metcalph

p262 - the picture is interesting in that it portrays Mikaday as a contemporary of Shavaya. Which isn't the case according to the standard Kralori myth. p264 - the New Dragons Ring consisting of "five people from five cities" hints at the Quinpolic League. p264 - When the Oceans closed, the False Dragon Emperor and the New Dragons Ring concealed the fact for a generation. This is perhaps related to the siege of Diao Yu Cheng (p272).

The Whitewall reference is actually to nearby Karse.

I generally agree. I really see many framgented magic practices. Any overall unity or philosophy was destroyed by the fall of the Machine City and the God Forgotten have no desire to rebuild their unity. Being sorcerous minded, they recognize four stages of lunar energies - the black, the blue, the red and the white. The Dark is to be avoided while the White is desired. For a long time, they were stuck in the blue magic zone and have within the past few centuries been cautiously exploring the red. The current oscillations of the Red Moon between Red and Black are a sign of its corruption and perversity (then again they may just be saying that so the local Orlanthi won't hit them on sight). The difference in colour of their moon magics and that of the Lunar Empire is a reflection of their philosophical differences. I think the astronomical calculator of Inolzi (KoS p80) is an attempt to calculate the pattern of the Blue Moon within the Sky (rising only when the Constellation of Lorion is directly in the East - Guide p648) and that the God Forgotten still use this to calculate auspicious times and avoid doing anything except casting protective spells when the streak happens or when the Red Moon is dark. The Eye that Pierces the Veil. Originally a magic designed to see the unseeable Blue Moon in the Sky. The caster feels their eyes grow immense and course with magical power (whereas oblivious outsiders only remark that the caster's eyes seem a bit bloodshot). Since the rise of the Red Moon, the psychedelic visions have become more intense and the position of seer has become restricted only to those of strong moral fibre or those who can function while totally burned out. The God Forgotten also teach a variation of this spell which makes Belintar visible to the caster and also onto the otherside. The Elevation of the Spirit. This takes a person's fluids and through careful treatments via a water corkscrew elevates it in quality to a more magical spirit. The spirit can be re-consumed, given to another or used to animate an human statue for a while. Animated statues and people under the influence of such spirits are filled with lunar energies that are slowly degraded through repeated Blue Streaks and Black Moon Days. The Strength of Lorion - as well as being a simple strength spell, the magic is used when Lorian is in the east to lift the soul upwards. Being mortals, the process is far longer than the Blue Moon's rise into the sky and nobody has even reached the Celestial City through this magic alone. People who have reached the Middle Heavens are notably more adept in wielding lunar energies but they are more vulnerable to the Blue Streak and Black Moon Days. Most of these magics would be practiced by all castes (most God Forgottenwould know one, some may know two, rarely three). The Zzaburi concern themselves with the practice of general sorcery

In which case they would have been described as Brithini rulers lording it over a native population, rather than a population following the Brithini forms of life and government. The Brithini do not have endogamous castes. According to Greg, when a woman has children, the first son is a farmer, the second a fighter, the third a Talar and the fourth a Zzaburi. Then the process starts over again.

I'm more inclined to think the God Forgotten don't grow food and other activities because it just seems wrong with how they are described ("are considered weirdly different by others in the world "). Following the example of Smith and Tinker (Guide p212 of Akem), I think Leonardo is of the Commoner Caste rather than being a Zzaburi. Rather than going out on their own to herd oxen to farm in the fields, the God Forgotten farmers are more inclined to craft golems from clay to do all the menial work. Where would they get the clay? By harvesting the sand and using alchemy. The golems are of fleeting quality, have to be supervised and rarely last more than a season before falling to pieces or running amok. Hence the God Forgotten spend their days making golems to do all the menial work required by their superiors. Apart from the Magic Road ending at the Machine Ruins? (Guide p254) I fear you have become too focused on a dictionary definition of Purification and use that to rigidly dismiss other possibilities. The Purification Rune was to reverse the process of Devolution to be closer to God (Middle Sea Empire p46). It does not entail by that definition the removal impure bits through separation (that would be the Death Rune). One can become closer to God through an general elevation of the spirit from a lower state to a higher one (which is why I mentioned the water corkscrew before). It is supported through the imagery of Belintar in the Prince of Sartar Webzine. Even if the Zzaburi of God Forgot were to stubbornly insist that it is not an element, pretty much everybody else in the Holy Country who follows Belintar would treat it as an element. Unless they were already acquainted with the Moon Rune and Belintar burrowed from their lore

So the Blue People had internal divisions. Doesn't make them two separate ethnicities.

The Charles comment refers to the Hepherones' section in Arcane Lore. It will also be in the Glorantha Sourcebook but Hepherones is now a Carmanian mystic of Ganbarri circa 1200.

Slontos is the only place they are mentioned to have harassed. We don't know how they got there - a naval expedition or mystical roads - nor do we know what other places they may have harassed. They simply do not appear in Esrolian records to date. Since the Zaranistangi only controlled Melib circa 700 ST, I do find it dubious that they maintained a major invasion force in Slontos that lasted from 758 ST to 805 ST. Of the top of my head, I think the Waertagi transported an army to Slontos before their destruction in 718 to keep them under control. But when the Waertagi were destroyed, the Loper People in Slontos were now stranded. And safely stored in secure archives such as Zistorwal, Locsil and Feroda... The Blue People are Waertagi as is described in the Glorantha Sourcebook.

My theory when the specific Prince of Sartar webzine page first came up was that he was a Teshnan (specifically from Melib) who was part of Selenteen's Landing (a Teshnan enclave at the mouth of the River of Cradles!). This unusual background would explain why the Only Old One could not identify him yet the wizards of God Forgot predicted his arrival. It also explains why Belintar sets up the port of Dosakayo on Melib. Another possibility is that he is a Blueskin from Fonrit (specifically Yrania in Afadjann) as part of an early eruption of Lunar power that presaged the rise of the Yranian Leapers. He may also come from Zamokil but he seems far too sedentary for that. The other known populations of Blue People are the Zzaburi (however Belintar dresses differently than Carvak Zirvan), the Blue Vadeli (Belintar doesn't quite seem so... depraved) or the Oroninae of northwestern Peloria. (which would require Belintar to take an odd way to get Kethaela by swimming).

Joerg, I just wanted a theory. My questions were things that I felt your or anybody else's theory should address (I don't care whether the theory is right or wrong, I just want something that I can digest without having go back several post to find out what the subject of exchange was). I don't think the digressions about the the relationship between the Esvulari and the Intagreens at the Dawn are helpful as that's ancient history. What I want to know is what you think the God Forgottens are like *today*. The Esvulari are irrelevant as they don't do Moon Rune Magic. Insofar as I can work out, you believe that the Moon Rune Cult was imposed upon God Forgot by Belintar and they can no longer do it now because Belintar is dead and JarEel stole his Moon Magics. You also think the effects of the Moon Rune was largely tidal in origin and common to all the Holy Country. You think the Man Rune was important in God Forgot because it denotes tool use and you think the Moon Rune was used to see in another reality (such as the Eye that Pierces the Veil). Alright so far? (I can see but not going to comment on apparent contradictions for now).

Gemborg lies within the boundaries of Caladraland (Guide p243) and is about 140 miles from the City of Wonders. Dwarf Mine lies about 190 miles away.

And this differs from the Moon Rune in what way? That doesn't answer the more important question of why the Moon Rune is so prominent in God Forgot today and what they use it for. I don't find your explanation that Man Rune = Humanism to be all that persuasive as Humanism is a Staffordism meaning humans (or rather mortals) should rule and not the gods. They do so through the use of Magic and Law and not through manipulation of the Man Rune (which isn't widely used for that purpose in the West). But to take your point that the Man Rune is important in God Forgot. What do you think they use it for? It's not sorcery as they have the Law Rune for that. Since it's modified by the Moon Rune in the head region, all I can think of is Mindblast. Coupled with the Eye that Pierces the Veil (Guide p238 and 239) and we have an insanity cult. But then we run headfirst into the fact that the God Forgottens are Brithini. So my question is how do the God Forgotten use the Moon and Man Runes within their Brithini lifestyle.? I think the Wand was a spiritual corkscrew myself. The Zistorite pointed at people in an attempt to refine their spirit (lift it from a lower place to a higher one). That it's apparently capable of destructive power is because the Red Moon has manifested and has overloaded the magical connections (which was originally supposed to be used in connection with the Blue Moon) with raw lunar power.

Yeah so? I feel your alternative explanation is a bit too heavily focused on the origin of the Lunar Powers within God Forgot whereas what I'm looking for is the impact of the Lunar Powers within God Forgot today. I'm not looking for unconditional acceptance of my theory, I'm looking for interesting interpretations so I can steal bits from them and use them to shore up my theory. 1) What do the God Forgottens think about the Moon Rune? What do they use it for? What do they think of that Big Red Object in the Sky? 2) How do the God Forgottens reconcile their Moon Rune faith with their Brithini lifestyle? Do only the Zzaburi practice it or do they teach it to anybody who wants to know? 3) How do the God Forgotten reconcile their worship of Belintar with their Brithini lifestyle? Do they teach their wisdom to others? 4) What were the antecedents of their Moon Rune worship in the days of the Zistorites and before. I'm not interested in seeing dour quotations of source material coupled with a timidity to go no further than what the sources say. That's boring. You should use the source material as a springboard. (e.g. "The God Forgotten use the Moon Magics through the Eye that Pierces the Veil"). I'm not interested in an explanation for everything - you don't have to explain the wand (I use it because it's the earliest mention of the Machine City and a surprising origin for a Lunar artefact). You could even use the Spiral Map (I draw the line at it being used as an canonical unchanging refutation with various interpretations not found in the map or the accompanying text). As for your suggestion that God Forgot is associated with the Moon because of the tides, one of Inolzi the Learned's three devices was the water corkscrew - a mechanical device for raising water from a lower place to a higher one. It could also be used as a explanation for the origin of the tides (with some difficulty but then early astronomers had epicyles) and a metaphor for the elevation of the soul.

It isn't an extrapolation of a single magic item. It's from *three* seperate sources. 1) God Forgot's surprising association with the Moon Rune in the Prince of Sartar Webzine 2) The drama about the Purification Rune in the Middle Sea Empire p46-47 (including the statements that it was made up). 3) The aforementioned wand. Now you can disagree with my theory, but I really would like to see an alternative explanation for 1) rather than doubting the foundations of my theory. And I do not think that JarEel invented the connection, Belintar imposed it on God Forgot or the Lunar Connections were there but nobody recognized them are viable as explanations. But was the Moon Rune one of the Runes that they knew of? I don't believe the wand is a central item and a vital connection or even the One Ring of the Zistorites. I believe it was a magical tool using the purification rune that survived the destruction of the Machine City and the Mostali looting of it (possibly bogus conspiracy theory: the Silver Dwarves used the lore of the Machine City for the spells by which they made the Red Moon). How important it was to the Zistorites is unknown. How important it is to the current God Forgotten is, I think, not very much as they have shied away from Purification of the World as an error which destroyed the Machine City. The colour of God Forgot is pinkish-Red so I think the Red Moon is clearly indicated as its source (I think the differences in red are because they reject the use of Chaos). God Forgot could have been associated with the Blue Moon *before* the rise of the Red (as Sandy, I think, suggested for Artmal as an explanation of his rune spell in Troll Gods)

I'm not interested in the unpublished stuff but actual published material. The Prince of Sartar Webzine associates the Moon Rune with God Forgot, not the Man Rune. Belintar has the Moon Rune, not the man rune. And the Six Guardians panel actually shows three main runes - law, man and moon, so I don't think the man rune is "modified". Rather I think it represents the old Zistorite philosophy of Man (Rune) seeking Henosis with the Invisible God (Law Rune) through the Purification (Moon) Rune. I don't see evidence of the Moon Rune in other parts of the Holy Country. Just Earth, Fire, Storm etc. And what do you mean by extracted? It was already well-known in the Holy Country before JarEel came along. Belintar's appearance as an actual Hamsa means that it would have been readily used as a symbol of him throughout the Holy Country. He's even wearing it in the picture of him in p238. And when people are going to attached the six runes to them and associate them with the Sixths, what rune do you think they are going to associate with God Forgot? Even accepting the premise of this for the sake of argument, is it seriously your suggestion that nobody thought to look at the similarity between the Moon Rune in Belintar (which everyone can see!) and the Modified Man Rune until JarEel came along? I find that hard to believe. I don't know who the Gundestrup rulers were and I don't find bizarre segues into obscure real world trivia to be at all informative. Now that much more is known of the Holy Country, the Zistorites with their doctrine of the Purification Rune and the use of the word perhaps, the actual origins of the Wand becomes much clearer. And for your information, there does happen to be a small event known as the Dragonkill which would have prevented anybody from Peloria from reaching the Machine City in the early days of the Empire. The spiral map is not canon and is a remarkably weak reed to base your argument upon it (I'm not saying it's wrong, mind you, it's just that I would prefer a more developed theory than a mere sayso that the Moon Rune was unrecognized until JarEel came along) . And I'm sure that the God Learners no matter how unwise they were would have been able to know whether the Purification Rune was in fact a Chaos Rune. The Spiral Map text description in Arcane Lore does not mention Kethaela. I know El Penjelo thought it might be a map of the Holy Country but even if the map was accurate when published, there remains the fact that considerable time has passed since then, a few of the names on there appear nowhere else and most importantly, Greg's thinking on the White Moon has changed. So I really consider it an interesting piece of historical trivia much like the rest of Arcane Lore.

Do the Heortlings know that it keeps searing away the chaos at the heart of the Print (or even if this is an actual fact)? I don't think so. All they know is that it behaves differently than other rivers and that difference is connected to the Print. Ergo evil. All it suggests is that Belintar is happy with it. There's nothing to suggest the "sea powers" are fine and my contention is that they may not be. Sounder's River is out of sight, on the other side of the mountains and, most importantly, flows naturally. But the issue isn't giving the sea entities access to land, the issue is defying Magasta's call and endangering the world as a result. The Syphon is the only river that does this and is widely described as evil for doing so.

Except that -ar is implied to be a lunar term rather than a Holy Country one. According to the History of the Heortling Peoples, the three provinces were North Province, Central Province and South Province. Does it obey Magasta? No. Ergo it's evil. That's a bit of a big leap to make. Elsewhere, we see things done by Belintar that do not make him universally beloved. What's to stop the Fish Road up the Syphon be a cause of great discontent by the Mirrorsea Ludoch?

On the subject of the Elemental Division of the Holy Country, each sixth seems to have a counterpart that isn't subject to Belintar. Heortland - Volsaxi. Caladraland - Thonble or the Western Allies Shadow Plateau - Kitori God Forgot - Jab? Esrolia - Old Woods Mirrorsea - Who knows what lies beneath?

Source? Considering the Moon Rune is part of Belintar, I strongly doubt that it's discovered by JarEel. Since the Wand of the Seven Phases of the Moon comes from the Machine City, the most obvious answer is that the Moon Rune was known there as the Purification Rune of the Zistorites. There's a big difference between using that old and uncertain reference as a map of the Heroplanes and using that to assert that nothing exists on the otherside of God Forgot.

p249 - the House of Black Arkat gets placed in Arkat's Hold. Ever since Troll Gods, this was placed in Heortland for some odd reason and the story of Arkat's Hold never made clear (until now).

What the God Forgot section lacks is any discussion of the relationship between the land and the Moon Rune (which we know exists from the Prince of Sartar webzine)

Caladraland. Kind of needs a sidebar as to why the land is called Caladraland whereas the Big Volcano God is known locally as Veskarthen. p243 the method of choosing the High King of Caladraland is slightly less overwought than it was presented in the RuneQuest Companion (He's now a High King and the length of his term is not specificed). Strikingly I wouldn't be complaining if Caladraland were mentioned to have a constitution because those were pretty common in the mediterranean. Nice to see Thonble finally on the map.

I would like to have known more about these invasions but the real question is why is "neutrality" so important to Belintar? It's not as if there was anybody else who could impose sanctions upon him for infringing the supposed neutral status of the Holy Country. This suggests that his navy had attempted to annex Handra and Melib. The real thing I'm not getting here is that after a setback in Kralorela, he's called off the entire enterprise. That's not something that Sheng Seleris, the Red Emperor, the God Learners or the EWF would ever contemplate. So what is Belintar's thinking here? And an example of a dog that did not bark, apart froma few battles against the Volsaxi, there is a complete lack of any military campaigns into Dragon Pass or Maniria, something that would have interested an immortal God-King at least once. The obscure Lunar agitators among the Ditali. The real question is how the Lunars managed to reach the Ditali considering that the approaches to Maniria are blocked by the Holy Country and that going incognito in the Holy Country seems a tad far-fetched (it has happened with the assassins against the House of Sartar) and more importantly somewhat modern. p242 - the Master of Battle. One thing that strikes me in the list of Governors in History of the Heortling Peoples is that the Governors seem to be the main military commanders for the Holy Country in Heortland whereas according to this, there should at least be a Duke. Alsothe Holy Couyntry had a massive army but seems to do very little with it (other than getting slaughtered by Greymane and his thugs).

My understanding is that the Fronelan Hsunchen (like many others) at the time were incomplete, they didn't have a fully fledged religion that provided the answers for everything. The classic Hsunchen culture as presented in the Guide and elsewhere is largely a product of God Learners trying to indentify their mythic origins.

Not disputing the pan-Fronelan nature of the Syndics, Loskalm did have Amlaria the Priestess whose grave is at Midtasker (She fought alongside Svenlos who is a colleague of Snodal but not one of the Syndics). Second you are confusing Loskalm as it is now with what Loskalm was like before the Ban fell. I doubt that it was so doctrinally uniform then. But the Timeline says he and his companions disappeared. Not that their souls left their bodies on a heroquest. The way that their return is written implies that they have returned alive and whole to their lands to find disaster. Which conflicts with the brief statement that they disappeared or that people only spoke to the Syndics as ghosts after the event.