metcalph

The Storm God is Humakt (and there may be some confusion with Humat). Since these are late texts composed a thousand years after the original events, errors in the text (like Arkat's mother becoming a Queen) are understandable.

Found in the Fortunate Succession p20 with comment on p92

Perhaps she went too far in that feud and the Maboder would not settle unless she were also exiled?

IMO the chaotic permissiveness of Fonritan religion is something that has only just been realized (previously a Big Secret among the Rulers, the Vadeli made it known to everyone) and the communities are still coming to terms with it. It's not as if they have a well-developed philosophy about the purpose and use of chaos as the Lunars do. The Orlanthi may have damned certain Fonritans as chaotics (just as they may have damned their own) but the idea that the entire religion might be (or, to be more precise, could become) chaos-friendly is something that has yet to sink in.

Linealist Hrestoli? The Linealists (no Hrestoli) only appear in Book 1 of the Genertela Boxed set contrasted against the Hrestoli Idealists and haven't appear since. Apart from the issues of rushed writing that has not been repeated since (no such conflict appears in the Seshnegi Kings List), the idea that a faith split over the issue of inheritance I feel to be rather strange (not as strange as the idea that a knightly family could serve the same noble family for a thousand years strange but still pretty suspension-of-disbelief-breaking IMO). I think it wiser to say that variants of Hrestoli mysticism and Abiding Book communities are still found on the Malki coast.

Generally the Vadeli are evil. Greg once used the Cainists as an inspiration (a perhaps fictitious Gnostic sect which held that the since of the God of the Old Testament was really the Devil, anything he prohibited - murder etc - was actually good). The Vadeli have castes of which two are known to exist - the numerous Browns (Commoners) and the rarer Reds (Warriors). I'm not sure that it is. It may be. It may not be. The only people who know for sure are the Silent and they are not talking. Ompalam is a supreme god. A cryptic note in revealed mythologies (p49) suggests that he may have come from Oabil which may mean that he was originally a Vadeli philosophy. Worshippers of Ompalam often worship other gods but they acknowledge Ompalam's supremacy. No, I was suggesting that they speak a different language and they have a slightly different society. They do but the names might be slightly different. Orlanth might be known as Worlath or Baraku for example.

The Vadeli and the Cult of Silence. Perhaps Ompalam too. A couple of others are mentioned in the Umathela section. The daughters of Menena Guide p641 and the Son of Chaos p633 (although I feel the authors missed a chance to call him Demogorgon because the original was a Christian author's mispelling of Demiurge). I daresay there's a few other unnamed cults but none are so widespread as the Sedalpists. The section on the Sedalpists (Guide p623) mentions a post God-Learner esotericism which if still around be considered an alternative. I'm not actually sure they have thanes. But even assuming you meant people of similar social roles. In Umathela, everybody would believe that the Invisible God exists. Worshipping him is something else and that's generally done only by the wizards (Seshnela and Loskalm which try and ban the worship of other gods are exceptional). So the real marker of whether somebody could be considered a Malkioni is whether or not he supports a wizard or practices caste.

This does indeed conflict with the assumed long-lived empire of the Indigo Conqueror, but I thought that Afati might have intervened in a succession struggle after Jarkaru's demise, and temporarily have conquered Kungatu and Mondator before moving north. The trouble is that it requires a simple statement be turned into a convoluted explanation. The text doesn't mention Kungatu or Mondator not does the dictionary. Kungatu gets destroyed by the Firefall not conquered by Afati. The Agimori of Laskal and Baruling, the parts of Fonrit without any Veldang population? What do you mean? There were Artmali living in the region before Afati came and I think they remained as slaves after he conquered the land. It is only the Artmali north of the Wall Mountains that remain free. You are going to have to explain the remark about the non-drinker. If its a reference to lineages than I fail to see why Afati or other Tishamotoans should not have medicine plant lineages. And why wouldn't Afati be worshipped in Laskal?

This does indeed conflict with the assumed long-lived empire of the Indigo Conqueror, but I thought that Afati might have intervened in a succession struggle after Jarkaru's demise, and temporarily have conquered Kungatu and Mondator before moving north. The trouble is that it requires a simple statement be turned into a convoluted explanation. The text doesn't mention Kungatu or Mondator not does the dictionary. Kungatu gets destroyed by the Firefall not conquered by Afati. The Agimori of Laskal and Baruling, the parts of Fonrit without any Veldang population? What do you mean? There were Artmali living in the region before Afati came and I think they remained as slaves after he conquered the land. It is only the Artmali north of the Wall Mountains that remain free. You are going to have to explain the remark about the non-drinker. If its a reference to lineages than I fail to see why Afati or other Tishamotoans should not have medicine plant lineages. And why wouldn't Afati be worshipped in Laskal?

Still the maps show Oabil as south of the Fense mountains, and Chir north of it, and west of the Jungle. Poto and Chir are mentioned in the Vadeli chapter, while Oabil is the Pamaltelan term, so I would assume Poto to be identical with the Oabil in the maps. Oabil is what the source text (Revealed Mythologies p49) referred to and that is why I used it. I really don't see why labelling down the precise extent of Poto, Chir and Oabil to be at all necessary when all that is needed is a convenient name for the Vadeli Kingdom to the west of Fonrit. More evidence that the maps are crap for this particular area, no? In any case the problems of the Gendarans with the sea are hardly relevant to who is living in Fonrit at the relevant time.

Looking at the map of the Flood Age, Tishamto and Gendara form out of the Jungle, possibly cleared by the initial impact of the Sevasbos invasion into that forest. Interestingly, the forest surrounding the Spike's base (piercing through the Earth) now is the Greenwood rather than Yellow Elf jungle. Umm. Recheck your map. Tishamto is in the south of Pamaltela and not the north. The maps may suggest that Gendara was formed out of the Jungle but I don't believe in the maps. Gendara is the Loral Isles and the first Torrential War is the flooding of the lowlands. You did not get the impression from the map, true, but then this makes the huge assumption that the God Learner map is a correct and true representation of the geography of the period. But it is a God Learner construction from the myths and the indication here and elsewhere is that the God Learners simply didn't understand the myths very well (for example their placement of the Heron Hegemony near Slon rather than Darjiin). Bredjeg is never mentioned anywhere else apart from this Veldang myth. The Sky Wars mentioned appear to have seen Tolat and Lorion on the same side, united against Bredjeg. Yes and? You are reaching again. You should be saying the only cognate that you can recall. In any case Bredjeg is a Storm God and he is a cognate of Umath and Oorsu Sara. Where is this stated? Orlanth is not mentioned in the relevant sections on the Zaranistangi or the Artmali.

Did they have a shore there, then? Or did Yeetai's cloud ships land on some inland body of water? As I said above, I believe the shoreline in Fonrit is pretty much close to current Fonrit. Where the mythical maps and the current maps differ, I tend to go with current geography. For example. it makes better sense to have Bandaku as being the island of Kanem Dar then it is to have it far out into the sea with no remaining connection to known geography. What are your indications for placing these obscure places in Fonrit, other than to make this fit your theory? My interpretation (which has Bandaku as the Hard Earth or Kanem Dar) does differ from the text which suggests that the entire land is Bandaku. I should observe that between the isles of Kanem Dar and the Inland Sea is the land of Yrania from whence the Moon-worshipping Yranians came. According to the Mythical Maps of the Breaking of the World and the Grey Age, there were no water bodies inland of the -guyas at the Dawn. You seriously suggest the mythical maps of that place to be geograpically correct? Why then is it called the Inland Sea when it is pretty much more exposed to the open ocean than the Mirrorsea?

I was looking for any waterway leading around Somelz or its precedessors to what now is Fonrit, but I failed to find any. Churkenos went too far west before the rising of Somelz, and if you try to put Gendara etc. onto a map, Loral may be the only remaining dry part of it. Kimos is shown far inland and to the south. You are looking at the God Learner maps in the Guide? Ignore them, they are wrong. They conflate the Spike with Bandaku and thus draw a misleadingly huge continent between the Spike and the Pamaltelan Mountains. The sea flows north of Fonrit in the Storm Age as it does now. Thinobutu is on Loral and lay where Loral is now and Kimos may or may not be at its current location. I think you need to distinguish between what the God Learners knew, what the God Learners constructed and so forth. The God Learners did not portray the Spike as an island because in their inherited mythology they really had no experience of the lands beyond the Churkenos. Because of their philosophical search for unity, they were intent on making all big mountains into one Cosmic Mountain and so the Spike becomes a midrash of the mythologies surrounding (IMO) Bandaku in Fonrit, Three Steps and Teleos. The Pamaltelan maps only corroborate the lack of an eastern shore on the spike if you assume that their Sorulvela/Korvano is the same place as Bandaku. But if it isn't, then the Pamaltelan mythical map shows a rough outline corresponding pretty much to current Pamaltela from the viewpoint of the veldt and does not confirm the God Learner geography at all. But the problem with the Afati led the Veldang to Fonrit is that the cryptic notes say nothing of the sort. The Veldang/Artmali were in "Fonrit" warring with the Gendarans and the Vadeli before Afati who led a migration of Agimori according to the plain reading of the notes.

Starting a new topic. Vovisibor comes from Bandaku (Revealed Mythologies p40), the Enemy Mountain. Bandaku lies north of the Fense. At first blush, Bandaku seems to be another name for the Spike as the God Learners say but upon thinking, Revealed Mythologies doesn't contain a mythic history of Fonrit. Making Bandaku a mountain within Fonrit (I think it is now Kanem Dar) solves this apparent omission and also would be an an explicable error for the God Learners to make.

Yellow Bear is a demigod of Fronela and mentioned in the Guide p228. Goldtooth might be Jaldon Toothmaker because of his golden teeth. Twisted Horse could be Sheng Seleris. I think that's because in the original writeup in White Bear and Red Moon, her other children were the Unclean Races: the Walkers of Chaos, the Eaters of Life and the Unnatural Ones.

The motion rune was imprisoned to prevent Belintar's nature from changing. The Larnsti are Wind Lords (Sartar King of Heroes p126) who may or may not be affected by this within the boundaries of the Holy Country. As to the Bigger Question of what Belintar is doing, my opinion is that the actual body of Belintar is the local heroplane in the Holy Country. It is easier to access and more magical. Something similar was done in Orlanthland when they created the Proximate Holy Realm (History of the Heortling Peoples p83 and elsewhere and this later became a foundation for the EWF's magics). What distinguishes Belintar from the earlier efforts is that he is the Holy Realm and desires participation within him so that he becomes stronger. He admits all people (and in some cases compels them). Perhaps he was attempting to achieve a critical mass of awareness so that he becomes a Great God but was too cautious to gamble as the Red Goddess did.

I think there was a separate landing of the Artmali in north Pamaltela by Yeetai who founded Rew' Melod (RM p47). I interpret the fragmentary material on p49 as follows. The Artmali had some sort of civilization which included the Zaranistangi in Fonrit in the Flood era. Known landmarks include the Hard Rock (now the isle of Kanem Dar) and the Soft Heart (what is know the Inland Sea which I think was land-locked until the Closing Guide p553). Tishamto and Gendara don't rise until the middle Storm Age. The Artmali move against Tishamto. The Artmali go to war against Gendara/Genjara. This may have included the wars of the Zaranistangi against Bredjeg (RM p47). The Zaranistangi left and the Empire fell apart. The Artmali then have a conflict of some time with Oabil. Sor (Guide p572) on the isle of Kanem Dar was probably founded at this time. Other parts of Fonrit remained under Artmali control but they were unable to expel the Vadeli conquerors from Kanem Dar. The Vadeli have been here since the flood so this conflict will occur early in the middle Storm Age. Afati's conquest then begins. Afati is said to be from decadent Tishamto which is said to be after its conquest by Kungatu (RM p65). So this is some time after its founding. Now the key puzzle here is that Afati conquers the southern part of the Artmali Empire with the gloss that Southern means that it was south of the wall mountains. At first sight, the wall mountains refers to the Fense (Mari, Tarmo and Palarki). But that refers to Kungatu which can't be right (Kungatu just conquered Tishamto which in turn in conquering the northern portion of Kungatu?!?). Then it struck me. The Wall Mountains being referred to is the mountain range that runs from the Tarmo in the southwest to Kareeshtu in the northeast. Afati is hence conquering the region south of this mountain range being the Baruling Valley, Tarahorn and Laskal! Support for this comes from the name of Afati-Tal (Guide p568) a recent and deceased foe of the Pulajeg Empire. So the original Fonritans are Agimori from Tishamto who moved northwards in the middle Storm Age to avoid continued rule by Kungatu. This also resolves the vexed issue of Mondator being a name for Fonrit (Guide p561) yet is placed wouth of the Fense in the mythic maps (Guide p688). The God Learners knew the name and that it lay south of the mountains. But they got confused by the mountains being referred to and so put Mondator in the wrong place. The last section supposedly refers to the Oabil and the Genjeran remants ganging up on the Fonritans. Afati's people could be described as the New Artmali (in that they were forced to take up Artmali customs) but I think the usage odd. In any case it doesn't really matter as five wicked shamans/sorcerors/whatever killed Kendalamar to create Vovisibor. I'm assuming that one is Vadeli, one is Artmali, one is Genjeran, one is Afatite/proto-Fonritan/Tishamto and the last could be a yellow elf. Vovisibor wasn't really an invader as he came from Fonrit.

https://www.chaosium.com/revealed-mythologies-pdf/ It's in an unfinished form so may not be what you seek.

Revealed Mythologies (although it doesn't cover Umathela very well and it was a long time before I noticed that a large part of Pamaltelan mythology was actually a mythic struggle against Fonrit).

A word of advice. Avoid jargon like "advanced animist society". It doesn't tell us anything about what the Artmali were like (it's far from certain that they worshipped only spirits) and causes serious eye-glazing moments. Your theory of about the Artmali buildings could easily have been made without resorting to clunky Hero Wars jargon. That's the first recorded Doraddi contact with them, something slightly different. I'm not certain that it's wrong. The Artmali could have easily moved out and Tishamto moved in. Then many centuries later, Kungatu launches a war to restore Vendarahab. All this is taking place in the Storm Age which is over ten thousand years long. A RW parallel would be Justinian's wars of conquest in Italy and North Africa against the Vandals and the Ostrogoths. The Pamaltelan Great Darkness occurred in the Great Darkness. The many Pamaltelan battles against chaos (Jaranpur and Sporebore) occurred in the late Storm Age or the Lesser Darkness. You can refer to this as part of the Demon Period (as the Pamaltelans do) but to start calling it the southern Pamaltelan Great Darkness only confuses.

I divide the Artmali into three stages. 1) The early stage when they have just landed. 2) The classic stage in which they were united under the Jakaru the Indigo Conquerer 3) The late chaotic stage. I think the Artmali built from waterstone, transmuting water into rock. In the early stage, their buildings are quite simple in design with unadorned walls and so forth. Perhaps the Artmali had other senses by which they could appreciate things at the time. In the classic stage, their buildings come alive. There are huge statues, massive towers and the walls are adorned with petrogylphs that begin to resemble undeciphered writing. There are signs of external influences, the towers are probably based on the Vadeli towers of sorcery. The late phase is the worship of chaos. Very little survives from this time as the Firefall burned most of it. The Artmali ruins that survive were the long buried remnants of earlier stages that were uncovered (and partially razed) by the Firefall. But the spirits of the Firefall's victims still haunt these ruins seeking a return to life...

Boldhome fell pretty quickly. It was Whitewall that held out for some time.

Worship of Sheng Seleris.

Iron, I would have thought.

I think treating spell-learning as a cost-less activity is an error here. As far as I know most spirit magic spells are learned in worship ceremonies (based on the RQ3 model of one spell point every five years). To learn a spell outside worship is to do things out of season and that imposes a cost. The priest has to do special prayers and sacrifices to keep the gods happy and that is the cost of the spell. The spirits aren't in a box waiting to be picked up, they are on the otherside waiting to be called at the right time.