second front is another question. Neither Valind nor Solkathi are named as allies of the Vadeli, but that might have been an oversight by Zzabur. After the defeat of the Banthites and the Vadeli in the south, the Helerians disappear from Western history. Enter the Helerings in Heortling Mythology from the lands of Andal which they share with Hykimi folk, in the southwest. There, the Helerings ally with the seas surrounding Ernaldela to summon Worcha. After Worcha was defeated, the Helerings and the followers of Orlanth meet for battle, but instead Orlanth and Heler become friends (or lovers), and the Helerings become the third Great Tribe of the Orlanthi, along the Vingkotlings and the Durevings. My personal theory for the Durevings is that they are the Golden Age Earth Folk that preceded the Storm Age. All those handmaidens of Ernalda, all those serpent temples of which two survived into the Dawn (Old Seshnela and Estali), and all those Lowfire husbands and tamed Wild Man giants like Entru or Tada. The people who the Kachasti met on their eastward Speaking Tour. Those who accepted the Beast People protectors to survive the Storm Age and Darkness, like the Enjoreli, Enerali or Pendali - note: not the Tawari, Galanini or Basmoli Hykimi, but the husbandized (or rather shared son) version of these Hykimi folk. Building cities. Did the Kachasti go native here during enslavement by the Vadeli (or escaping from that)? I think so. But note how the Speaking Folk and the Book Folk of Danmalastan disappears from the protection of Zzabur, and how we find a Speaking God and a Knowing God joining forces with a certain Storm God.

I did like the concept of secular orders in HQ1 where e.g. craft guilds had their own (really limited) grimoires linked to their craft which allowed them to use "spells" as an enhanced process of performing their skills. A magic of making and doing - something hinted at in the tribes of Danmalastan. At least I don't quite see Zzabur or other wizards as masters of the flensing knife or the preparation of glue or parchment in order to transfer Vadeli skin into book bindings.

I strongly doubt that anybody behind the decision to take out the mediaeval and renaissance parallels spared a second even thinking about those people. The recent Glorantha publications aim at an adult readership and might have to be sold within brown paper bags if they were available in your FLGS in the Bible Belt. Yes, of the real world monotheistic religions Christianity has been dissected a lot for conflicts and terms that create a familiarity. Crusades, saints, prophets, churches. Blame the card game Credo (which generates insidious insights to the nature and evolution of the Nicaean creed) and the freeform How the West Was One which started the Gloranthan community to work on the West, if you want. Or sit back and read some of the discussions we had in 1993 and 1994 while trying to find a consensus how the West in the Third Age worked. About how not to get lost too much in the trappings of Christianity. Any Taliban (of whichever creed) are likely to get apoplexies if they read into Glorantha. They won't even get anywhere close to the point where they can make a comparison between the various Gloranthan religions and cults and their own twisted understanding of their holy books.

Just out of interest, what happened to the Chain of Veneration or liturgy or blessings? In terms of magical ecology (or wargaming ressources), are these still a thing?

When it comes to cattle/sheep/similar herd beast herding peoples, it is hard to decide whether they are Storm folks migrating in from the Spike area or native Hykimi groups. The region Bisos comes from is right next to the region where Varnaval led the Andam Horde into Pelanda. The use of Hsunchen beast god names in Storm folks isn't necessarily an indicator for Hykimi descent, either - the Harandings of Mralothenyi are clearly Orlanthi, but their pig deity bears the same name as the Hsunchen beast spirit we find in Ralios and Ramalia. So if there is a Keftavar, we cannot say whether this is Tawar the Hykimi ancestor of cattle (in Fronela) or another bull god among Storm folk. (Note that Storm folk includes the Praxian Founders and their herds, too, as it does any surviving barbarian culture of descendants of Vadrus with their goats and goatlike herd beasts. At least to the uninformed Monomythist.) I wonder if there were people who turned into Hykimi to survive the Storm and Darkness Ages. Shapechanging into beasts wasn't limited to the Hykimi - we find both Kodig's and Korol's descendants as shapechangers into beasts in King Heort's stories, and that Fronelan myth in Anaxial's Roster suggests a similar behavior, although that may have been some syncretic myth as the Eleven Beast Hykimi of southern Fronela accepted Theyalan theism. There is also the question what became of the Kachasti whose Genertelan holdings were in the valley that became the Nidan Mountains. These missionaries/immigrants from Danmalastan penetrated into the Barbarian Belt of Fronela and northern and western Ralios, were enslaved by their Vadeli refugees/PoWs, and then disappeared. Eaten by Chaos always is an option (also with the Vadeli), but an assimilation into the Hykimi of those regions is a possibility, too. I am certain that the Theyalan missionaries found plenty of myths among the Enjoreli and Rathori of southern Fronela that were known to the cults of Odayla and Storm Bull/Urox, too. Or Esus and Uralda. Edit: The Battle of Eleven Beasts had beast people fighting on the Council side as well - presumably Praxian allies, possibly Galanini too. There were definitely less than 10 different Hykimi tribes involved (the eleventh being the not quite- or no longer Hykimi Enjoreli, who IMO were similar to the Enerali in their magical origin).

Daka Fal as an exclusive cult, or Daka Fal worship on top of normal Orlanth worship? That's why I mentioned them as an example of dead (and gone) still taking an active role in the world. I don't mean what the Praxians think of them, I mean what do non-beast riders faced with them think.

This is straying from the topic of Tarsh a lot... Thanks for the reference. To be honest, this is not the kind of "proof" I expected - while Newt makes a great fanzine, bringing up such an obscure aside mention from a personal campaign isn't really helpful. "troll blood in their veins" - I'll play along and posit that there was a race of darkness-loving seven foot tall people with the appearance of humans that hated Nysaloran missionaries and killed them where they encountered them. Does this mean they have to be related to Kyger Litor? The Dawn Age knew other man-shaped denizens of the Underworld inhabiting the surface world, like the Shadzorings of Alkoth - hellspawn of Shargash. There is no reason not to have another such race hidden away somewhere in the Elder Wilds. If they were foes of the Bright Empire, there's a good reason why we don't find them any more. Another possibility could be some kind of vampiric cult that somehow bleeds troll blood into their veins to gain superhuman stature. Losing the connection to Kyger Litor is a surefire way to get rid of the trollkin curse (doesn't help much if the subject already is a trollkin, though). The example that Sandy Petersen discussed at Kraken are the jungle trolls who lost their Cold to a wound caused by Pamalt. There is little information on crossbreeding among the races of Darkness. What we know: An uzko mother mating with a Zorak Zorani demon will mother a male Great Troll thanks to a heroquest by Cragspider. Bina Bang mating with the Dehori demon Lord Lurker in Shadows produced the male uzko Pikat Yaraboom (uzko mostly, but beware the demonic Left Hand of Death). There could be a trend here - Darkness demons are able to father sons on uzko mothers. Unions with uzuz mothers might produce even better and valid forms of uz. I think that Neep Trollbane might have managed to mate with uzko mothers, but it is unknown whether the Neepspawn were the result of such activity or born from matings with (superior?) trollkin mothers. There is no data on other crossbreeding efforts other than with the Kitori. A (full) Kitori mating with an uzko mother will father uzko-shaped half-Kitori, never trollkin. If these descendants breed on, they may form a clan that looks like a clan of dark trolls. They don't belong to Kyger Litor without a ritual of adoption, though. There are no recorded attempts for crossbreeding jungle trolls with dark trolls. The new/rediscovered race of Horned Trolls among some jungle trolls in Pamaltela hasn't been around for long enough to tell whether they can crossbreed with their jungle troll relatives and what would result from such unions, or whether they breed true.

If you go back far enough, the roots of Mazdaism and Brahmanism may be a good starting point for understanding Danmalastan. The Original (Runic) Beings of Danmalastan (including Zzabur) are the equivalent of the gods worshipped by mortals elsewhere, and the Malkioni regard those gods as great-uncles who strayed from logic for personal aggrandizement. The folk of Danmalastan underwent a split when the Vadeli maintained a school of logic that differed from that of Zzabur. Both Zzabur and the Vadeli got uglier and uglier in their means in that conflict. While neither the Vadeli nor the Brithini had gods that could be demonized, they had ancestors that filled that role. I don't know of a single story where Vadel had a conflict with Malkion in any of his stages. It is always Vadel and Zzabur going at each other with gusto. Zzabur finally expelled Malkion, refusing to accept any guidance other than his own. The Vadeli wars corrupted both parties - the Pelandans interacted with different groups of blue-skinned sorcerers that we cannot identify as either Vadeli or Brithini-related Kachasti (or yet other peoples of blue skin that "learned" from Vadeli, Brithini or Waertagi in their conflicts). The Malkioni are identified as former Brithini who left Zzabur's influence for a variety of reasons. The most prominent example is the exodus of Froalar to avoid a fratricidal succession war for the position of the ruling Talar of Brithos (basically Zzabur's governor), leaving this role for his brother. This established Frowal and possibly some of the other Seshnelan cities ending on -wal. That dualistic thought is present in Fronelan sects/schools as well, with the Creator of the material world seen as the demiurge. The Magi of ancient Persia are at least superficially a class of non-sacerdotal wise folk caring for the spiritual needs of their people, although their original duties included those of sacrificers of bulls. I don't know enough about the Indian caste systems through the ages to comment on how good a Malkioni parallel they are. The Greek philosophers and their schools are probably the best parallel for the role of the zzabur caste in Malkionism. They adhere to the teachings of their founders without necessarily deifying their founder. Confucianism might be another place to look for.