Joerg

There are plenty ways to corrode this world's stainless steel, too (although I have witnessed one very tricky alloy that could only be dissolved in hydrochloric acid, but not in any oxydizing acid mixture like the laboratory go-to Aqua Regia, or even hydrogen peroxide added to hydrochloric acid). I have often wished for hollywood or fantasy-strength acids in the lab, Dissolving solids in acid takes rather long, even if you use boiling acid. Whatever will dissolve bronze armor in a matter of melee rounds won't stop for enchanted metals of any element. Coated or laquered metal armor will withstad acid or other corrosion for longer. Acid will still make the leather or textile used to fasten the armor brittle to the point of rending or breaking, in the real world in a couple of minutes unless hot and highly concentrated. Hot concentrated sulphuric or phosphoric acid (above water boiling temperature) will sear away layers of skin and flesh within melee rounds, feeding on the water that can be mixed with the liquid, heating it even more, leaving nasty scars if treated immediately, or crippling the affected location. Metal will have some surface corrosion from the same amount of exposure, little more. Galvanic elements - i.e. different metals in contact with one another, and some corroding medium - will accelerate corrosion greatly in the real world. E.g. using rivets made from (slightly) different metal. There are metals that work fine under water. Copper and lead don't corrode much. Bronze and real world iron are chemically more active. The brinier the water, the more corrosive it can get - this seems to be true in Glorantha as well, with the Baths of Nelat winning the competition for briniest liquid. With salt (chloride) added, stainless steel doesn't remain stainless, as my lab sink can attest.

IMO cannot be - Wind Whistler would retain his wings. And he would outsize a Lord dragonewt (aka winged priest stage).

Duck refugees after 1613 would be logical anywhere around Dragon Pass. And there have been some ducks in the region already earlier, as Gonn Orta was interested in visiting ducks for a while, inspecting any that would enter his castle.

Conversion might be an option. As long as you have the original bitmap layers in your files, converting the map to vector automatically should be manageable (I personally would need to rehash GIS course material from a few years ago to do so, though). The stamped tree symbols for instance can be reduced to point data, which then could be assigned to a measurement of point density, or as point coordinates for the tree symbol which then could be adjusted to scale. QGIS has routines for recreating the isohypses (elevation lines) or the colored areas indicating an elevation interval as vector objects. Alternatively, the vectorization can be done when zooming in to areas, both where there are more detailed maps available (like for the core regions of Dragon Pass and Prax) and where there aren't. I have developed other settings with such a method, manually back then, but one can have algorithms that undo the virtual smoothening that the transition from the (yet hypothetical) more detailed map to the existing map created.

The Chariot of Lightning is rather recent, at most a quarter of a century old. Surantyr's discovery on Top of the World might be linked to the insights of Yolanela's son, as a new phenomenon that sooner or later would be picked up upon north of the Nidan/Rockwood chain, but other than meeting on that mountaintop or flying there and down on the other side of the range, there is little chance for contact. IIRC the cult of IO is somehow geographically linked to the chain of castles built towards the Charg border, which might actually make it a "weapon" that is as sharp against storm opponents as it may be against Lunar ones. And I get Tarumath vibes here, although (so far) without suppressing the rest of Orlanth.

You are wearing your Lightbringer hat here. Please try the Pelorian hat where the Yelmic Priesthood interacts with a god important to you personally but takes the good stuff away to their jealous emperor god rather than leaving it for you and yours, except for a few breadcrumbs that make you and yours productive for Them. The Invisible God is the Lawgiver, the source of the laws enacted by the Malkioni castes. You might argue that now the laws are here, you don't need the lawgiver any more, but the same might be applied to Lightbringer deities who excuse their inactivity by the Compromise. From the Invisible God emanated Malkion, the common ancestor. Even if he became Grandfather Mortal. Malkion's incarnation as son of Storm and Sea still bears that divine ancestry of the Invisible God. Malkion is The Man, the humanist approach to understanding the world. Divinity was picked up, often by descent, but it is a Man's World, not some Celestial Court descendants'. The Yelmic lower and higher priesthood... imperial solar families... same thing. Nowadays tinted red and mystically overwritten. What does the appropriation of practically all the wealth in Orlanti society by the temple give back to the individuals other than some meat at temple feasts? Orlanthi property conventions are pretty close to "real existing socialism" with the means of production of wealth controlled by the temple "for the people". Next thing you will tell me that Fonritians might figure out there is an alternative to a slavocracy? Caste is all-important as it defines your position in society. (Say among others the Dara Happans and the Teshnans, and other than Hsunchen and Orlanthi probably everyone else, too.) It is the concept of caste that prevents these folk from figuring out. Hrestolism offers the way out of that trap with the men-of-all. Rokarism butchers the Hrestoli-shaped Malkionism. It is a mafioso take-over of the Enerali lands that belonged to the God Learners in the Tanier valley, claiming the title of a drowned and lost (Hrestoli!) kingdom with a zealous, likely monastic order of sorcerers and a few somewhat Malkionized Enerali nobility failing to connect with the Autarchy and instead recalling their Galanini roots. That unholy alliance overcomes the disorganized Old Way Hrestoli at the Asgolan Fields and declares all Hrestolism as Doubleplusungood. Rokari watchers are placed like the Stasi to report and stamp out all traditional ways, all hopes for reincarnation, etc, except among the Pithdarans who manage to play "good orthodox Rokari" while retaining their lineages, giving any Pithdaran selected to join the Rokari zzabur caste a vast advantage in connections and ancestral magic. While Leplain can try to win over individual Pithdaran sorcerers as zealots for their way, those are likely to meet accidents or other such problems, creating a mafia inside a mafia-turned-gestapo. Jeff is the first to admit that the sorcery rules in RQG cover the abilities of Lhankor Mhytes and similar part time sorcerers rather than professionals with access to greater Invisible God insights. The Rokari zzaburi have accomplices in the pagan-mounted-Horali-elevated-to-Talar caste as their enforcers lavished in luxuries none of the sorcerers gets to enjoy. The peasantry attempted to get some security against these enforcers building walls and ditches, but those were verboten by the enforcers. Other than being inflexibly stratified caste societies? The "justice" of Yelm or the Esrolian Grandmothers is similar, and Orlanth is the (ever so slightly) reformed successful bully. Maybe the problem is the emulation of ancient world societies with such social stratification and a vast population accepting the divinity/exceptionalism of the leaders. The history of the Serpent Kings and their fights with the Pendali is a bit more complicated than that. Those struggles were followed by decline of Seshnela and recovery from that decline, with further struggles against exiled Pendali, Enerali, and Pralori conquerors of the lower Tanier valley. Tanisor was joined to Seshnela as on and off as the Serpent crown's influence declined and recovered. The populations assimilated by Seshnela during the Dawn Age were Pendali, Enerali, and possibly indigenous Hykimi.

And even better, Death Eaters are us. It is Voldemort's power fantasy come true. Which may be why I fail to find this palatable. Rokari Talar palace life is great - Mhugal empire great, plus licentious as long as you keep your sexual organs reserved for other Talar caste ones. Mel Brooks was right, it is good to be the king, or someone close to him. It probably takes Fonritian non-owned or the Moonson palace to live in similar conditions. Just like Athenian democracy, participation in sovereignty for everybody (male, Athenian, post-adolescent, free, tax-paying). Yes, the Rokari system is fairly easy to accept on its own, unless offered alternatives (like the previous Hrestoli system, with its hope for re-incarnation, a running chance at man-of-all-dom, etc.). Castle Coast sorcerer-knight princes are as easy to accept on their own, marred only by the thinness of that veneer of splendour. As perfectly logical, just the losers of two battles against Rindland barbarian upstarts pretending to be Seshnegi because a usually very minor God Learner ancestor married into wealthy Enerali nobility at the end of the Autarchy. Rokari society is pretty bog standard fantasy stuff, with a bleak "you only live once" message that one might call "realist". Yet Rokari dead will go to Hell to face Daka Fal much like any other dead will, and Rokari ancestors receive worship much like Hrestoli ancestors do (and a lot of the Rokari ancestors are Hrestoli ancestors when they aren't barbarians who worshipped the Old Gods). There is no philosophical vision discernible other than "don't repeat the God Learner mistakes" while repeating them. Selling a clearly stratified caste society outside of supremacist or fascist circles (the latter including most of the marxist/leninist/maoist brands) is a fairly hard sell to our world's modern age players, at best a form of "guilty pleasure" when indulging in power fantasies.

I have a hard time trying to paint Rokari wizards as something palatable. Not so much Marxist, really more "Aryan" in ripping (male only) individuals out of their family environment, robbing them of ancestral benefits, and indoctrinating them very early on, with probably some "waste disposal" as individuals fail to live up to the expectations of their likewise indoctrinated superiors. Monastic sorcerers have been a thing since long before Rokarism massacred the tenets of Malkioni society and philosophy by cutting off whatever displeased the founder(s), which was mainly any teaching derived from Hrestol despite Hrestolism being the original form of non-Brithini Malkionism (with the Ingareens and the Waertagi rare or rather distant outliers). I don't see evidence for under-age admission to these monastic orders of sorcerers, though, it looks like an alternative for zzabur caste members to pursue a return to henosis. No idea whether there were monastic sorcerer orders that also accepted Men-of-All born to other castes. (At least one of these survives basically unchanged from Makanist Seshnela, in Jonatela.) The question must be allowed whether caste assigned by parentage or by order of birth basically at birth is any better than ripping out young children from their destiny defined by these castes to become an utterly vulnerable individual bereft of any security net while training for wizardhood, though. The "logic" of the caste system assigned by birth was (successfully) questioned by Siglat and his companions.

That's not quite how I read the histories of Seshnela and Akem. First of all, Orlanthi or rather Theyalan theism is super effective, and still doesn't manage to maintain domination over subject peoples for even a century. Lightbringer missionaries did not promote imperial ambitions (it was the Bright Empire which did that), although it is fair to say that the Lightbringer expansion sought both converts and colonialization area, especially in their interaction with the Hykimi and the Old Gods Beast Totem agriculturalists like the Enerali and the Enjoreli. The Pendali were a Basmoli dynasty who ruled over conquered farmers, as far as I can discern, and probably made those Seshna-worshipping farmers (who might have a degree of forgotten Kachisti ancestry) build their fortress cities and temples for them. The Pralori empire covered the region east of the Tanier all the way into Entruli Slontos, wrapping around Tarinwood, but apparently avoiding conflict with the Enerali in the north. Other Hykimi had temple cities, too, like the City of Wolves in Telmoria. Something similar may have been going on there. To come to a point, the tribes opposing Seshnela (and quite likely similar in Fronela) were not simple non-agriculturalists, but usually a military caste of conquerors ruling from edifices far beyond their Beast Totem tribal technologies. Not that different from what the Malkioni do themselves. There is hardly anything about the worker and farmer caste of the Malkioni in the Seshnegi and (much less documented) Fronelan histories. All the info we have is on Talars, with Zzaburi and to some degree Horali getting mentioned (or drawn into the Man-of-All education). Effectively, being agricultural is a resource, but not a defining feature of the Malkioni protagonists, either. The Malkioni priesthood is mostly limited to ancestral deities, with propitiation of or negotiation with non-ancestral deities left to the sorcerers. That's how their theism is weaker than Theyalan theism, indeed, but it is about on par with Pelorian limitation for their priests and holy people. THe sorcerers interact with alien deities, usually from a position of some power rather than as supplicants. (Diplomatic or mercantyle approaches are the Talar caste job, the Zzaburi seem to use domination techniques on the servants of deities, with the occasional rewards or baits for the big ones.) Yes, their Theism and Animism is worse than the quite sophisticated Serpent Brotherhood shamanism. The Pendali magicians who interacted with Dark rather than Basmoli or Likitan deities were called sorcerers, too, probably for their "fishing outside of the hereditary pool". The Lightbringer mix is really effective, enough so that the shaman-warrior Heort paved the way for Hantrafal's sacrificing. Sacrifice is a bloody affair in Theyalan practice, as it is in Pelorian and Earth cult practices, but the Theyalan mix the blood with a very high amount of personal mana compared to the Pelorians (who make up for less devoted individual mana donation by bringing huge crowds). The downside of the Theyalan way is that a lot of the magic gained that way becomes personal magic rather than community magic, with the individual often able to decide which leaders to follow (at least among the Orlanthi). Pelorian theist worship and Malkioni Invisible God worship aren't that dissimilar except for the blood sacrifices in Pelorian rites. Malkioni don't have to sacrifice their steeds or tractors to support the Zzaburi magic. Pelorian sacrifice is overseen and performed by the lower Yelmic priesthood who funnel much of the magic to the Empire rather than the cult actually receiving the sacrifice. Invisible God rites overseen by the Zzaburi don't use up valuable means of production (other than the participants' time), unlike the bloodbaths of the Theists (who do give secondary use to the sacrificial beasts, but who feed rather high amounts of herd beasts to the rites). The ancestral deities don't demand that much in terms of beasts slaughtered for feasts, either. The Land Goddesses still ask for blood, but not necessarily herd beast blood - possibly they ask for worshippers' gifts of blood, or similar. How is a sorcerer caste different from other hereditary temple families in Orlanthi lands or Esrolia? Not even Harmast became a chief priest, those roles are fairly firmly in lineages. (Not that Harmast lacked such a lineage, although a defeated one.) That may not be that different from the situation in Danmalastan, really. Not so much in the Zzabur text of Revealed Mythologies, but blatant in the Brithos text which has the three "upper" castes from a different mother than the worker caste. A mother whose hills happen to house one of the Vadeli castes... Why not European colonialism in the Caribbean or on the American mainland? (WIth a repeat performance of the combination of Koryonos conquest following the plague...) The Orlanthi instead sit on the conquests of their ancestors, much like British peers like to boast: Hill barbarians descending into the lowlands, taking over previous populations as their farmers and builders. In a way, Malkioni and Hill Barbarian expansion come with reversed sequence. The Godtime Kachasti came as missionaries and diplomats, while historical non-Brithos Malkioni came as conquerors (if only starting out to prevent being conquered). Hill barbarians first came as conquerors, later re-awakening distant (conqueror) kin as Lightbringer missionaries.

Malkioni society doesn't have to be better than Theyalan theism, but the fact that it is still around unlike e.g. the Serpent Brotherhood or the Pendali/Enjoreli speaks for the usefulness of the sorcerers. Using the Rokari aberration against the Hrestoli who believe in reincarnation isn't quite fair. The parasitic character of the elites is debatable, but it is a feature of the "Bronze Age" and Ancient societies that Glorantha seeks to mirror that there are ostentatious elites for magical benefits. Zzaburi "ostentation" is different from Talar ostentation (which is similar to theist elites and their ostentation).

Brithini and by extension also Malkioni society is designed to provide ideal support to the sorcerers, who in return provide magic to protect and enhance society. Generalists on the other hand are easier to support with limited resources, or otherwise you risk that you don't have the specialist a challenge requires. This is actually an argument in favor of sorcerers versus theist priests, as sorcerers can research spells for more context than theists limited to their gods' feats. (Theists practicing creative heroquesting are able to find or develop feats that are relevant for a challenge, though.)

No doubt about that. What I find unfeasable is for Avalor/Avlor to enter history under a different name as one of Halwal's long-time companions. While that is a possibility, Greg's dynasties have only very few direct re-uses of ruler names. Gloranthan rulers tend to have recurring name elements plus variations, often with elements from deity names. I think that a single bearer of that name is the most probable scenario. Jonat started his kingdom only around 1050, barely managing to extract his Makanist sorcerers from the Breaking of Seshnela to his homeland. The reason why I got the idea that Vorthan might have been introduced after the presence of the God Learners is the fact that the God Learners were well aware of Tolat as an enemy deity (from their conflict with the Loper People) and then the experiences in Eest. Any God Learner worth that name would have made the identification of the two red planet deities and prove their identity, probably by transferring items or myths from one to the other. Since this did not happen, I wonder why not. And one possibility is that the God Learners never met Vorthan because he was introduced only after they had been overcome. The Lightbringers (and especially Harmast) would have brought awareness of Shargash/Jagrekriand to the Fronelan Orlanthi (including the future Jonatings). Vorthan as an acceptable face of Jagrekriand (about as acceptable as Zorak Zoran) does have a place in a temple of all war gods. The Temple of War might be attracting the Kingdom of War... If the Jonating kings are the chief priests of Vorthan but don't have access to the sword, there is a separation of the cult from its most potent artifact.Go What keeps the God Learners from stratifying the red planet deities, taking each of their special magics, applying them to the other side, and utilizing them for their own nefarious purposes? The God Learners identified the Teshnan fire deities Zitro Argon, Somash and Solf as the Dara Happan celestial brothers Dayzatar, Yelm and Lodril (known through Dawn Age Theyalan syncretism rather than direct exposure), and probably applied their knowledge to anticipate or subvert local secrets.

Would the islanders import or export wool? Depictions of Islanders show them usually in the (absence of) summer dress, with no indication of woolen tunics or mantles. The latter wouldn't be too practical when fishing in Dark and Storm Season, which is spawning season for quite a few commercially important fish and hence high season for getting into the boats, even in the face of storms and tidal surges. Sheep are one of the most common beasts to graze on tidal flats. On some of the Atlantic islands north of Scotland (Orkneys, Shetlands, Faeroes) there are sheep kept entirely in the tidal zone, subsisting on sea grass and sea weed. Colder climate sheep like the ones from Frisia have itchy wool, but that might be good for felting. Did anybody export raw wool? I would take the Sartarite numbers (presented in the GM Screen Adventure Book in the Cattle Raid scenario, IIRC), with about 80% as many cattle as there are (rural) humans. Jeff's recent map of tidal flats shows a vast area between the Syphon and Bullflood estuaries that remain dry for most of the tidal cycle, and sometimes entirely during a cycle. This would be great grazing land for sheep, if the Frisian inhabitants of the Hallig small islands with artificial hills for housing are anything to go by. (Such artificial hills were there already during the Roman Iron Age, possibly earlier.) Where is this from?

I don't think that that timetable works out - Avalor left Teshnos rather late before the cataclysms, and Halwal's liberation of Fronela started significantly earlier. It would be nice to know more about the associations of the kidnappers of his wife. About Vorthan being the same deity as Shargash / Tolat, the likelihood would be better if the God Learners had named him that way, and if the deity was introduced only by Avalor or his foes (a possible explanation for the abduction of his wife), why was it separated from the Red Sword?

What makes you think that nature has anything to do with peace and love? Ok, we have "mother nature", but it is a struggle of eating and being eaten. (One dog walk later:) I don't think one is needed. A deep French kiss would be sufficient for the dryad to give birth to a child of the partner, regardless of sex or plumbing.

There is a difference between an elf bow, and elf-grown bow (like the ones used by the Rathori, whose forests don't really have good timber for making bow staves), and a plant including its spirit magically shaped into a bow. In a way, elf bows are lesser dryads, and may be born as such. A sufficiently friendly dryad might offer to give birth to the child of an adventurer in bow shape, on the Other Side.

I wonder whether Ethilrist seeks to experience Joy of the Heart in Hell? Being slain on a battlefield is a minor inconvenience for him, a bit of a free ride into Hell for another attempt. They may have to wait a certain time for his return before being set free, I suppose.

Who would give an iron cooking pot to a Pentan slave chef? The point of Beat-Pot's helmet is that it is the one he had to work with when he was a slave, a piece of continuity.

Just a small detour on Ethilrist's return from Hell, then...

Bevara is clearly an expression of Ernalda, not of Chalana Arroy. She is the combat medic, the supporter who rushes into a combat situation to extract wounded combatants, trained in self-defense and battle awareness.

I don't see any evidence for an agimori ancestry of the Marazi - they are in all likelihood of the same Eastern phenotype as the Teshnans and the Sofali near them, with less (if any) Zaranistangi or Wareran admixture. Tolat is generally depicted as a red-skinned god depicted as the dominant phenotype of his worshippers (if there are such pictorial representations of the deity at all). From the description of their hardwood craft, statuary of Tolat on Trowjang might be limited to the phallus. Having a deity as a parent doesn't necessarily mean a longer life. Often it means that one's flame burns brighter rather than longer.

How much is Malkioni worship of deities or ancestors tied to their concepts of afterlife? Do they join their deities after death? Hrestoli sects in general believe in reincarnation, rather than the complete destruction of self upon (irreversible) death. The individual intellect won't transmigrate intact, though.

Running Water is a matter of definition. The mythical explanation for this vampiric weakness is the relationship between any river and the Underworld river Styx whose waters are lethal to these undead. Artificial rivers like the Good Canal or Belintar's New River have the same mythical resonance. For an undine pushing a ditch of water in a circle to achieve this might be a stretch, but a friendly Naiad in undine form should be able to provide running water of sufficient quality. Such a water entity would still be within attack range for the Vampire, though. Using a single undine to dissolve a vampire should be impossible. Rain doesn't hurt vampires, which means that dropping an undine on a vampire does not qualify as running water. Does armor protect a vampire forced into running water, or does the water eat away at the vampire's aura which may extend further than the armor? Arms length distance or having a boat's planks or skins between the vampire and the current is established as sufficient shielding.

The next best source I can offer would be the Stafford House campaign notes on Redbird and his companions taking the magical road from Cliffhome to Stormwalk Mountain, which seems to be the first stage of the Gorangi Vak heroquest, with several of the participants succeeding in getting a Sky Bull mount while actually on their way to unmask Temertain in Seapolis.

The two most populous sects of Malkionism, the Rokari and the Loskalmi New Idealist Hrestoli, have Zzabur castes composed entirely of sorcerers who have mastered techniques and runes. Both these sects are "meritocratic" in that the caste adopts candidates who can learn sorcery from outside of the caste. The Rokari test boys from all castes for aptitude and put the most promising into what looks like monastic academies or possibly individual apprenticehoods with practicing wizards. The Loskalmi observe their pool of Men-of-All and candidates for aptitude, officially without regard for parental caste, and give them preferred schooling in the prerequisite skills and (once henosis was achieved) in spells, runes and techniques. However, there is a third group of Malkioni who are neither Rokari nor New Idealist Hrestoli. Most of these are members of other forms and offshoots of Hrestolism, including all Arkatism, the Galvosti of northern Safelster, the Makanist Seshnegi of the Castle Coast, Pithdaros and hidden elsewhere in the Quinpolic League and Safelster, and in Fronela outside of Loskalm and Junora. These older forms of Hrestolism recognize a hereditary zzabur caste, where the ability to master techniques and runes is not guaranteed by the RQG rules (unless there is a cheat or caste blessing going on that people born into this caste have a minimal INT of 13). Or alternatively something similar to shamanic taboos to acquire that intellectual capacity, or through gifts and geases masked as Caste Magic. Roughly half of the offspring of hereditary Zzabur caste members will be female. Declaring those as Menena caste is a convenient cop-out where such a thing is the official reading. There are sorceresses. The New Idealist Hrestoli have a portion of female men-of-all who can advance to the wizard caste. There may be the "hidden female" Rokari zzaburi boys, but that is a trope that has been done ad nauseum already for Roman Catholic clergy. There might be a Menena Caste cotery of sorceresses, a secret society with ancient hidden knowledge as gnostic as the Arkati. Whether that would be authentical pre-Dawn Brithos stuff or "re-discovered" in the Malkioni exile needn't be detailed. And it may have different sects. These might have correspondences to major Malkioni philosophical texts opening these for the Menena sorcery, guides how to interprete the Abiding Book or its predecessors for Menenan sorcery. There might be a "woman-of-Menena" status? One major filter for sorcerers is the literacy requirement. In Malkioni society, there is literacy outside of the Zzabur caste. The Talar caste administrators rely on written records, and while there could be a model where all scribes are counted as Zzabur caste members regardless whether they know techniques or not, one of the criteria for achieving Man-of-All status is basic literacy. Loskalm has a broad range of people learning basic sorcery while training for Man-of-All status, whether with the intention to reach wizard stage or just for becoming the adventuring questing troubleshooter. There are Man-of-All sorcerers on the Castle Coast and in non-Loskalmi Hrestoli sects, too. Caste Magic (however that will turn out) might be applied knowledge rather than inherited rune or battle magic in cases where "sorcery is something you know" applies. The Dormal cult teaches Open Seas both as a spell for sorcerers knowing the relevant runes (and technique) and as a stand-alone sorcery spell that doesn't require either henosis with the Invisible God or having sorcerously mastered any runes or techniques. There still is no officially published information how the Dormal cult does this... Open Seas for non-wizards could be a precedent for hedge sorcery - knowledge of a specific sorcery spell that cannot be manipulated, that is cast as the spell skill rather than as a rune ratig or POW times five. Pavic masonry is a dwarf-taught application of knowledge, hence sorcery. The Vadeli sell sorcery to whoever pays their outrageous fees and is willing to live with the inevitable corruption their magic may bring. Most of their customers may be talar caste or men-of-all, the latter possibly with basic understanding of techniques and runes, the former rarely. The alchemists' potions might be another such case, with the casting of the sorcery hidden in the alchemy skill. The alchemists "master" alchemical recipes, though, making that alchemy skill something like a catch-all combination of runes and techniques applicable to procucing potions. This might have been learned from the Mostali, whether through Openhandist teaching or clandestine copying of their methods. Crafting guilds have knowledge-based secrets that may appear fairly mundane to us. Architects, irrigation planners and surveyors have methods to measure angles, elevations and areas, and astronomers calculate planetary paths and their interactions with the constellations behind them.