Joerg

Are there any maritime or submaritime versions of the Andins? They come across as an independent breed of Underworld man-rune demons analogous to the trolls, maybe less hostile to Chaos (if at all), and they might have a variation analogous to the Sea Trolls. In that case, it will be interesting how they manage to intrude into the Zabdamar waters under the mystical protection of Thrunhin Da.

p.272 Chang Tsai: Ogre King and Legion of Red Bones - are these native monsters, or are they a descriptor for one of the five False Dragon Ring leaders and his minions? Thang How appears to be one of the Extraordinarily Fair Feminine Legalists. Feiquan: Selelaloon’s springs - shouldn't it be Serelaloon's springs? Compare Revealed Mythologies p.124. Aptanace appears to have set quite severe strictures, still taught by the Academy of Xingshu - another point towards a stance like Confucianism. The Ziyu Academy of Huanshiye has a different, more lenient approach. The third Academy, the White Deer Academy of Miju completes the three rival academies of Hanjan, without giving a hint about its orientation. But having three different readings of what constitutes proper behavior gives at least some variety for Kralori etiquette. No idea whether or how this could affect a game, though. Overall Hanjan stands out as an intellectual center of Kralorela, combined with heroic steadfastness in military matters - an interesting set of virtues. I don't think that the "Invisible Exarch" is a provincial Exarch. Whether the head of the criminal network is one of the Exarchs (in status and sophistication) is a different matter, but I would group him with e.g. the Exarch of the Dragon Gate in Lungren Men. If we only knew of a time when Dara Happa and Kralorela stood under the same administration... I guess this is one of the cases where an institution was spread by Sheng Seleris to both sides of the Wastes. I have no idea how they communicate with one another - letters sent via the Redhair Tribe would take about a year for each direction.

The island of Zon An is about as far from Genert's Wastes as you can get while staying in Kralorela. My first associations were Japanese macaques or the Indian monkey gangs hiding in their hindu temples. Nothing Chinese, refreshingly. It is quite possible that these monkeys trace their origin to Kang Luway from Teshnos - there was a time before Zon An became an island. The Praxian baboons tell of their own Monkey Ruins near the Storm Mountains as their kingdom, on the far side of Genert's Garden.

I wonder whether another way into retirement might be mystical union with Great Ernalda (or Imarja), leaving the concerns of this world behind. The Ezel queen is not a political leader. Houses dealing with her will have learned this truth the hard way. One former Queen of Nochet, Bruvalaina was disposed off at Ezel at age 37, which gives her quite a few remaining fertile years to populate Ezel with granddaughters of Bruvala, and out of control of House Norinel. I wonder how much Bruvala spread her sons among Enfranchised Houses outside of Nochet (a single son could have left offspring in several temporary marriages all over the place), and how much such paternal lineage to her might be counted as blessed. She only had seven daughters, three of whom became queens of Nochet. If you compare the list of Feathered Horse Queens, they all seem to be descended from Yoristina, daughter of the first FHQ and Sartar, by direct matrilineal descent. That's how a blessed lineage works in an Earth temple. I wonder whether this model can be applied to Ezel, though, with about 100 enfranchised House Grandmothers (and many more non-enfranchised but deeply pious houses) eager to place some of their (grand-) daughters or nieces in the Ezel hierarchy to have an inside voice, and how much the priestesshood will fill positions with their own offspring from sacred procreation. I also wonder how much non-Queen matrilineal granddaughters of Bruvala would be considered "blessed" compared to granddaughters and great-granddaughters from an unbroken line of Queens. Do the Esrolian Grandmothers put value in the concept of "purple-born" heiresses? And where does that leave any House Norinel daughters of Bruvalaina or possibly even Bruva while they were queens? Before they were queens?

Piscoi Triolini aren't reported for the Sea of Fog, at least none of the three kindred known to us (Malasp. Ysabbau, Gnydron). Kahar's Sea has its own, non-Triolini merfolk, the Zabdamar, offspring of Thrunhin Da (aka Harantara) and Kahar. I would go for the water-breathing Waertagi - they are able to interbreed with humans while leaving an inheritance quite similar to the Innsmouth look, with bluish-green patches of skin or scales and spikes. (In fact I have this as part of the character concept for a Pelaskite of mine.) The problem is the location. Kahar's Sea of Fog isn't known for a Triolini presence, and the local Zabdamar aren't quite a match for the Deep Ones. Selkies aka Barred Seal Hsunchen might have been an alternative, but they are listed as extinct. The cult was imported (I assume recently, after the Opening) from the East Isles, and sounds like an antigod cult. Now both the offspring of Vith and Gebkeran and the alien deities of elsewhere are collectively called antigods, so this isn't much to tell us about the entities behind it. There are Triolini in the East Isles - two major Ludoch tribes, and their ancestral deities including Triolina, who might fill the "Secret Traditions of Life " role. Fertile intermarriages of humans (other than Waertagi, who already are half-Triolini by descent) with piscoi or cetoi merfolk haven't been reported. On the other hand, we have numerous cases of niiads mating with all manner of non-Triolini partners, possibly including less-than-demigod humans. Still, such offspring could at best be born in second generation now. Which might be all that is needed to display full Deep One characteristics, at least occasionally, and the urge to settle below the waves. Another interesting way could be the Triolina magic of assuming the (general, not necessarily specific) shape of an entity one has consumed. Returning to one's original shape needn't be perfect all the time, so an Innsmouth Look might be accrued over repeated uses of this ability.

Ebe the Wild Man might also map to Iste, one of the nine Avanparloth of Vithela, aka Majadan. After all Okeria maps to Yothenara/Erdires. On the other hand, one becomes a mandarin only after success in an exam of acceptance, so children of mandarins don't automatically stay in their parent's class. I guess most who don't join the ranks of scribes instead, ranking among the artisans or the crafters, unless they join the army or other imperial institutions outside of the norms of society. In a certain way, Aptanace parallels the Confucian basic society, although his story would be quite different from the historical Confucius (however the transliteration is nowadays). But that's as far as I would state this parallel to ancient China - a philosopher instituting the society. Shavaya does many similar things. He too is a sage, but not one of the great mystics. The Venfornic practice doesn't always use asceticism. I think that Aptanace derived deeper insights from regulating the everyday life. A fusion of materialism and mysticism, perhaps, requiring mundane knowledge and study in order to achieve transcendent insights. Shavaya went to NiangMao for advice, and set out to become emperor. As emperor, he instituted irrigation and rice cultivation. But Shavaya was a sage before, too. Which brings me to the question what exactly the Exarchs are. In the Guide, they are presented as draconic entities sporting human bodies. I wonder how much fluctuation there is in the ranks of the Exarchs and Archexarchs, and how new Exarchs are recruited. We know this for the Mandarins (p.54), who (IMO) embody the Aptanacic tradition. Not all exarchs are overseers of provinces (though p.54 leads us to assume this). Lungren Men has an exarch of the dragon gate (p.271). Hou Shi has a Monkey Exarch (p.277). Boshi Bushi oversees just the small island of Xie Dao (p.278). The bridges are said to have their own minor exarchs (p.277) rather than grand mandarins. Lingting in Boshan has the Exarch of the South (p.271) Several exarchs come color coded, including blue, white and invisible. The contest between Sheng and the Exarch at the Iron Forts had the Exarch display Raw Manifestation, which sounds like a draconic mystical ability. Another puzzle: The absence of any mention of the Cult of the Orca in the Kralorela chapter - it only crops up in the Dragon section, p.79. This as always been strange - Thrunhin Da is the Kralori name for Harantara, the ancestress of the Zabdamar merfolk. Why would she institute a military cult to deal with issues between her descendants and her worshipers, and not a means of propitiation of the merfolk? The HQ1 affinities in Men of the Sea offer such rituals. There isn't any mention of orcas in the guide in relation to Kralori marines.

... I should have said I found no match, not that there was none.

I checked most of the Hero Wars and HQ1 era books for such a rune, but there was no match. The closest fit were the Pella rune lacking the dot in the center (Thunder Rebels p.191) and the Oakfed rune wich has a V with a dot in the center, and handles to the side (Heroquest 1, p.147). My best bet would be one of the husband deities listed in the First Fire Day box (Thunder Rebels p.190). The U-shaped runes crop up with lesser Heortling deities. A dot in the middle usually signifies some fire connection.

Since there is no official tournament gaming, and since each campaign will have its own pacing and scale, the rules of HeroQuest in whichever incarnation are mostly a social contract of the gaming group. These rules/suggestions may be a defining trait of HQG, but this doesn't mean that they have to define your games of HeroQuest in Glorantha. There are different styles of narration and of cooperative gaming that use this rules set, but with their own conventions and methods, using different platforms (face-to-face in campaigns, convention one-offs, by hangout (or other such internet methods) or by forum, wiki or mailing list.

That's how Glorantha works though. Everything has a myth/god/spirit/sorcery-based explanation, not a science-based one. Plants grow because of myth and magic, not because they're just following natural processes. e.g. if you get ill, it's not because of some natural effect like a virus, it's because of a spirit or curse or similar. Often enough the magic and the myth is in the being, IMO. The world of Glorantha is permeated by spirits, by essences, and by divinity. That's different from our world. These presences can be expressed as runes, although those runic descriptions usually are only a partial description. We have seen several philosophies of atomic Glorantha - the Three Worlds Model for instance described everything in terms of divine, spirit and essence components. We have seen the suggestion that everything can be broken down into core runes. I can accept something like that, although in my perception of submicroscopic composition of matter these runes would be subatomic particles rather than the equivalent of chemical elements or isotopes. Matter has realized expressions (liquid water), but also has potential expressions (steam, ice, air humidity, surface-adhesive water) that also are inside the runic composition. Sea water also has all the food taken from the land, all the diffuse and concrete life (cyanobacteria, microalgae or luminous bacteria surely are a thing in Glorantha, observable in collectives, which may be described as spirits, as matter, as divine influence), dissolved salts and minerals, suspended soil particles. Not to mention observable life - borderline visible organisms, the stuff filtered by numerous organisms like shells, sea anemones, sponges, worms, up to swarms of herring or baleen whales. According to Orlanthi, Pelorians or Lunars, each person is made up from 5, 6 or 7 souls. The Orlanthi make these the five elemental souls, suggesting that a single rune suffices to describe this soul. That would be an oversimplification on the scale of God Learner mistakes when approaching a local deity through runic analysis rather than through its myths, interconnections and dependences on other deities. The Malkioni have a concept of a magical energy inhabiting a person, but one that dissipates upon death, except for a number of Hrestoli (and presumably als a number of Henotheist) sects who believe in reincarnation (like the Galvosti, the only sect explicitely stated to have this belief in the Guide). Nothing about elemental souls, beast or other parts. Various mystical practices untie the mystic's identity from the entanglements of the world. That might alter their runic affiliations. Anyway, how does a change in runic affiliations affect the runic make-up of one's body and/or soul?

p.311 - the Miringite Cave in the Darsen Hills as Dawn exit from the 4th and 5th Underworlds. The Theyalans have their own deities appear at the Gates of Dawn. Are there other such Underworld exits elsewhere? (5th Underworld is really deep...)

Considering that he is looking upon the pleasant side of the statue, either he is into philosophical musings, or else he is copping a look beyond aesthetic admiration.

I am more concerned with the definition of Carmania when I read that Carmania proclaims its independence - does it include the Oronin satrapy, or at least the western parts thereof? I take it that the Charg eruption didn't meet much of imperial troop resistance, basically making it as devastating as Greymane's great raids, or worse if some of those bull people managed to take some of the keeps or cities in the south. Aiming for the aid of the Arrolian territories indicates that the new Shah of Carmania still is a Lunar shah. I wonder whether it is Spol or Jhor which leads the new Carmania (or maybe the Eel-Ariash of the Oronin heartland satrapy, also liberating significant parts of Doblian?). Worion will have suffered most from the Charg outbreak, and the satrap of Bindle has shown to be a defensive player rather than an expansionist. WIll the new Carmania invoke the Lion Shahs or will it use the Bull Shahs in order to gain the support of Charg?

If you want to let your players' characters traipse through the wilderness, caves or musty ruins, fighting off encounters and inhabitants old-school style, RQ2 is a good system to use. It has some old-school traits that are endearing only through nostalgia, but every instance of old-school rpgs will have such. Until the kickstarter pdfs/reprints are available, you should use the Cults Compendium and one of the three RQ Classics campaign pdfs, and have a go. The resistance table is laughably simple to compute in your head. Equal values for active and reactive ability score will have a 50% chance at succeeding, every point the active skill is better will raise the chance by 5%-points, every point worse will lower it by that amount. In the case of extreme differences, a 1% chance for success or failure can be applied. Raising the difficulties is an advice, as are pass-fail cycles. Failing forward is more important than these technicalities, and the players should feel challenged on their path through the narration. HQG has ready-to play campaigns in Sartar-Kingdom of Heroes and The Eleven Lights (with the required companion volume The Coming Storm). If you say "hierarchical" rather than "feudal", you'll be right at home e.g. in Esrolia, in the West, or in Peloria. Dragon Pass Orlanthi and Praxians won't be able to give you this. Sun Domers on the other hand are perfect, and you could use the RQ3 Sun County book for the setting, and then go on to either Borderlands or Pavis, using the Gloranthan Classics - regardless which game system you will be using. Copies of that book should be available online. In case of doubt I have a shrink-wrapped spare one I could part with.The problem with this is that you have to do much of the setting preparation yourself if you play away from Prax/Dragon Pass. Esrolia is comparatively easy, as Harald Smith has done quite a bit of background preparation for his play-by-forum Nochet HQG game over on RPGGeek. House membership and your position in the House are pretty similar to a feudal system in terms of rank. Caste systems are the norm in Malkioni lands. Different name, very similar effect. There is little directly gameable material available for this culture, and none exactly for the two systems you consider. The eastern cultures of Kralorela and Vormain have similarly layered societies, but apart from the out-of-print RQ3 Land of Ninja campaign (which could be played in Vormain) no gameable material has been published. Fonrit with its layers of slavery has seen some gameable material distributed over convention fund raisers. Not feudal (unless your definition of feudal includes an extremely dystopian interpretation of the feudal system), but again with clear hierarchies, and magic to ensure obedience and compliance. The Lunar Empire has a layered society following the Dara Happan model. Not feudal in the normal sense of the word, either, but certainly hierarchical. Teshnos and Maslo might qualify, too. Both have caste systems different from the Western one. The Guide offers quite extensive gazetteers for all of these settings, but leaves the local details to be worked out by the narrator (and possibly input by the players).

So fermentation is a special case of naturally occurring magical transformation. As is life in general. Fermentation isn't limited to alcohol. I specifically mentioned baking bread or aging fish or bird meat in air-tight vessels. It is also about production of vinegar, curd, cheeses, yogurts, kefir.... These household magics/processes have things in common. Whether yeast doughs or sourdough, you improve your bread by adding some purposefully left-over seed material from the previous run. In case of yeast breads, you can use the leftover of the mash after separating off the beer as an alternative. Nope. That's how you get the juice, aka the must (for white wines) or just the pulp. Must is a delightful beverage already before fermentation. Stomping doesn't help with producing cider, either. Stomping with your feet won't give you the juice, you need a mill- or quern-like crushing device. An oil mill will do. Good luck with that. In order to brew a beer, you have to malt, to kindle the life hiding in the grain before initiating the mash. Every brewer will tell you so. Afterwards, you have to heat the mash before putting it into cool, underground or at least roofed (i.e. dark) storages. Malt is a welcome source of sweetness, too. Brewers and distillers stop the malting process by roasting the grain before starting the mash. Stuff has to be sweet before it can be made intoxicating. In this case, I dearly ask you not to omit tangible real life mysteries in the production of these beverages. You're losing out with your "stomping dance" travesty - when I read your suggestion of "it's about the dance", I had all kinds of unfortunate visual associations, like the Lucy episode with Lucille Ball at the vinery, or the cut scene from the Pink Panther series used in the posthumous (pertaining to Peter Sellers) hunt for inspectore Clouseau. It's not a dance. Plowing a field is more of a dance than pulping grapes. Sowing a field is more of a dance. You get a much better myth out of Eurmal maliciously pulping the berry harvest, and subsequent treatment of the housewife producing the beverage. So, fermentation is a commonly known sorcery/alchemy with a bit of animism. (Something you know, with a bit of something you have - the seed to start or accelerate the fermentation.) Deities may be able to give blessings in addition to the correct procedure, or aid maintaining the correct procedure. Disease is associated with darkness and spirits. So why would fermentation attempts gone off not be associated with such? Bad goings on in the town may have drawn their attention, or neglectful treatment of earth's bounty. If nothing else, dark earth spirits. Similar to the modern world superstitions about menstruating women and whipping cream (whether with an electric mixer or some hand-stirring kitchen tool). Fermentation is a Fertility in Darkness transformation, often underground. Cellars, caves, huge Amphorae dug into the ground (I've seen these in a documentation on (caucasus) Georgian vineries). It isn't the warmth of the womb but the underground chill. Fermentation aids are well known to any agricultural society. You get curd for cheese only if you store the milk in calf stomachs, or use the liquid you can extract from calf/lamb/kid stomachs e.g. with whey: the rennet. Any pastoralist culture will know this, and have myths explaining the necessity, unless heavily christianized or similarly alienated from their ancient myths. And even then it will have superstitions about it. E.g. how a bull calf is preferable (when the real cause is simple herd economy). Sure, your average, city-bred gamer will be ignorant of such processes. (At least of the production of dairy - I find that gamers are fairly well informed on the processes of brewing beer and spirits.)

Nice. Air pressure/density might alter the altitude steps of the temperature somewhat, but that can be neglected for game purposes, and planets whose organisms use other liquids than water for their cells, resulting in different freezing or boiling points. Latitude is a factor, too, but one should assume that a landing team will choose a location where either the crew or the natives will suffer least. Whether the planet is so hot that only the arctic zones are habitable (maybe only in winter), or whether it is so cold that you get tundra at the equator, some common sense should be assumed. Unless PCs are at the helm.

I would think so. There are several types of rice in the Pelorian bowl, and several types of rice in Kralorela, Teshnos and Vormain. Some types may be common to both regions, others will be local variations unknown elsewhere. The Artmali or their Loper allies may have been rice farmers, too - on Melib, in the old capital Mellon, Annilla is among other functions the goddess of rice. No rice mother is given for Fonrit. According to Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, Murharzarm introduced irrigation to Dara Happa. Rice farming may have been possible without irrigation in natural wetlands or in regularly flooded basins, and I suppose that Greg meant to include the Wild Rice farming or at least harvesting done by the native Americans of the rivers in the agricultural methods of Peloria. In Teshnos, Calyz tamed the Tesho marsh and converted it into rice growing land, but the cult of Solf sponsors the rice festival in Taksatar - pretty clear what his role is in this business, at least as the consumer. In Kralorela, both Emperor Shavaya and a son of Aptanace the Sage are credited with irrigation and rice paddies. Public drunkenness probably is an offense in Kralorela, and there is no mention of alcoholic beverages in either the culture section or the regional description of Kralorela. Wine is listed as one of the imports, though. Nothing indicates the presence or absence of rice wine or other booze in Vormain.

Sounds good. In case of doubt, offer magical tokens for these abilities, and make them (or rather their "bases") fit together like a jigsaw puzzle to get the final clue, and add an item/ability card. That way, you can re-distribute these in cases of non-attendance or drop-outs without having to re-write the character sheets. Laminated sheets on a key ring will do for holding the character "sheet" together. (Speaking from personal experience here - in Griffin Mountain or Bust my giant character was supposed to have a rune item, but had not received that item card, causing some confusion on my part and other players when I repeatedly was accosted of having said item. It wasn't part of my character sheet's goals list, either.) You could have them fight giants (adult NPCs) wielding tree trunks (those 6 foot foam swimming aids) with soft swords, thrown soft balls etc. too. I wonder whether a station with balloons and mandatory prickly "armor" or slippers on the feet could be realized as a test for sneaking. (Rather than a hardly elevated balance bar with swinging sacks, which might frighten some participants.) Provide safety goggles - ideally with gruesome to look at full face masks and some cloth protection for the upper body attached - for the undead group, too. And hope for a calm day, or make this an indoor (or tent) event. We stopped using battle magic spells (sheets of paper with the spell name and effect on them) that would be crumbled up and tossed at opposing trolls in life action trollball. We had games where the wind was too strong to hit except when directly delivered.

The Black Widow aspect of Sorana Tor came to the full only in the Illaro dynasty that followed Arim's Twin Dynasty. Earth worship in Tarsh had always had a good bit of the Dark Side of the earth to it - Shaker's Temple is ancient, from Vingkotling times or earlier. (Though probably rebuilt a couple of times...) Courting any goddess has its dangers, often mortal ones. That's part of what makes the mortal men courting them heroes. Kero Fin has always been a mother goddess - four of her children are better known, Orlanth, Yinkin, Quivin, and Inora. Tara/Velhara, the Lady of the Wild, may be a daughter or an aspect of Kero Fin, just like Sorana Tor. It was winning her affection (symbolized by bearing her necklace) that put Aram ya Udram on the First Council rather than the high king of the Heortlings. Aram having been a civilized diplomat besides an accomplished warrior and tamer of demons may have played a role in this, too, but also in winning her affection. Sacrifices aren't really unusual for leaders to perform, though usually on animals rather than sentients. Most leaders fulfill a religious function that causes them to cut throats, hew of heads or stab hearts, possibly cutting them out before. Priests may do this more often, but leaders will lead sacrifices at times. As a native speaker of German, the terms "victim" and "sacrifice" are pretty much synonymous for me ("Opfer"), so it may have taken me some more acclimatisation with the mindset to "offer" (linguistically the same as Opfer) lives to the powers of the Other Side. (Note another interesting linguistic construct, to "give up" something - passing it on to the elevated Other Side.) So, human sacrifice. Few human cults in Glorantha do this out of the blue. In many cases, the sacrifices volunteer for this. In other cases, victims ("overcome ones") are foes captured to go this way. Often this was a weird sort of honoring the enemy, too - you didn't pass on just anyone, the nobler the better. A sacrifice might evade the trip to the Court of Silence, and move directly to the afterlife of the receiving deity. They shouldn't be available for resurrection via the normal means. (Raiding the deity in question on the Other Side might be a viable method, but you'd have to be a demigod to pull something like that off.) Anyway, I am fairly certain that Arim knew about the man-eating side of Sorana Tor. That did not deter him in the slightest - it may have increased her allure.

I've been wondering about the domination of the southern Genertelan navies by the trireme design for quite a while. My go-to source used to be FGU's Bireme and Galley wargame and rpg supplement which included deck plans, campaign rules for re-building lost vessels, ramming maneuvers etc. The bireme with two rows of oar banks was an easier and more seaworthy design than the trireme, and dominated the Roman navy as well as the period of colonization of the mediterranean prior to Athens' dominance. It is the logical step up from the penteconter or hectaconter monoreme design and is assumed to require less training than the trireme. All of these designs have a single rower per oar. The pentaremes of the punic war are assumed to have had two decks of two rowers per oar and the lower deck with a single rower per oar, although designs with just two or even only one deck are possible. Triremes are used by the Quinpolic league, the Handrans, the Kethaelans (Nochet, Rightarm Isles, Karse/Heortland), and by the Teshnans. All other naval forces appear to use monoremes with 25 to 50 rowers per side. I am fairly sure that the original design of Dormal's ship resembled a merchant vessel rather than a war vessel. The crew members we know are sailor heroes rather than great fighters (which defined the crew of the Argo). The Empire of the Middle Sea started out with smaller ships for the Battle of Tanian's Victory, and terrorized Kethaela with its bronze-scale clad, fire-spewing turtle galleys (which have their historical precedent with the 16th century Korean turtle-ships). In Kralorela they encountered the mammoth war barges, which any megalomaniac ruler would have wanted to copy for their own aggrandizement, which may have led to the leviathans mentioned as protective force for the Svagad Fleet (Middle Sea Empire p.25). Svagad's original fleet consisted of gilded galleys (p.20) protected by friendly naiads and bound sylphs and undines. I wonder why the trireme emerged as the pinnacle of Genertelan naval doctrine after the Closing. Starting with biremes would ha ve been logical, unless the shipbuilders of Karse and maybe Nochet maintained the art of building and crewing triremes. How many patrol craft would the Mirrorsea Bay have needed before the Opening? Maybe a dozen? The Hendriki kings appear to have had access at least to a sizeable armada of transports in order to get to Rhigos and other places in the initial stage of the Adjustment Wars. While the route north of Shadow Plateau still was open, the history of their conquest suggests that they landed in southern Esrolia and expanded from there. Afterwards, mutual distrust may have prompted both the Esrolians and the Hendriki to maintain a patrol fleet able to intercept troop transports, but with the arrival of Belintar, the necessity of this must have dropped. It isn't entirely clear how much effort their Pelaskite rowers and helmsmen will have spent chasing their kin from the opposite shore of the bay, either. With the Opening, the necessity returned, and the Holy Country had a head start building vessels to project power. They didn't have enough training, though, as their initial clash with the pirates showed. I guess the pirates used less ambitious monoreme vessels, like the Wolf Pirate ones in the Guide. Teshnan navy: Contrary to the statement under Military on p.426 on p.439 we read under Tumasikit: I am convinced that at least about a quarter of the Holy Country triremes were absent from the 1616 battle against the Wolf Pirates. Dosakayo is a major Kethaelan naval or at least re-supply base protecting the Teshnan trade from Marazi and other raids and performing mercenary convoy duty for ships sailing past the Sofali Isles.

There is also an association of violet eyes with lefthandedness, which also featured in a story by Greg about either Obduran or Orlaront, or possibly both. I couldn't find the reference, though.

Mee Vorala, the goddess of Dark Plants (fungi) is known to be involved in intoxicating drinks as well. Yeasts would fall into modern fungal taxonomy, but I am not quite so sure for Glorantha. Both yeast and sourdough could be regarded as darkness-related, and other fermentation processes as well (like the production of fish sauce and spekesild, or the Inuit delicacy of whole birds fermented in sealskin), and in that case Mee Vorala would be the go-to deity of darkness. Historically, yeast was added to beer in the form of grapes or raisins which had it growing naturally on their skins. The spent grain or the dregs can be used to cultivate the yeast. On the whole, anything done with grains (whether baking or brewing) will fall under the aegis of the earth goddesses. Malting the grain is calling forth its fertility, the only alternative to malting is to have the brewer of the alcoholic drink to chew the grain and spit it out again, using the spittle enzymes to break down the starch. I suppose that there are various less civilized cultures using this approach. Wine appears to be grown everywhere where people tend gardens, even in Fronela (Pomons). Probably not in the Praxian oases, where fermented dates appear to be the only alternative to fermented milk for booze. While wine appears to be an exported good, brewing beer and other booze (cider, kvass, sake) probably is a household craft in most places, attracting household goddesses or spirits for the task. The presence of perfumers suggests that distillation or freeze-concentration is known, probably by the Lhankor Mhy cult and other alchemical keepers of secrets.

Boshan has a hilly hinterland. Not quite the remnants of a lake or shallow sea. So you are in the "different Yelm and Aether" camp here. Ok. Revealed Mythology has difficulties placing the Kralori emperors, too, like Shavaya being named as guardian of Kerandaruth when Govmeranen (equated with HeenMaroun) retires, named by Mashunasan (who reassembled the world). (p.85, with a footnote expressing some doubt.) Ok, 16 different tribes/nations/linguistic groups I can buy, although some may already have been joined into small empires by enterprising leaders. In civilized Kralorela, only three languages are spoken officially - imperial Kralorelan, Stultan, and the turtle dialect on that lotus-growing island southeast of Wanzow. Hsunchen languages aren't supposed to be related to Kralorelan, and will be spoken by the wild Hsunchen of the uncivilized mountain regions. Naverian civilization was present at the start of the Golden Age, when Brighteye "assumed his rightful place as emperor of the world". Nochet is about as old. Aptanace's father Ebe is as primitive as you can get in Kralorela, mating (and procreating) with everything until he meets The Woman, the eastern aspect of Uleria, and gets tamed. God Learner mythographers might have debated whether this was Grandfather Mortal, Old Lodril or (if they had heard of him) Ganesatarus (or some other "First non-mother" entity). Except that Suvarian and Nochet mythology starts in a Green Age with rivers. Much like Entekos provides the Golden Age with air. Or he could have lived through all of the Golden Age, taking his time to leave 700 sons behind. Or an exodus from the still uncivilized influence of Ebe. I don't think that Aptanace became a ruler at any time. He is the wise patriarch helping institute an emerging civilization. No idea whether this was of Catal Huyuk sophistication to start with. Irrigation is credited to one of his sons, and this communal effort will have started urban life and administration. (Communal waterworks like irrigation don't always result in urban cultures - the Frisian coast management worked well from a clan-based society or farmers' republic.) In a way, Aptanace occupies a similar role in the emerging Kralori civilization as Durev does on the Downland Migration. The deeds of Murharzarm or Mohenjar in Dara Happa are different from that. The civilization created by Aptanace is orderly, sedentary, patriarchal and free from major struggles or problems that couldn't be solved by the patriarch. Perhaps comparable to Tada, his neighbor. It isn't quite clear how the mystic NiangMao came into this. For all we know, he may have been a disciple of Oorduren. And he may have studied with the dragonewts, given that his Void might be the same focus that the EWF mystics appears to have. Shavayah started out as a sage seeking advice from NiangMao, then civilizing the Hsunchen around him, introducing them to rice farming and all the other trappings of civilization. He probably did so away from Hanjan. Bodkartu appears in hers. In Thalurzni's mythology, Halisayan eats the Immortality Pill, possibly marking her becoming a goddess. Of course, this may have been the old "avatar of a stellar deity" theme rather than the stellar goddess herself. Oh the other hand, Thalurzni did travel deeply mystical paths when he didn't dabble in alchemy. Fanzai and Boshan may have been a single land mass (although that makes the turtle presence even more problematic). There are civilized turtle folk on the far side of Fanzai, and there are (astonishingly few) Sofali on the Sofali islands far south of Fethlon. I would have said Lesser Darkness. The first coming of Sekever is associated with Oorsu Sara, and is resolved when Govmeranen steps down. (But see RM p.85 for problems with this.) Yothenara would be known as Okerio the Allgiver, the female principle. Not exactly the deity I would expect to be in charge of the stream of rebirth, either. In Theyalan myth, Ty Kora Tek (or Asrelia) is keeper of such a stream of rebirth. Ok. Maybe I should have said that it is Vithalash (the portion protruding into the Inner World) which I don't get - the feautureless (except for elevation and rivers) map surrounded e.g. by the Mokato Dozen with lots of features like vegetation. The place you cannot ever leave because of utter contentment. The Mokato dozen political map extends all the way to the shores of Vithalash, indicating no naval activity from Vithalash.

Which was an observation I had made, yes. Specifically this eastern sage, but apparently also the emperor sages. So do you think that the converted Turtle people left the coasts and cultivated a new land for their new ways of agriculture etc? What is the Kralori story for HeenMaroun's demise? So basically HeenMaroun created the Rebellus Terminus for utuma and reappearance as a signal from the Ultimate. Destroy the demon and start the world anew... This could refer to Orlanth (much later) starting the Lightbringers's Quest, which enabled the Dawn. In the meantime, we have oodles of emperors to cramp into the Gods War, How do you arrive at this number? I count eight provinces, plus Chen Durel. A few may have been sunk by Daruda establishing the Suam Chow. I disagree about Aptanace. His story sounds like an End of Green Age story that would fit well into the start of HeenMaroun's reign. Aptanace is born on Wanzow, but is most active in Hanjan. He, or his dynasty, may have remained as rulers of this region. The Thalurzni - Halisayan+Bodkartu combo has planetary considerations that seem to place this dynasty before the Doom Constellation. Of course, that would mean still during Yelm's emperorship, which makes the identification of Yelm with HeenMaroun slightly problematic in just the way that drove the God Learner architects of the Monomyth crazy. But then they didn't know about Murharzarm (who appears to be the son of Dendara, though). Halisayan doesn't work quite as well as Enjata-mo/KataMoripi for the early Storm Age sky. Daruda as traitor to the turtle people and cause of the sinking of the lands in the Suam Chow works for the Storm Age. And like the Sampo quest in Kalevala, is so good an enemy that his story deserves to be told twice. Revealed Mythology maps the second instance of Sekever to Herespur (p.124) and the first to Oorsu Sara (p.123), suggesting some trust in the dynastic sequence. True. What do you make of Daruda and Sh'Harkarzeel sharing the same epithet, Mover of Heavens? I thought it was in the Copper Tablets, but I seem to have misremembered - there is a passage that states that Orlanth's rise into the heavens was followed by a dragon, which should have been Sh'Harkarzeel. If Daruda's demise and Orlanth slaying the Mover of Heaven are the same event, we get Early Storm Age for this. Even before the Floods that bring the end of Metsyla. I am a bit astonished that Daruda's utuma brings the dead to the Summer Land Heaven, the intermediary resting place. For Rebirth in Yothbedta's Stream? I remember the Kralori afterlife as the dead of the Kralori entering a friendly limbo waiting for their emperor to perform utuma and guide them on to the Absolute. (My source for this might be Sandy Petersen when questioned about ShangHsa and Yanoor. Possibly on the Digest, possibly face-to-face.) But then I never really understood the status of Vithela. It doesn't seem to be part of the Inner World despite protruding into it, and it is not an Underworld. Approaching sailors perceive it as uninhabited. In the Gods War, the Vithelan civilization was present on that continent as much as on the surrounding islands. What changed? But that's a topic for next year, really, except for the possibility that we may find the Summer Land Heaven there.

In the general thread, Gianni complained about Darudism being underdeveloped, which I agree with. Darudism is one underdeveloped aspect, the sages are another one. Aptanace gets mentioned four times in this chapter and three times in the Kralori culture section. With some work, we learn about his parents, his role as ancestor of the 700 civilized people, and where he was active. p.57 p.153 p.272 p.274: p.285 (Wanzow Province) Basically, Aptanace is the embodiment of Kralori civilization. Rather than four sons founding four castes, Aptanace has 700 sons who found the civilized arts (occupations) that define Kralori culture. That's quite a bit of a social life for an eastern sage, so asceticism isn't an inherent trait of Kralori culture (or sages). The great mystic (and ascetic) sage of Kralorela (their equivalent to the Vithelan Mashunasan) is NiangMao, a contemporary of Metsyla and Shavaya who receives his own text box, mention for his mountain monastery in Puchai, and as teacher of the inventor of Kralori script (p.55). NiangMao's ideal of the Ultimate is the Void. His approach isn't named, other than as meditation (which is a basic technique common to all mystics). NiangMao is not named among the students of Oorduren, the Vithelan Sage of the High Gods: Nenduren (seeking Atrilith, the Greath Self, through Stillness), Larn Hasamador (seeking Nothing through Immotion), and Mashunasan (seeking Durapdur (Being/Not-Being) through Unrealization). The earliest emperor to take a hand in shaping Kralori civilization is Shavaya, a (human) sage. p.262 That master mystic appears to be NiangMao - Revealed Mythology p.89 names him as advisor of Shavaya. Wait - didn't we just read these achievements in the context of Aptanace? Not quite. "overcame the temptations of the Beasts" rhymes well with the Hsunchen origin of the dragon emperors. p.268 has this box on the beast people of Boshan: Sounds like overcoming the temptations of the beast is the transformation of Hsunchen (and possibly beast riders, at least more recently) into nice and orderly Kralori citizens. Does this have any ties to the dragon turtle antigod of Guilong Qiao? I wonder how the Boshani countryside - most of it uplands far from the coast - would be dominated by turtle people. Are these turtle people kin to riverine or swamp turtles rather than the sea turtles of the Sofali? Or even tortoises? This rite also casts some doubt at the claim that there were Kralori dragon hsunchen. Basically, there was a Kralori civilization before the dragons took over. TarnGatHa, HeenMaroon and Metsyla may or may not have been draconic in nature - note the draconic shape Sandy Petersen chose for the solar emperor in Gods War. Shavaya wasn't, was overcome by Sekever, and then came Daruda. The God Learners recognize Daruda as the first clearly draconic emperor of Kralorela. The Kralori Culture section (p.57) states: This sounds familiar - the dragonet or dragonewt ruler stage does pretty much the same. On the other hand, Daruda organizes the Kralori afterlife. (Except when they believe in a cycle of reincarnations, like the MaoZen story seems to imply.) The Dragon Emperor is the closest to the Egyptian Pharaoh that we find in Glorantha - a divine ruler whose passing onward also transports all the dead of his subjects along to a blissful afterlife. Sure, we get dragons instead of scarabs and Horus hawks, but the core idea of following the good ruler into the afterlife seems to apply. The nature of these afterlife isn't entirely clear to me. Here we have Daruda, who as a mystic achieved the Void even before his teacher did, but returned as a Bhodisatva entity or Dragonet in order to help the people of the East. p.262 Shouldn't that be "The Void" rather than Larn Hasamador's "Nothing"? Rigorous discipline sounds different from NiangMao's 1000 years fast. Probably austerities. Given the "timing", Daruda's studies must have been during Sekever's reign. Sekever's unkralori ways may have contributed to Daruda's austerities.