metcalph

I disagree that we have been told that the Rokari society (edit: other than the Zzaburi) is entirely non-sorcerous and I disagree that the Zzaburi are layered on top of it. There are other ways to construe the statements made in the Guide and elsewhere about the Rokari that do not require us to assume the absolute worst about them. Again that's a claim with which I disagree. They are one of the centres of civilization and they once managed to conquer the whole world. A much better way of phrasing this might be, whereas in other societies, magical power resides in the temples, Seshnelan magical power resides in the wizards. That way, one doesn't have to tie oneself in knots by having to claim that the average seshnegi sucks at spirit or rune magics if their wizards are powerful. Because that's really confusing two different things. Parasitic means they give absolutely nothing in return, which is not supported by the sources. You can make the same claim about Esrolia in that magical power flows into the Temples (and Esrolia is a high unequal society). But it does not follow that the temples provide nothing in return and so it should not follow that the Wizards provide nothing in returm,. The peasants do not have their own entirely independent source of beneficial magic. They worship the gods at the direction of the nobility - Seshna Likita for example is an ancestor of the Kings of Seshnela and so her priestesshoods would be restricted to women of noble rank for example. Both the peasants and the nobles also receive Caste Magic through the guidance of the Wizards and so on, thereby creating an interlocking society. Yes, the situation is unequal in the favour of the Nobles and Wizards but pretty much every civilized society in glorantha is similarly unequal. As for solving the dilemma, I think the first step would have been to avoid making cartoonishly sweeping statements about Seshnegi society.

That's quite claim which I don't think is true.

There is any number of ways in which Rightness could be used. 1) Rightness as Rune Points to cast caste sorcery. This has been used in the past for Godunya in AH Gods of Glorantha (and Greg has said at one of the conventions that he thought the Black Arkati would cast sorcery this way). 2) Rightness as a Free INT for caste sorcery. 3) Rightness as a Logical Fetch. Non-sorcery spells must overcome a Malkioni's POW + Rightness to succeed. 4) Rightness as the equivalent of the Vessel in Sandy's sorcery rules. As for acquiring caste magic, I'm thinking it's really enchantments made by the Zzaburi using the Malkioni's own POW. Some provide knowledge of a spell, others a magical gift or ability and still others knowledge of a Logical Form (for example a smith might know how to create Logical Swords)

Because the Brithini who also use caste magic don't use spirit magic or rune spells. The sorcerors of Dragon Pass have less spells than their theistic/shamanic peers. The Malkioni have loads more spells.

Except the origin of the cult is a "simple local phenomenon" (Guide p324) which kinda rules out the creation by atheistic sorcerers (and its far from clear that the cult even has any). Stories about how so-and-so supernatural beings are frauds perpetrated by criminals for real estate shenanigans have been used far too often on Scooby-Doo.

I assume the cult is from Otkorion (the Chariot of Lightning) by the way of Galastar. For the most part it would be a conventional Orlanthi cult. How its sorcery works is a Big Question. Perhaps its Rune Lords use Malkioni techniques to acquire henosis with Orlanth and get additional magic from that? Or if it has Wizards, they would be adept in Storm Magics? Greg at one point was thinking the whole thing was a big con but that's not a palatable solution.

Not how it's shown in the rules. There spirit magics are something you have and are cast by you. The colour that the spells are really spirits acting on your behalf is not mechanistically present in the RQ rules. So I don't see why Caste Magic should be mechanistically *not* be magic cast by the Malkioni. As far as I am concerned, Caste Magic is a mental interaction with the Gods that founded the Castes: Dronar, Talar, Horal and Zzabur. This neoplatonic awareness is achieved Rightness and gives a variety of magics (Caste specific sorcery) and gifts (like those of the shamans, Yelmalio and Humakt). The sorcery that is present in the rules is achieved through mental interaction with Malkion the One Mind, a superior being to and Creator of the Four Caste Founders as well as every other God in Glorantha (okay, probably not Vith. And probably not Dragons etc). The magic Sorcerers has a freedom untrammelled by the limits of caste - they accept Zzabur's assistance because they are standing on the shoulders of giants. Secondly, following the Sorcery is "something that you know". It seems to me to contrary to Malkioni philosophy to have Caste Magic be Rune Magic - it should have the look and feel of Sorcery even though it will never be as strong or as versatile as sorcery in the RQG rules.

That's quite an inference to draw from only two listed examples. Since the Malkioni invented sorcery and organized their society by it, I do feel it would be unlikely that they would have a parallel system of magic that isn't sorcery. As for sorcery being the domain of the Zzaburi, all that's necessary is that Caste Magic be a limited version of Sorcery and incapable of innovation.

It's kinda vague in there and the particular ability described in detail was kinda heroquesty. But I imagine their Horals (as well as the Red Vadeli) can use weapon-related sorcery for their caste magic with spells such as Boon of Kargan Tor, Neutralize Armour and Ward Against Weapons. Their mortal counterparts have some of these abilities (Boon of Kargan Tor is avoided because better spirit and rune magics are available).

The Brithini Horals will have Caste Magic. In Greg's unfinished Arkat novel, the leading Horals in the Brithini army had various magical abilities.

You really have to use examples. The Loskalmi do not trust Wizards in general and reserve the position for Men-of-All they trust. The Seshnegi are caste-static. The Safelstrans do not have caste but their sorcerers tends to be involved with Arkati Secret Societies. In all cases, the Sorcerors composes less than 1 in 100 of the population and a sorcerer that quits to become a fighter is an unusual story rather than sometime that routinely happens in Malkioni society.

I'm assuming a warrior picking up sorcery because the topic was teaching sorcery to the non-Zzaburi. A Zzaburi that starts prancing about in armour is likely breaking caste and becoming magically weaker.

The trouble that post could also be filled by a magical specialist in either rune or spirit magic, who are much more common on ground and more effective than your sorcery specialist fighter. You mention that a sorcery fighter is more likely to cast their magics on other people but that also applies to the magical support specialists of other kinds - HeroQuest RPG even had an Ernaldan subcult for combat support. To get RAW for 50% chance for the above spells requires 50% writing, three spell skills, two Runic Knowledges (Death and Stasis) and two Techniques (Summon and Dispel). The Runes and Techniques alone is four seasons, the spells another three. All this is becoming significantly costly timewise for a warrior who studies in sorcery, so much so that he'd be better off not getting involved in combat at all. As for the magic, he's going to boost nine other warriors. Let's say that he has 30 magic points. That's lot for somebody in the Colymar. That's about 3 magic points of spells each which is barely better than the other warriors' own magics (bladesharp 3 etc). The numbers aren't stacking up. To be effective, the sorcerer has to be in the role full-time, which proves the Malkioni reasoning about Caste. If you want the Malkioni warriors to have sorcerous combat effects then the appropriate mechanism is, I think, Caste Magic and Rightness (My own thinking: treat the Rightness Score as a Free INT and assign sorcery spells to taste). Or you could give them a Hrestoli Runespell that gives them the temporary runic knowledge of a specific rune and +10% to spell skills per magic point expended in the Runespell. Which has the added advantage of getting up the nose of the nearest Wizard.

Here we really get into legal philosophy. The Rokari Wizard has an obligation to uphold Caste. If he doesn't, he loses Rightness and becomes magically weaker. Not acting contrary to caste is simple enough. Encouraging others to break caste (ie by teaching them sorcery) is reasonable but the lines in the sand start to become less defined. Doing nothing while somebody else visibly breaks caste? If he's a weak peasant, then the answer is clear. But what if he's a powerful noble? Having a vague clue that someone or somewhere is possible breaking caste. A few excitable wizards might think action is necessary but others might want more evidence before they are moved to act. And of course, following your caste so harshly that it oppresses others and causes them to break caste. Nothing "wrong" here.

If we are talking about the Seshnegi, I doubt they would teach sorcery to anybody of a lower caste than himself. The wizard would lose Rightness for breaking Caste or enabling its breach. A Hrestoli or an Arkati (in seshnela) would know of sorcery and be willing to teach it to others but this is secret society type hijinks. Okay, here's where I have a problem. Sorcery is simply not a parallel source of magical power in the way that Spirit and Rune Magic are. One has to devote time and effort in it to be anywhere good at it. A non-caste Zzaburi learning a sorcery spell has a magic that has a low chance of success and is limited by literacy. For the effort anybody puts into sorcery, the person choosing more conventional magics is going to come out ahead. For example a warrior with boost damage is going to be at a disadvantage when he's up against somebody with True Sword or FirebBlade. Likewise if a warrior is going to depend on sorcerous healing, he's going to end up like Monty Python's Black Knight before he gets anywhere good with it. So is sorcery completely useless to non-Zzaburi? No. What you should be looking at is the what magic would be useful to them that cannot be easily duplicated with spirit or rune magic. For the Loskalmi, there's contact with the Invisible God.

"This is not intended to be a finished product, and is subject to change by Greg at any time for any or no reason whatsoever" Middle Sea Empire p2

The myth that the God Learners stole was the Lightbringers Quest which had been identified during the Gbaji Wars by Harmast Barefoot. People (including the Malkion) have worshipped the Orlanthi Gods long before this without knowing this secret. The LBQ was uncovered as a result of Orlanthi HeroQuesting by Harmast. Contrary to what you say, the Orlanthi did have HeroQuesting in that period and were one of the two main practitioners of it, the others being the Arkati. The God Learners didn't get into HeroQuesting until the destruction of the Autarchy circa 740 ST and subsequent looting of Arkati secrets.

Atrox isn't HQ lore but Hero Wars RPG lore. The Church no longer exists and Ethilrist really only believed in himself. Atrox may still be in Glorantha but I strongly doubt that anybody in Black Horse County has heard of him.

This is really my speculation rather than anything hard and fast. The Seshnegi nobility could ask a sorcerer to teach them and the latter would be screwed if he refuses. In practice because sorcery is so difficult and at odds with the noble's lifestyle, few nobles actually bother. If they wanted quick power, they would worship a demonic ancestor (like Kraljiid Guide p417) and the only people able to stop them are the other nobles. The Loskalmi Guardians are trained in sorcery. Their sorcery tends to be limited in scope and most of their magic would come from an Ascended Master. The Men-of-All are quite good in the sorcery they know but still rely on Ascended Masters and stuff they picked up from the heroquests. Their wizards are quite skilled after many years of practice but their nobles tend to be the same as the Men-of-All. Based on the published material, the Black Arkati reserve sorcery for the Illuminates among them. I think that other colleges might permit sorcery training much earlier but as a general aid to becoming illuminated among other school goals. As for the cost, Weapons and Equipment has costs for teaching on p118

That's correct. There's multiple possible answers for that. One is that Arkat was not a Horali but a Man-of-All worshipping the Invisible God. In any event, you are using an little known event that occurred about at least thousand years ago to determine what Malkioni society must be like now. But the Malkioni today don't really have any clue about how Arkat broke faith or why it was received so badly. The Seshnelans would probably say that is what comes of being a Man-of-All and that is why you should trust them, unlike for example a Horali Humakti. The Arkati would say he was practicing Common Sense. The Loskalmi don't really care about Arkat. Because the Middle Sea Empire (remember that it's obsolesent in terminology about missionizing) wasn't about converting the natives, but acquiring the right to rule their lands and the ability to investigate their mythology from a position of power. Over time, places like Teshnos and Fonrit would have become Malkioni countries if the God Learners hadn't destroyed themselves first. They didn't practice them. They practiced similar religions but weren't satisfied with what they had. The Emanationists probably believed the Monomyth gave them the true forms of the Gods that allowing the subjects of their Empire to continue to worship indigenous versions was an error. They weren't trying to stop their subjects from worshipping the Gods, they were trying to ensure they worshipped the correct Gods. Well as I've pointed out to you, the MSE has a lot of language that it no longer relevant. RuneQuest has gone back to the earlier version of the Malkioni as presented in Cults of Prax, Cults of Terror and Wyrms Footprints. For example That's pretty hard to reconcile with a supposedly montheistic culture, no? Except that pagan is only mentioned once in the Guide (p127) which is legacy text from RQ3 about an event in the Dawn Ages. It is not used when describing the Malkioni relationships with the Barbarians and not even in the context of the Seshnelan Warrior Societies (who are practically Hsunchen in origin). Because the Westerners basically acquired the Orlanthi pantheon back in the Storm Age after Zzabur expelled them. But unlike other gloranthans, the Seshnegi were always trying to make their gods bigger and better. As far back as Cults of Prax, the Seshnegi It wasn't enough that the Nobility remained true to their ancestors. They also wanted their ancestors to be the best Gods ever and that was something their wizards were all to happy to help out with. That lead to tragedy in the Imperial Age and a hands off from the Wizards in the Modern Age. (And if you are wondering about the specific mention of the Dawn Age, back then Seshnela in the Dawn Age was the only stuff that Greg had written about - Imperial and Modern Seshnela was something inchoate at the time of writing I understand. The people who worship the Solar Pantheon are in Peloria and associated with Gbaji. Good luck in trying to convince people to become Solars. And put the women in charge? Are you nuts?!? Because Sorcery can only be practiced by literate magicians (ie the 1%). Trying to keep the non-Zzaburi from worshipping the Gods is an exercise in futility that makes them irrelevant as the Brithini. The Malkioni who worship the Gods are the strongest Malkioni within Time. Therefore the Invisible God is on their side.

That turns out to be based on a series of Vampire killings in Trilus

Once again you keep harping about the Nobles being "pure malkioni' when I've just been explaining to you they worship the Gods like the other non-Zzaburi. Their Ancestors are the Big Gods like Orlanth, Magasta and Seshna Liktia. There is no difference in magic between them and the Horali and the leading Dronars. All are God worshippers who also practice Rightness. That's why talk of a Malkioni veneer misunderstands Malkioni society. The non-Zzaburi don't care about who or what an Invisible God looks like - that's something only the Wizards waste their time with. All the non-Zzaburi care about is supporting the Wizards in return for their magical support. The Wizards are part of their society and are likely to cast awesome magical spells for them if asked. Why would you want to overthrow those guys?

You are referring to old material about the Aeolians that has since been repudiated. The Humakti in Western Lands has pretty much the same view of Humakt as his Sartarite counterpart The same goes for Telmor, Storm Bull, Orlanth etc. Whether being a Priest or Rune Lord of the said cults is compatible with Rightness , I don't know. But if they aren't, Malkioni society would be quite diverse enough to accommodate them just like every other gloranthan society. There's no separation and the framework of Malkionism is one that encompasses a whole society and is not a veneer. Practicing Rightness means believing that society should be ordered among the four castes. How is overthrowing the masters compatible with that?

Non-Zzaburi: The Invisible God? I heard the wizards talking about him between themselves once. I asked who that was and was told to "Please Go Away". Zzaburi: We are the thoughts of the Invisible God. But in our fragmented state, we can only understand its mind as an insect might see ourselves. Only through the understanding of Rightness and acquisition of Knowledge can we be better know the Invisible God.

Apart from the already mentioned Black Arkati of Arkat's Last Hold. there is Mularik Ironeye who is described as a descendent of Arkat Chaosbane. This could be a misunderstanding of the chain of teachers between him and Arkat. Mularik was in Seshnela in the past few years but has recently returned. Dragon Pass (and Redstone) would be very important to the Arkati as many important events about him took place there. They would have been turning up as soon as Dragon Pass was open to human resettlement. Their numbers would have taken a bit of a leap after the Oceans were opened but fallen as a result of the Lunar Conquest.