metcalph

I'm not really seeing this. Other Malkioni societies (the Carmanians and the Aeolians) permit the Talars to worship Gods. The Talars don't learn sorcery as a general rule (I mean they could but it's too much hard work) so this doesn't strike me as an incompatibility between the duties of being a Talar and the duties of worshipping a prominent Ancestor. Likewise I don't see Caste Magic as being incompatible with ancestor worship as the particular form of the ancestor worshipped may be just fine with it. But worshipping one's ancestor does not require the rejection of Malkion or adoption of a pagan deity. AIl a Talar worships Aerlit then he is worshipping an ancestor who has been part of Seshnela since the Storm Age. If's not as if he's going to Heortland to worship Orlanth.

And what stops the Seshnegi from worshipping God-time ancestors like Aerlit, Seshneg, Ehilm etc? The RuneQuest Companion p7 mentions the Seshnegi adding temples to Orlanth and Magasta at Hrelar Amali. What stops those gods from being worshipped as ancestors?

Arkat was born a Horal. The Seshnegi do not accept Men-of-All as a valid Caste. Regardless of current attitudes towards Arkat, he and his worshippers still have a great influence in Tanisor (Mularik Ironeye claims descent from him). Yes, Arkat is disfavoured but again then so is Hrestol. The point was that worshippers of these gods among the Seshnegi are not trusted by the Talars or the Zzaburi.

There's no neede to be so patronizing. I saw the same text as you did and also know that Jeff described Hrestol's worship in Black Horse County in much scarier terms. Rather than rely on a sample size of one, I'm asking you why you feel the need to assert the Seshnegi should be so limited in their rune magics.

I really don't see why Seshnegi ancestors have to be so "limited" when the Trolls worship Kyger Litor in the same fashion with her own runic cults. It also clashes with what is said about the Seshnegi Ancestor worship in Cults of Prax.

The Malkioni have no Saints and don't admit any distinction between their gods and the others. The Talars justification for Ancestor Worship could be explained by if worship of the Creator/Invisible God/Malkion is right, so too must be worship of ancestors between yourself and the Creator. Through this reasoning, they avoid the Great Error. The worship of other gods (Humakt, Telmor etc) is acceptable so long as it has been permitted by the Talars. I don't think the Rokari wizards have anything to do here otherwise it makes the Seshnegi clones of the Carmanians which I want to avoid.

The Seshnegi Horal. The Horal generally has two deities - the Caste Deity and the Order Deity. The Caste Deity is either Hrestol, "Gerlant" or Arkat. Gerlant is in quotes because as a King of a country which hates class migration, the idea of the lower castes worshipping him seems a bit odd to me. I think the Seshnelans would avoid embarrassment by naming a leading warrior in his service who doesn't give the Flamesword runespell. Talor's worship is probably confined to Fronela and the later possible heroes are either God Learners or Nobles. Arkat is here because if the Rokari can tolerate Hrestol, they sure as hell can tolerate Arkat. The Caste deities give standard rune magics plus special weapons magics. Hrestol gives Shield and Dark Blade. While it's tempting to view the later spell as a Mandalorian Darksaber, having masses of Seshnelan warriors armed with Dark Sabers doesn't look right. Hence I'm inclined to interpret the Dark Blade as being something like an obsidian dagger used in cthonic sacrifices. Arkat teaches Spear Magics (inferred from the iconography of the Liberator in the Guide p377) and Gerlant teaches loyalty The cult of the Caste deities function as the officer corps of the Horals. The Talars trust none of them (Gerlant would be seen as too close to the King at the expense of the local Talar for example) and sideline them whenever possible . They are happy to work with the Order Deities (your average Hsunchen Gods).

There is a EWF temple-tomb that plays a role in the RQ Gamemaster Screen Adventure so the EWF did make use of tombs. The highest honor IMO would be being devoured by a Dragon.

A way to handle it might be through Caste Magic rather than specific sorcery spells. For example a Malkioni crafter might learn the Philosophical Form for a Sword. He carries it around in his head such that when he makes two swords at different times, the appraisers are hard pressed to tell any difference between the two. Rather than give the equipment made by such sorcery the hoary +1 bonus etc, I' think it would be more interesting if the equipment enhances the wielder's caste magic (ie a Horali wielding a Philosophical Sword would hit harder than he would using an ordinary sword.

Hrestol and Sorcery Obviously this is more of a pressing problem for the Loskalmi but the any Hrestoli learning sorcery (in order to become a Man-of-All or to simply learn Sorcery) is going to be limited compared to the Rokari. There is a simple solution: Joy. Jeff has written in the past of a Hrestoli corpus of magic in which some spells can only be cast having experienced Joy. Since Hrestol was the First to experience Joy, giving his worshippers some boost in casting sorcery through Joy seems to me the best way. In addition as a Rune Spell it also has the advantage of being theologically suspect to more conservative Wziards. THE JOY OF [RUNE] Rune: Varies Self, Temporal, Nonstackable This spell merges the caster's consciousness with the Invisible God. The spell must be boosted with 1 or more magic points. Each magic point increases the caster's skill in any sorcery spell of the selected rune by +10%. Trance limitations go here.

They've always been able to (cf King Gerlant and his flamesword). It was only the Talars of Arolanit that were reported being cute with their caste restrictions. An example of a sword wearing Talar is shown in the Guide p413: the Prince of Rinalket is submitting his sword to Guilmarn.

How the cult of Hrestol might work in Seshnela. What I think most commoners* are initiated into is not the basic cult of Hrestol because that's been suppressed. Instead they worship the Protector of the Commons with its limited rune magics (Shield, Dismiss Magic, Spirit Block). This makes them Malkioni and keeps them righteous even if they have to break the rules to serve the higher orders. Hence this cult proliferates among the commons despite the disapproval of the wizards. The core cult of Hrestol teaches the standard rune magics and has subcults for the other castes (wizards, warriors and nobles). But to become a full initiate of Hrestol (ie access to common rune magics for example) requires that the Hrestoli worship at secret temples alongside crazed holymen. *I think that in places, a sizable population of commoners are initiated into other patrons, such as Kadenit, Kachast etc

What "abandoning previous abilities" would these be? I'm not sure where we are getting the idea that the Saints Ascended are limited in the Rune Magics they provide. Gerlant can work just fine as a regular warrior cult among the nobles. So to put some detail on this. Noble 1 is from Estaurenic. His House's ancestor is Aerlit (Orlanth). He is an initiate of Orlanth and has access to the panopy of Orlanth's rune magic. However he knows he will never rise high in the ranks of the House Cult because he is neither favoured nor outstanding. He seeks fame and fortune as a warrior of Gerlant and has access to Gerlant's rune magics including the Flame Sword. He is likely to rise high in the ranks with the risk of an increased lifespan. From the House Priest of Old Malkion (Daka Fal), he has an ancestor as an allied spirit who looks after him and ensures that he doesn't not sully his House's name. From the Rokari Wizards, he has learned Rightness and has embodied it with (say) +2 damage bonus on any sword forged in the Seshnegi style. Where he is limited is in his acesss to Spirit Magic which consists of a heal 2 for wounds suffered during practicing and a disrupt. He does not learn any more spirit magic because it clouds his rightness. Even though he is not particularly important within his kingdom, he is the match of five Ralian barbarians because he is their superior. Equality is for the Loskalmi.

It's Caste Magic. Within the larger magical framework (as elaborated by the God Learners), I think Caste Magic would be sorcery as Shamanic Gifts would be Spirit Magic and Yelmalio and Humakti Gifts would be Rune Magic.

Jeff did make mention of a Dark Blade in another post which conjured up a picture of Hrestol as Darth Fring. I think Hrestol's small repitoire above reflects the civilian version of him worshipped in the west as opposed to the heroic version worshipped by Ethilrist and the Black Horse County (and also in the west). Jeff spoke of limited spirit magic for the Talars rather than limited rune magic. I'm not seeing any evidence that the Talar ancestors are limited in power compared to conventional gods and Cults of Prax has their ancestors surpassing the Gods.

It's knowledge rather than a divine sending or spirit. There's been lots of discussion about it in Men of the Sea. However that was bound up with a lot of Three Worlds silliness which was less than ideal. All ships use Open Seas to leave the harbour. Most sailors use spirit and rune magics but to Open the Seas, they have to have one person on board who knows the spell, regardless of their attitude to sorcery. Ship related sorcery is prominent because the rulebook describes the common sorcery known in the Holy Country (as well as Dragon Pass and the Wastelands). A Lhankor Mhy Sage knowing something that is next to useless pretty much embodies the cult's mission statement.

There are I think several possibilities in which this could be modelled. 1) So long has everybody involved acts with rightness and is able to demonstrate that (by performing caste magic or being scanned by a Zzaburi for signs of such) then there is nothing to worry about. If you are a Talar and you don't act with rightness (like, say, being a shaman to the ancestors) then there is something to worry about but the Talar won't do anything. If a member of the lower orders doesn't act with rightness, then there's nothing to worry about because the Talar will do something about it. 2) Regular donation of magical energy to the Zzaburi offsets the doctrinal error you commit in worshipping the Gods (being an initiate might have a periodic cost of 10 magic points for example). Only applies to lesser castes and not the Talars. 3) Lower castes permitted to worship "demonized" gods, spirits or wyters. These are similar to spirit cults but the entities are controlled by the local wizards with some magical enhancements. A nice idea but probably too much work and there is always the risk of the False Gods Revolt. 4) Wizards regularly tax the temples of the lower castes for magic points (ie the contribution is borne by the congregation rather than the individual person). Has the advantage over 2) of not having to waste time keeping track of individual worshippers or monitoring their magic point returns.

Allowing in the sense of "Yes, we've already said this is permissible". Some Zzaburi might dream of a state where nobody worships any gods at all, others think that only gods descended from Malkion should be worshipped but neither can actually make it happen.

I doubt your interpretation both as to the lack of shamans and the limitations in their ancestral cults. If Seshnela was the size of civilized Prax, say, then I could accept the limitations of available magic, but it's one of the centres of civilization and so can be as exotic as necessary.

I had seen the material by Jeff before but this is the bit that intrigued me: This suggests to me that the caste magic is limited by the amount of spirit magic, or Free INT in other words.

Um, my position is that the Nobles are the source of political authority in Seshnela. They decide what's the right to worship their ancestoirs rather than the Zzaburi. The Zzaburi can only influence the Nobles by working for them and providing access to Rightness. Since the Zzaburi have already allowed the worship of Ancestors in Seshnela, their opportunity for controlling Ancestor worship is limited. It's like the Hsunchen worship among the warriors - the Zzaburi know about it, the Zzaburi don't like it one bit, the Zzaburi do not have a death wish. Besides I doubt that the Seshnegi Ancestors are limited in the magic they provide when Cults of Prax says:

It's not whether I have to but whether I want to. Seshnela is a big and wealthy place where things aren't always going to go the way the Zzaburi want. Yes, the Zzaburi would prefer the nobility have a cut-down ancestor worship but the Nobles and the Ancestors make the decisions and what would they prefer? Bigger and better bumped ancestors that rule the world.

In my understanding. A Talar worships Orlanth as an ancestor (perhaps he does so under the name of Coalot or Aerlet). He worships by going to the Temple of his ancestor where he is blessed by a Priests and is capable of wielding spirit and rune magics. The Priest is a fellow member of his noble house and not a shaman. If the Priest weren't a Seshnegi Noble, he might be indistinguishable from a Ralian or Heortland Priest. There are sacred offices (Rune Lord positions) within the Temple, such as Sacred Lord, King etc and these are held by the leaders of the House (the reigning Talar, the heir etc). The Temple is smaller than elsewhere (because there are fewer initiates) but more richly endowed. The Farmers and Warriors worship at the Temple as lay members. Most of the Noble worship is conventional cults. I like to think that the houses of different flavours of permitted ancestors (like the Bailifids worship Seshneg, the Hadestolids worship Magasta, the Merabids Orlanth etc) to which they are initiated with the members choosing lesser ancestors as patrons (like Gerlant, Hrestol) depending on their inclinations. So what about the lesser ancestors (as per Daka Fal)? Or to put it another way, how do the Seshnegi nobility worship their little ancestors alongside the big ancestors (Orlanth, Gerlant) already mentioned? There's two possible answers. One is that the Seshnegi have a acolyte only (no shamanism just rune magic) policy with respects to lesser ancestor worship. This is possible according to earlier writeups of Daka Fal but not in RQ:G and probably not in GaGoG. My major problem is with this that it's boring. So alongside the traditional temple priests there are the shaman-priests of the lesser ancestors. They are not as prominent as the regular priesthoods of the Big Ancestors but they are still an important part in the spiritual life of the Noble Houses. They may just be the Fredos of the house tapped to look after the tombs and speak to the ancestors. The Wizards on the whole just ignore them whenever they can. So what would the name of the Seshnegi Daka Fal be? My guess Old Man Malkion, which has the bonus of being a common ancestor to all Seshnegi, and somebody whose existence is bound to irritate the Wizards.

It's interesting to read of Zzabur's mortality because I had the impression from latter Gregly sources that Zzabur was some sort of divine emanation of the Invisible God. That he is unable to stop thinking of himself as Mortal is a fascinating psychological detail. As for the monomyth identities, Jeff has said that some God Learners did see Malkion as Flesh Man (ie when the spell to put the world to right went wrong and killed everybody, Malkion/Flesh Man was left alone gibbering amidst the corpses when Chalana Arroy found him). But I think they ended up dropping the idea in light of its absurdities. Lhankor Mhy and Issaries would supposedly be known to the Malkioni as Enroval the Philosopher and Kachast the Speaker.

The broad brushstrokes make a lot more sense to me than the statements in the Middle Sea Empire about how the God Learners weren't worshipping Makan but Malioneran or mistaking the protective spells of the Abiding Book for the Book itself. My own thinking in trying to make sense of the big picture is that the God Learners were heavily tainted by the error of Pilif is that they viewed Wizards should be a source of legal authority, having the ability to make something a crime, as opposed to law originating from the Gods acting through their Talar descendants. The Age of the God Learners was the Age of the Big Legal Codes that regulated Everything. The Rokari have retreated from this position in that they see it as a source of corruption (which usually ends up with a massacre of defenceless wizards by iron-wielding thugs) and will only permit themselves to act in legal matters which they have already involved themselves. For example: two farmers have a dispute about the land. The Zzaburi is not interested and the Talar sorts out the matter himself. But if the land had been in a trust set up by the Zzaburi then they would get involved. The primary duty of the Rokari Wizards is to encourage the Rightness* of the other castes, rather than regulate their behaviour ten commandments style. They could see if somebody is falling behind, some might foam at the mouth at the lapses but others prefer to let the Talars sort it out. I think that much of the dispute in the Sorcerors War (Halwal versus Yomili etc) can be seen as analogous to the dispute between Augustine and Pelagius (Faith and Good Works). Halwal believes in the pursuit of Rightness above everything else but is held back by his enemies who legitimately quote verses in the Abiding Book. So Halwal goes "screw you guys, I'll teach Rightness to our enemies and if they should kick your sorry asses win then I was right". In the next age, Rokar vindicates Halwal by using his arguments to clean up the Abiding Book. *Not just an arcane concept but a source of magic.