metcalph

The actual statement is Not all of its inhabitants but a significant number (who probably went to sleep during the Great Darkness).

Do they? Because the Guide makes only two Sendeven aiding them in mythical times and does not mention their appearance at Oenriko Rock and other places. They maintained a strong naval tradition but they didn't build a large fleet until after the opening (Guide p145). Look at this way, in 1582 (two years after the opening) there was a naval engagement between the Holy Country and Alatan that involved nearly a hundred ships. The Vadeli Empire has been extant for four years, with the resources of Fonrit and Umathela when it encountered the Maslo and fought a naval war that lasted for a further five or six years before Oenriko Rock. Even if the Vadeli were having spots of bother within their empire, that's quite a mismatch. Foreign fashions is cheap to transport. All it requires is a chest of clothing and the local tailors can pick up the slack (with authentic clothing commanding a premium). A further example of foreign influence might be Hoom Jhis's title of Dynast. It's used in Vormain (Guide p539) and may be the eastern isles equivalent of King. Since the Eastern Islanders were visiting the place as early as the Dawn, their fashions among other things would be longstanding.

I think the original Farnwith culture was exterminated (Guide p602) and that the surviving elf-haters fled to miserable enclaves in Elamle. When Errinoru's Empire collapsed, they resettled Onlaks rather than labour to support the struggling Novarooplians.

Wealth <> population. It is described as such in the map on p470 of the Guide. Perhaps Yanchi is meant instead. You keep talking about cultural development when I'm talking about wealth. Cultural development is something nobody can agree upon (is the Doraddi more culturally developed than the Heortling?) Wealth is something that can be measured. Flanch is a country that had a fleet that was able to defeat the Vadeli Empire. Clearly the Maslo isn't a backwater and given its low population compared to Fonrit and even the Eastern Isles, must be doing well on another front. Hence I'm disinclined to see only Westel as a wealthy port in a backwater and feel that the other ports of Flanch and Elmale must be doing well financially.

Maslo has two regional trade centres (Westel and Charth) and has a trading settlement on Teleos. The Flanchi war against the Elves is to me one of a stalemate more than anything else. Yanchi is overrun every summer but is described as an important and prosperous port while the other city have a variety of methods to avoid being overrun (caves, salt). Elamle has problems with the spawn of the mother of monsters but to describe their cities as regularly overrun is I think too much. So Maslo is wealthy. You suggest that because there has been little time since the Opening, they can't have developed a cosmopolitan culture. My thinking is because they have so much wealth (compared to the closing days) they are willing to spend big in acquiring foreign fashions.

Being a wealthy and cosmopolitian culture, I would suggest a mixture of styles with Fonritan, Vithelan and Holy Country clothing.

Sheng wasn't involved in the Battle of Night and Day. Individual spirits may have fought (such as the Ram Steed of Lokamayadon) or the spirits that the trolls sent against the invaders. Most of the action was taking by the Gods (Kyger Litor, Nysalor and Daysenervus) rather than the spirits. The troll use of spirits differs from the use of spirits in Dragon Pass/Nomad Gods in one way - the Trolls were using spirits to attack line-of-sight whereas the Lunar College of Magic and the Sartarite Magical Union were using them to attack foes at a distance. Not so much "go forth and smite this city" but "go forth and smite the Bush Rangers guarding the cross-roads five hexes distant". This, I suggest, is the new innovation that makes the magical units possible. Not the mere massing of magicians together but installing them the capacity to target specific locations from a sight unseen but still within smiting distance. It's possible that Sheng could have done this. It's also possible that he could have learned from the early Lunars or that the current Lunars could have learned from him. It's also possible that the Praxians could have learned from him. The biggest detail would be to convey the sense of instructions that the spirits can understand while avoiding mathematical navigation instructions. Instructing spirits to travel along the four directions is fine. Instructing them to attack a specific enemy is fine. The best method IMO would be to develop scrying magics or soothsaying to systemically map where the enemy is and what they look like. There should still be potential for confusion or deceptive tactics. A massed spirit attack could be evaded through a scapegoat or a decoy: For example an instruction to attack the Crimson Bat could be evaded by the Lunars creating a large image of a bat, staining it red and watch with laughter as the spirits descend upon it to little effect.

We weren't talking about Yanafal within the Seven Mothers, we were talking about Yanafal Tarnils as a stand alone cult. And I didn't say it was a sheep cult, I said he had access to ram magics. Your memory notwithstanding, I have made this suggestion in the past. And given the only official source of Yanafal Tarnils by himself happens to be the somewhat desperate shortform in ILH-2, the silence on his ram magics in the official source is not that persuasive. Y'know if you didn't like the idea then the wiser thing to do would have been to ignore it rather than wasting time with hyperbolic dismissals.

There has never been a complete description of the cult of Yanafal Tarnils anywhere. At best there has been shortform descriptions of varying quality. So the argument from silence hardly applies. I hence find the suggestion that a major epithet of Yanafal Tarnils should be interpreted allegorically to be rather odd given that pretty much the epithets for the other seven mothers are not.

I think the Ram Magic is not from Yuthuppa but Carmanian in origin as the Bull Shahs were ruling at the time. Hence actual ram magic seems appropriate. Another possibility which just occurred to me is the worship of the Iron Ram.

For the average Fonritan Slaving-owning plutocrat, it's quite useful. For the impoverished hero, not so much.

One of the two governments that rebelled against the Middle Sea Empire was the God Learner Government in Kareeshtu who survived for quite a while so they wouldn't have been in the habit of casting off the old regime. I think Shekel would be a better word to use (because it's an actual bronze age word meaning a bushel of wheat or somesuch). Later it became associated with coins in Tyre, Carthage and Judea. For Gold measures, there's always the talent. Jeff wasn't saying that the Fonritans call their coins Imperials. He was saying that the Fonritan silver coinage was derived from the Silver Imperials of the Middle Sea Empire.

Practically the only additional tidbits are: 1) He was known as "Ram and Warrior". Expected some ram-related war magic and ram helmets. 2) He was one of the Arrows of Light. At that battle, he was the wielder of Fury, which may be his scimitar or some Lunar berserk magic. 3) His cult has since developed the ability to create vexilla - bascially combined forces magic.

Sheng seems to have been rather dogmatic in that his best warriors all followed an ultra-traditional lifestyle. Presumably their magics would have also been similarly conservative. But Sheng's no longer around and neither are his Bursts. Hence his followers today would have some more freedom in their magics (like Darkness or Storm). At the same time, they would not be as powerful as they were in Sheng's time. Based on what Sheng preached (Good Slavery), I'm inclined to make the Zholathi spirits bound into living mortals. The spirit, being ultra-traditional, punishes the Zholathi severely for the slightest infraction. Under its harsh discipline, the Zholathi begins to develop the powers of the spirit.

The Malkioni have silver currency in the form of Ducats and Imperials according to the Guide. I think the Imperials were originally invented as currency by the Silver Empire (Seshnela) in the Dawn Age and introduced into Peloria by the Carmanians.

On a slight tangent... I think the random gifts of Yelmalio as presented in Cults of Prax is a reflection of the tough struggle for survival that the Sun County faced during the Solitude of Testing. Rather than have initiates spend time in meditation to achieve their desired gifts as was done previously, the Priests debased the rituals of the gifts so their initiates would have more gifts in less time. I do think it is necessary that Elmal be found wanting in relation to Yelmalio as Yelmalio is currently ascendant in Dragon Pass and elsewhere. I don't believe my gift suggestion is the cause of that. I prefer to see things mythically. When Elmal joined the Storm Tribe, times were hard. He was willing able able to suppress the natural rivalry between fire and storm in order to work with Orlanth so that both would survive. The problem, I think, is what happens when times were good. Then Elmal and Orlanth, no longer having a common enemy, start having arguments with each other. Hence I feel that Monrogh's success was due in part a fight between Elmal and Orlanth occuring in the years before his awakening which ended with Elmal suffering a defeat and his followers dispirited. Perhaps it was the Kingdom's friendship with the Grazers that was the cause. The Elmali thanes envious at the gifts being given to the horsefolk set about trying to prove the superiority of their god, and failed dismally.

A major distinction between those faiths and Malkionism is that the Malkioni population as a whole are not obliged to know details about the Invisible God, the nature of Joy etc. All they are required to do is to obey the Wizards on matters of magic. They do not obey the Wizards because they believe in the Invisible God. They believe in the Wizards. And to answer a question you posed on other forum, the medieval stuff primarily came about because they were writing up the Genertela boxed set and needed details about the West in a hurry.

Moved from the HQ forum The Rokari Church as described in the HeroQuest 1.0 rules no longer exists. For starters, it is not a church. Most of the fighting orders in Seshnela are barely disguised Hsunchen cults. I doubt that the Golden Lance and the Humble Calligraphers exist. I have no idea how Gerlant's cult functions in Seshnela. The Rokari school is dogmatic because of its history. Any deviation from its own truths leads to invasion by the Arkati and/or divine destruction caused through God Learner error. They do not care for whatever foolishness the commoners believe (so long as they are not blatantly erroneous), what they really care is conformity among the wizards.

It's not canon AFAIK. Even Greg seemed to think it just was an amusing theory when I pointed it out to him many years ago. But the reference is not to RQ2 and RQ3, the reference is to the maps of Genertela in Uz Lore. These days, I'm inclined to believe it was a map-making error more than anything else.

Counting machines. Most have the feature that if the number of items disagrees with the specifications in the Plan then the machine either whips out a hammer to pulverise the excess or cut up one item to make two. Muffler: a machine that dampens sound and air currents within a given region. Most humans find it difficult to talk or even breathe in such an environment. Dwarves OTOH like it just fine. Medical Surgery. Scans for anybody part that is inferior or contrary to the plan. Amputates it and replaces it with a clay dwarf version (which comes from a morgue of choped up dwarves) which is then held in place with an application of living cement. Dwarves can survive the shock, other races not so much. Forest Harvester: Large self-propelled wagon with a curious attachment of blades in front of it. Used for clearing forests, bush and elves. Shadow disperser: a huge flaming ball of pitch kept always alight by a salamander. The pitch is alchemically treated such that the light is harmful to creatures of darkness.

The dragon magic effects haven't been described as rune spells since RQ3. There's multiple options given the lack of detail. My personal opinion is the Dragon Magic is natural magic. The Dragonewts are willing an effect into existence which is something that the Elder Dragon/their Future Selves/what-have-you can do naturally. Their ability to do so is dependent on their spiritual closeness to the Dragon and if done wrongly impairs their spiritual bond. For humans studying Dragon Magic, since they do not have the ancestral affinity with Dragonewts have to use more conventional methods which takes the form of feats, spells or spirits. How it meshes in with the infinity rune/illumination (HeroQuest: Glorantha) is something that has yet to be ascertained.

Generally editing your prose after composition with a good helping of "Murder your darlings" will work wonders. There's no reason to mention each and every possible influence or variation so long as your central idea is sound. There's generally no reason to mention these people outside a detailed gazetteer of Fronela. They can be safely ignored without anybody being the wiser. If I recall correctly, the topic under discussion was the Hrestoli of Loskalm or the New Idealist Hrestoli. There's no practical reason to bring Irensavel as those groups worship him by definition. Ah, you say but what about the non-Hrestoli who don't worship Irensavel? Who cares about them? Nobody knows if they exist or not. Bringing the theory and practice of Irensavelism into a discussion of Hrestoli is quite frankly a red herring. As I said elsewhere I fail to see why you think Gaiseron outranks Siglat. If Siglat is Marx, Gaiseron is an Engels at best.

I fail to see how it would have been Heresy considering the possibility was explicitly mentioned in Gods of Glorantha (published 1985) for the Cults of Chalana Arroy, the Eastern Isles Gods, Etyries, Path of Immanent Mastery and the Stygian Heresy. A little less hagiography please, That bald assertion is at odds with current statements about Sorcery (Key phrase "Something that you know"). Moreover there is more to sorcery than just the magic of the Malkioni. A good example would be the Zenshin of Vormaini who work with the Joserui. I disagree strongly with your description of Shamans as predators. Been waiting to use that one for quite a while, have you? How does it relate to the point that I made - by saying shamans can't be sorcerors, you are relying on a rather limited view of shamans. I'm not going to rebut your personal theories about shamanism and sorcery but merely to point out they rely on little more than your personal theories rather than anything actually stated in the Guide or HeroQuest: Glorantha. Your original statement was that Arkat only brought a Man-of-All's understanding of sorcery thus implicitly Trolls could not become adepts. And I hestitate to describe any Mistress Race Troll's understanding of sorcery as "limited". I really don't see why you think Gaiseron is so important in the Loskalmi scheme of things. I would have thought Siglat to be far more influential. What Orlanthi condemnation of sorcery? What the Orlanthi condemn is magic worked without the co-operation of Gods and Spirits (KoS p209), a definition which includes the Malkioni. Sorcery use is not common among the Orlanthi for any number of economic reasons other than it being bad magic.

Making up gods and their magic based on the perceived usefulness to their worshippers yields rather flat gods devoid of personality in my experience. I find it better to make the Gods provide well-defined magic and have secondary magic to fill in the gaps rather than have the Gods provide for everything. Only the biggest of Gods (Orlanth etc) should have a magic for every ocassion while second tier gods such as Kargzant would be far less comprehensive. You really have to ask Greg that. In any event, Hyalor would have better horse magics than Kargzant.

No I do not. There is simply no reason to assume that I ever restricted Hrestoli to such a precise group of people. What I did tick you off for was to say "New Idealist Hrestoli of Loskalm" (among other banal phrasing) where New Idealist Hrestoli or Loskalmi Hrestoli would have sufficed. By being unnecessarily ultra-precise in your wording you run the risk of 1) making sweepingly incorrect statements about the group that you refer to (ie Hrestoli can't become Adept Sorcerors) 2) wasting people's time with digression (we only started talking about Hrestoli because you made a statement about sorcery in a discussion about Pent!) What every happened to the simple definition that Hrestoli is the theory and practice of Henosis or Joy, the unity of one's mind with the invisible God. Simple, elegant and avoids all this handwringing about whether some populations of Malkioni are Hrestoli and if so, how Hrestoli are they? I still can't get over your "unknown quanity of Irensavelism and influence of the unorthodox Perfecti among them" above. What even waste words writing that? Do you think others do not know? And then having mentioned it, you drop the matter leaving others wondering what the point of mentioning them was. If it wasn't important, not including the extraneous detail would make your writing a much better read. And finally we get to a discussion of what I actually wrote about the Hrestoli, the point of the digressions about reincarnation and poulations having eluded me. All this however rests on the use of the Tales of the Reaching Moon writeup which isn't canon. More importantly it fails to engage with my actual contention - that the Knights may be understood as Rune Lords who have mastered the art of Sorcery (something which Joerg denied) Apologies in general for the heated tone of the post. I'll go back to being more civil in future postings.