metcalph

Geography has changed dramatically elsewhere in Glorantha. I really don't see this as a refutation. Revealed Mythologies has some errors so I'm really not fussed about the inconsistencies found therein. In any case, that represents an Eastern Islanders view (whereas a Kralori view would be have say Niang Mao instead of Mashunasan). Judging from the Vormaini section of the Guide, I no longer believe that Osdero is another name for Metsyla. A dialect cannot be spoken officially (and the guide calls it an actual language rather than a dialect). In Zheng Guiren, the officials would speak and write Kralori while the locals would speak a Sofali language. I imagine the situation exists all over Kralorela much as it does in the Real World. What Vayobi unified would have been the different official languages as opposed to the non-Kralori dialects which there was no interest n. I'm afraid you are misled by Dara Happan mythology. The Naverians are a mixture of two cultures, the Estardavi (under the Red King) and the Wendarians (under Naveria). Both are considerably distant from their ancestors that emerged from the Green Age. The Estardavi are the Made People (the story of their creation is in the Glorious ReAscent p10) and is depicted as occurring well into the Golden Age. Naveria's home culture was a mixture of the Male and Female Tribes (AroTurru and Agraketae) whose meeting and union also occurs in the Golden Age. Valare describes these as taken part in the Wendarian Age (Golden Age) rather than the Provarian Age (Green Age) Brightface was first male leader of the Franaans of Darsen rather than the Hinnae of what later became Naveria. He had been appointed in the eighth generation after the first White Queen (according . It is my belief that the rule of the White Queens marks the Early Golden Age while the rule of the Brightface, the Red King and Yelm takes part in the Middle Golden Age (Murharzarm is Late Golden Age). The Dara Happans have purposely forgotten everything related to the White Queens in order to promote the supremacy of Yelm. If and when they do encounter the White Queen in mythology, they assume her to be a degeneration of Yelm's Perfect Empire rather than a precursor. As for Nochet being about as old, yes I agree. The Grandmothers are lying here too for similar reasons. I'm not really concerned about what the God Learners might have called him. Even if Ebe were representative of a Kralori of the Green Age, the fact that the Kralori believe Aptanace to be his son means little in terms of determining when Aptanace lived. The scheme could have been Ebe was brought to intelligence and awareness by the love of Okerio (marking the beginning of the Golden Age). They begat a dynasty of increasingly intelligent cultural heroes, the latest and greatest of whom was Aptanace. Much later on, the Kralori omit all the possible ancestors between Ebe and Aptanace in order to further glorify the impact of Okerio. So Aptanace could have been very early Golden Age, middle Golden Age or even late Golden Age. It depends on how what the Aptanacid culture is like and that we don't have enough information. I said making use of rivers (dams and irrigation). That is still late Golden Age. But Durev isn't exactly early Golden Age is he? He's more like Storm Age. Tada is well into the west and lived well in the Storm Age (the first mention of him in the mythic maps has in the Middle Storm Age - Guide p689). Tada also had troubles with the Basmoli and allied with the Vingkotlings thus again he is not comparable to Aptanace. I would avoid trying to draw connections all over the place. Oorduren lived on the far side of Abzered. NiangMao would have been far more likely to consult with the Ineffable Thirteen then he would with Oorduren. But I believe that whoever NiangMao consulted with came from within Kralori mythology (HeenMaroun etc). I doubt it was the Dragonewts because when the Dragon People are described in the Guide, nobody thinks to mention the Dragonewts of Fanzai and Hum Chang. Hence I think the Dragonewts came later as a result of Daruda. Secondly NiangMao is active in Puchai whereas Aptanace is primarily active in Hanjan. Any culture influenced by NiangMao would therefore be a contemporary culture of the Aptanacids. While Shavaya invented a great many things, I think it an error to describe the people he helped as Hsunchen. They were Kralori just like the people of Aptanace and NiangMao. Shavaya was ruling in the Late Storm Age (Guide p692)and Kralorela had been ruled by Metsyla for up to forty or fifty thousand years. Just because Bodkartu appears in Halisayan's mythology does not mean that she, Thalurzni and Halisayan form a mythic whole. Halisayan would have two mythic cycles - her life with Thalurzni and her life with Bodkartu. As for the effect of the Pill of Immortality, I think Halisayan was a dead goddess or a corpse at the time. The Pill of Immortality brought her back to be able to be worshipped by the Kralori during the Great Darkness. My problem with your current style of theorizing is that you tend to assume that if an X figure appears, it must have been the real X that was interacted with. Whereas I am seeing mythologies as reactions to and interpretations of events of cosmic importance (coming of death, death of the Sun). I prefer to keep interactions within the same region (what happened in Kralorela stays in Kralorela) early in the Golden Age with wider interactions taking place much later in the Storm Age. For example, if I were to posit a connection between the Kralori Empire and Genert, I would rule out the early Emperors in favour of the later ones. In the Golden Age, there wouldn't an awareness of a world beyond the boundaries of Kralorela whereas in the Storm Age, the countries have united and conquered their local menaces and are struggling with their each other. Shavaya is described as ruling in the later Storm Age/Lesser Darkness (Guide p692). Daruda himself isn't mentioned until the Great Darkness (Guide p695). Secondly Sekever isn't mentioned in connection with Govmeranen but rather the Minister of Fire (Guide p262 - probably a successor to HeenMaroun). Again, I do not understand why you think there is no vegetation.

No. I think they originally lived in a shallow sea or lake and their land dried up. Rebellus Terminus is Pelorian mythology and I really wouldn't use it in this context. It implies certain assumptions about the nature of the Demon that are not necessarily true. Again HeenMaroun is a contemporary of Yelm, his mythology does not track closely with yelm at every particular nor should it. I count sixteen countries because Vayobi created the Kralori language from the more than fifteen languages (Guide p55). The extra one is Chern Durel. HeenMaroun is early/middle Golden Age. I really don't see a civilization founder existing at the end of the Green Age. Murharzarm, a parallel figure, is late Golden Age. Debate on when Aptanace was active depends on how developed his arts were when he lived. He could be much earlier than Murharzarm but then he would be a neolithic type much like the cultures of the Entekosiad. However he is twice mentioned in context with Rivers (Jumo is his son by a river goddess and another son, Julan Hombondol invents dams and irrigation). That suggests a late Golden Age as gloranthans begin to make use of the rivers. However he could also be founder of city life like of a Catal Hayuk level of development and the subsequent arts that developed after he lived were ascribed to a son of his as a way of incorporating it within his civilization. Aptanace is however not mentioned as a King or an Emperor. So I really see a city-state culture in Hanjan. The lack of Aptanace deeds in Wanzow (other than being born there) suggests an attempt to civilize Wanzow much later. Or Thaluzrni could have just married the Goddess Halisayan long after the Doom Conjunction as Bodkartu doesn't appear in his mythology. Careful now. The Boshan believe Daruda to have been one of them. That doesn't mean that Daruda comes from Boshan. If the Turtle People were betrayed by someone who wanted to become a Dragon, the motive is strong for that traitor to be identified as Daruda when it came to being ruled by the Dragon Emperors. Ergo effective magical resistance to draconic imperialism. The passage is from Heaven Corrupted in the Glorious ReAscent p74 and goes: Except that Daruda's reign and title of Mover of Heaven stem from the Great Darkness, not when he was studying to become a Dragon. Yothbedta's Stream is only mentioned in context of ShangHsa and there seems to be an error in that Yothbedta is a Plant Goddess. I think Greg meant Yothenara but Summer Land Heaven is mentioned is described as a resting place for mortals between lives according to Revealed Mythologies p125 It's from Gods of Glorantha (it even survives in HeroQuest Voices). Reconcilation is possible by assuming that virtuous Kralori stay longer at Summer Land Heaven so that they have a greater chance of being with the Emperor when he passes on. I'm not sure where you get the uninhabited bit from. There are peoples on Vithela according to Revealed Mythologies (Venform, Mashunasan etc) while the Guide p477 has a ship from Vithela docking to trade.

Sages are not necessarily ascetics in Glorantha. The text speaks of the "Boshani folk religion descended from the ancient Turtle People". In other words, they are not Turtle People but their ancestors were Turtle People in the distant past. Just state Dragon People which is what the Guide (p283) calls them. Secondly the Dragon People were said to 1) perhaps ruled before the coming of the Emperors or 2) the First Emperors (TarnGatha and HeenMaroun) may or may not have been Dragon People. In any event, the Boshan ritual refers to Daruda (or a contemporary) who is considerably later than the first Emperors So in short the Dragon People are presumed to have been around in the early Golden Age. They disappear or devolve mysteriously such that Metsyla (not a Dragon) is ruling in the late Golden Age and afterwards. Personally I divide Kralorela up into sixteen different countries, with Aptanace dominating one region and the various Emperors being parallel dynasties rather than consecutive rulers. The whole mythology is unified under the reign of Vashanti whose Web of Righteous Knowledge distorts the chronology. Sekever becomes a mythical conflation of three enemies - the Blood Sun worshippers, the Trolls and the Huan To (while outside Kralorela, he's seen as a Kralori Emperor). Daruda's studies could have been during the Storm Age before Sekever came. The time between becoming Infinite and returning to the World of Life and Death is not stated in the text.

I think from the position given in Esrolia: Land of Ten Thousand Goddess, it is the same as the modern city of Monros (according to the Guide). Since Monros is also said to be the name of a King, it probably was part of the Adjusted Lands with Monros as the King of the City (and surrounding lands).

What olive trees? More like magical artisans. I think the golems are too slow to be used militarily and the primarily duty of the Solider's caste is to put the rogue golems down. It travels to a spot within spitting distance of the Machine Ruins and not at more likely places such as Talar's Hold or Casino Town? Mighty suspicious if you ask me. Soul and spirit work fine, the days of three separate terminologies are over. There is this: Whatever the God Forgotten are, they are not described as normal folk. They are described as living to the Brithini laws with immortals as rulers. Now it may be that the commoners are not immortal (I don't have an opinion on this) but some form of extended lifespan seems warranted.

Or that the standard chronology may be incorrect. Given that one of the leaders in the God Learner conquest was a Gillam De' Estau (of Estaurenic or the Estaurenids), I don't think the five cities have to be ports. Several places in the Quinpolic League are not in Pasos (Nolos, Pithdaros etc). The modern Quinpolic League could be harkening back to an earlier version. They took control of Kralorela in 768 ST before Eest was set up (775 ST) and they "stopped being God Learners" before the Middle Sea Empire was set up. As for whether ShangHsa was one of the five, the text says: If ShangHsa was appointed to assist them, it implies he was not one of the five (He could still be one of the five if it turns out the text was clumsily written, mind you).

Bliss in Ignorance appears to have two capitals. There's Su Lo Cha p290 but Can Shu the ruler lives in Zhi Ti. p288 Eristi the Doubter who made a curiously prominent appearance in the myths of Uz Lore appears to have ended up in Eristiland as does a certain magical item from Plunder!

p279 Kuochilinglishen,, the Western God of Travellers worshipped at Lianghe, is probably Kochalongson. Any relationship between him and the King of Lankst is unknown. p280 The Yellow Crane Tower in Seshan is probably based on the RW tower https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Crane_Tower

p278 Wah Hua has a barge temple to the Blue Dragons (note plural) of the Deep. Perhaps a reference to the offspring of the Blue Dragon? p278 Weiyanmiao Xulong. The writing about the August Temples of the Dragons of the Dawn implies that Thella is considered a Dragon in Kralorela.

p272 - it's not clear whether the Invisible Exarch controls the province of Hanjan. p274 - the Watchers of the Plasma are stated to be based in Kuchawn. In p289, they are stated to be based in Dara Happa.

p269 - I'm just curious why the God Learners were so obsessed with the Twin River Goddesses.

p262 - the picture is interesting in that it portrays Mikaday as a contemporary of Shavaya. Which isn't the case according to the standard Kralori myth. p264 - the New Dragons Ring consisting of "five people from five cities" hints at the Quinpolic League. p264 - When the Oceans closed, the False Dragon Emperor and the New Dragons Ring concealed the fact for a generation. This is perhaps related to the siege of Diao Yu Cheng (p272).

The Whitewall reference is actually to nearby Karse.

I generally agree. I really see many framgented magic practices. Any overall unity or philosophy was destroyed by the fall of the Machine City and the God Forgotten have no desire to rebuild their unity. Being sorcerous minded, they recognize four stages of lunar energies - the black, the blue, the red and the white. The Dark is to be avoided while the White is desired. For a long time, they were stuck in the blue magic zone and have within the past few centuries been cautiously exploring the red. The current oscillations of the Red Moon between Red and Black are a sign of its corruption and perversity (then again they may just be saying that so the local Orlanthi won't hit them on sight). The difference in colour of their moon magics and that of the Lunar Empire is a reflection of their philosophical differences. I think the astronomical calculator of Inolzi (KoS p80) is an attempt to calculate the pattern of the Blue Moon within the Sky (rising only when the Constellation of Lorion is directly in the East - Guide p648) and that the God Forgotten still use this to calculate auspicious times and avoid doing anything except casting protective spells when the streak happens or when the Red Moon is dark. The Eye that Pierces the Veil. Originally a magic designed to see the unseeable Blue Moon in the Sky. The caster feels their eyes grow immense and course with magical power (whereas oblivious outsiders only remark that the caster's eyes seem a bit bloodshot). Since the rise of the Red Moon, the psychedelic visions have become more intense and the position of seer has become restricted only to those of strong moral fibre or those who can function while totally burned out. The God Forgotten also teach a variation of this spell which makes Belintar visible to the caster and also onto the otherside. The Elevation of the Spirit. This takes a person's fluids and through careful treatments via a water corkscrew elevates it in quality to a more magical spirit. The spirit can be re-consumed, given to another or used to animate an human statue for a while. Animated statues and people under the influence of such spirits are filled with lunar energies that are slowly degraded through repeated Blue Streaks and Black Moon Days. The Strength of Lorion - as well as being a simple strength spell, the magic is used when Lorian is in the east to lift the soul upwards. Being mortals, the process is far longer than the Blue Moon's rise into the sky and nobody has even reached the Celestial City through this magic alone. People who have reached the Middle Heavens are notably more adept in wielding lunar energies but they are more vulnerable to the Blue Streak and Black Moon Days. Most of these magics would be practiced by all castes (most God Forgottenwould know one, some may know two, rarely three). The Zzaburi concern themselves with the practice of general sorcery

In which case they would have been described as Brithini rulers lording it over a native population, rather than a population following the Brithini forms of life and government. The Brithini do not have endogamous castes. According to Greg, when a woman has children, the first son is a farmer, the second a fighter, the third a Talar and the fourth a Zzaburi. Then the process starts over again.

I'm more inclined to think the God Forgotten don't grow food and other activities because it just seems wrong with how they are described ("are considered weirdly different by others in the world "). Following the example of Smith and Tinker (Guide p212 of Akem), I think Leonardo is of the Commoner Caste rather than being a Zzaburi. Rather than going out on their own to herd oxen to farm in the fields, the God Forgotten farmers are more inclined to craft golems from clay to do all the menial work. Where would they get the clay? By harvesting the sand and using alchemy. The golems are of fleeting quality, have to be supervised and rarely last more than a season before falling to pieces or running amok. Hence the God Forgotten spend their days making golems to do all the menial work required by their superiors. Apart from the Magic Road ending at the Machine Ruins? (Guide p254) I fear you have become too focused on a dictionary definition of Purification and use that to rigidly dismiss other possibilities. The Purification Rune was to reverse the process of Devolution to be closer to God (Middle Sea Empire p46). It does not entail by that definition the removal impure bits through separation (that would be the Death Rune). One can become closer to God through an general elevation of the spirit from a lower state to a higher one (which is why I mentioned the water corkscrew before). It is supported through the imagery of Belintar in the Prince of Sartar Webzine. Even if the Zzaburi of God Forgot were to stubbornly insist that it is not an element, pretty much everybody else in the Holy Country who follows Belintar would treat it as an element. Unless they were already acquainted with the Moon Rune and Belintar burrowed from their lore

So the Blue People had internal divisions. Doesn't make them two separate ethnicities.

The Charles comment refers to the Hepherones' section in Arcane Lore. It will also be in the Glorantha Sourcebook but Hepherones is now a Carmanian mystic of Ganbarri circa 1200.

Slontos is the only place they are mentioned to have harassed. We don't know how they got there - a naval expedition or mystical roads - nor do we know what other places they may have harassed. They simply do not appear in Esrolian records to date. Since the Zaranistangi only controlled Melib circa 700 ST, I do find it dubious that they maintained a major invasion force in Slontos that lasted from 758 ST to 805 ST. Of the top of my head, I think the Waertagi transported an army to Slontos before their destruction in 718 to keep them under control. But when the Waertagi were destroyed, the Loper People in Slontos were now stranded. And safely stored in secure archives such as Zistorwal, Locsil and Feroda... The Blue People are Waertagi as is described in the Glorantha Sourcebook.

My theory when the specific Prince of Sartar webzine page first came up was that he was a Teshnan (specifically from Melib) who was part of Selenteen's Landing (a Teshnan enclave at the mouth of the River of Cradles!). This unusual background would explain why the Only Old One could not identify him yet the wizards of God Forgot predicted his arrival. It also explains why Belintar sets up the port of Dosakayo on Melib. Another possibility is that he is a Blueskin from Fonrit (specifically Yrania in Afadjann) as part of an early eruption of Lunar power that presaged the rise of the Yranian Leapers. He may also come from Zamokil but he seems far too sedentary for that. The other known populations of Blue People are the Zzaburi (however Belintar dresses differently than Carvak Zirvan), the Blue Vadeli (Belintar doesn't quite seem so... depraved) or the Oroninae of northwestern Peloria. (which would require Belintar to take an odd way to get Kethaela by swimming).

Joerg, I just wanted a theory. My questions were things that I felt your or anybody else's theory should address (I don't care whether the theory is right or wrong, I just want something that I can digest without having go back several post to find out what the subject of exchange was). I don't think the digressions about the the relationship between the Esvulari and the Intagreens at the Dawn are helpful as that's ancient history. What I want to know is what you think the God Forgottens are like *today*. The Esvulari are irrelevant as they don't do Moon Rune Magic. Insofar as I can work out, you believe that the Moon Rune Cult was imposed upon God Forgot by Belintar and they can no longer do it now because Belintar is dead and JarEel stole his Moon Magics. You also think the effects of the Moon Rune was largely tidal in origin and common to all the Holy Country. You think the Man Rune was important in God Forgot because it denotes tool use and you think the Moon Rune was used to see in another reality (such as the Eye that Pierces the Veil). Alright so far? (I can see but not going to comment on apparent contradictions for now).

Gemborg lies within the boundaries of Caladraland (Guide p243) and is about 140 miles from the City of Wonders. Dwarf Mine lies about 190 miles away.

And this differs from the Moon Rune in what way? That doesn't answer the more important question of why the Moon Rune is so prominent in God Forgot today and what they use it for. I don't find your explanation that Man Rune = Humanism to be all that persuasive as Humanism is a Staffordism meaning humans (or rather mortals) should rule and not the gods. They do so through the use of Magic and Law and not through manipulation of the Man Rune (which isn't widely used for that purpose in the West). But to take your point that the Man Rune is important in God Forgot. What do you think they use it for? It's not sorcery as they have the Law Rune for that. Since it's modified by the Moon Rune in the head region, all I can think of is Mindblast. Coupled with the Eye that Pierces the Veil (Guide p238 and 239) and we have an insanity cult. But then we run headfirst into the fact that the God Forgottens are Brithini. So my question is how do the God Forgotten use the Moon and Man Runes within their Brithini lifestyle.? I think the Wand was a spiritual corkscrew myself. The Zistorite pointed at people in an attempt to refine their spirit (lift it from a lower place to a higher one). That it's apparently capable of destructive power is because the Red Moon has manifested and has overloaded the magical connections (which was originally supposed to be used in connection with the Blue Moon) with raw lunar power.

Yeah so? I feel your alternative explanation is a bit too heavily focused on the origin of the Lunar Powers within God Forgot whereas what I'm looking for is the impact of the Lunar Powers within God Forgot today. I'm not looking for unconditional acceptance of my theory, I'm looking for interesting interpretations so I can steal bits from them and use them to shore up my theory. 1) What do the God Forgottens think about the Moon Rune? What do they use it for? What do they think of that Big Red Object in the Sky? 2) How do the God Forgottens reconcile their Moon Rune faith with their Brithini lifestyle? Do only the Zzaburi practice it or do they teach it to anybody who wants to know? 3) How do the God Forgotten reconcile their worship of Belintar with their Brithini lifestyle? Do they teach their wisdom to others? 4) What were the antecedents of their Moon Rune worship in the days of the Zistorites and before. I'm not interested in seeing dour quotations of source material coupled with a timidity to go no further than what the sources say. That's boring. You should use the source material as a springboard. (e.g. "The God Forgotten use the Moon Magics through the Eye that Pierces the Veil"). I'm not interested in an explanation for everything - you don't have to explain the wand (I use it because it's the earliest mention of the Machine City and a surprising origin for a Lunar artefact). You could even use the Spiral Map (I draw the line at it being used as an canonical unchanging refutation with various interpretations not found in the map or the accompanying text). As for your suggestion that God Forgot is associated with the Moon because of the tides, one of Inolzi the Learned's three devices was the water corkscrew - a mechanical device for raising water from a lower place to a higher one. It could also be used as a explanation for the origin of the tides (with some difficulty but then early astronomers had epicyles) and a metaphor for the elevation of the soul.

It isn't an extrapolation of a single magic item. It's from *three* seperate sources. 1) God Forgot's surprising association with the Moon Rune in the Prince of Sartar Webzine 2) The drama about the Purification Rune in the Middle Sea Empire p46-47 (including the statements that it was made up). 3) The aforementioned wand. Now you can disagree with my theory, but I really would like to see an alternative explanation for 1) rather than doubting the foundations of my theory. And I do not think that JarEel invented the connection, Belintar imposed it on God Forgot or the Lunar Connections were there but nobody recognized them are viable as explanations. But was the Moon Rune one of the Runes that they knew of? I don't believe the wand is a central item and a vital connection or even the One Ring of the Zistorites. I believe it was a magical tool using the purification rune that survived the destruction of the Machine City and the Mostali looting of it (possibly bogus conspiracy theory: the Silver Dwarves used the lore of the Machine City for the spells by which they made the Red Moon). How important it was to the Zistorites is unknown. How important it is to the current God Forgotten is, I think, not very much as they have shied away from Purification of the World as an error which destroyed the Machine City. The colour of God Forgot is pinkish-Red so I think the Red Moon is clearly indicated as its source (I think the differences in red are because they reject the use of Chaos). God Forgot could have been associated with the Blue Moon *before* the rise of the Red (as Sandy, I think, suggested for Artmal as an explanation of his rune spell in Troll Gods)