M Helsdon

31 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I think of mermaids and srlkies as oceanic beings.

Orlanthi and his kin slew all the Manthi merfolk in the inland waters during the Gods War.

27 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Sorry I missed toy at Dragonmeet.

You missed the JC meetup there?

1 hour ago, Soccercalle said:

Any news on a possible publishing date? I try to order a couple of books at the same time to save money on shipping.

Waiting on art, so some time in the first quarter next year.

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

So how does watching the Blue Streak fall into Magasta's Pool give any clue to when the next passage is going to happen?

What passage? Her next climb and fall?

After the Blue Streak falls, you know there will be a low tide for about a day (steersmen know when Lorion will be in the east), and then when she starts to climb, the tide will rise for at least a day. You know the maximum the tide can rise to by the highest high tide mark and by the regular cycle of the Red Moon.

Tubs have the advantage that they can draft beach and load and unload in a matter of hours, so they are less liable to be affected by the tides.

11 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Blue Streak is visible only during the plummet, which is when the tides run out. During her climb, Annilla remains invisible. You know that it will return to the far side of the Sky Dome when Lorion crosses the Gate of Dawn, but you don't know how fast she will rise.

Yes I know. 

25 minutes ago, Joerg said:

There you have a term bound to confuse non-native speakers in this context (and presumably some native speakers too).

Fortunately the illustration shows one being used without requiring the use of nautical terminology. 

It is a little difficult to avoid using nautical terminology when writing about nautical matters.

27 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Would sailors rig up a beam from two logs to lift heavy cargo items across the railing?

Tubs were loaded and unloaded by hand, so setting up a frame to lift cargo wasn't necessary. 

28 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Which begs the question how well the sailors can predict the tides, especially the Annilla tides (as the effects of Storm and the "Red Moon" are rather predictable).

By observing the Blue Streak, and seeing the relative position of the last high mark and the sea level. Down to experience and observation.

29 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Shelter from wave action is dependent on the tides and shifts in the wind.

Which is why bays and lagoons with relatively narrow mouths are ideal harbor sites, especially if in a position sheltered from the prevailing wind.

Draft beaching was historically used in the Mediterranean, Baltic, and on the British coast at places like Hengistbury Head (which has been used as a harbor site from the Bronze Age and probably even further back).

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Nice image, and yes, tubs will go alongside sandbars in tidal zones near the channels.

And beaches. But not alongside. Note that the bow is pointing towards the beach.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Are the tubs that flat-bottomed that there is no list to either side?

Note the shores used to prop up the vessel.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Beaching at the summit of the Annilla cycle may ground a vessel for days, in extreme cases for weeks, which may make masters hesitant to risk this at minor markets.

Which is why you won't draft beach at high tide.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Getting caught in the tidal flats threatens loss of ship outside of the Mirrorsea Bay. Wave action against beached vessels may break the structures.

This is why draft beaching is performed in sheltered bays, lagoons, and estuaries where wave action is limited.

I've just shared a draft of one of the illustrations in my book.

Mark Smylie has just sent me a penciled draft of, no pun intended, the draft beaching illustration for comment. 

A merchant tub can draft beach in the shallows allowing cargo to be loaded and unloaded by people wading into the water. Later she can either push off using the sweeps or poles, or wait for the tide to rise.

This also nicely shows how amphorae could be stood upright in the sand.

I've asked for a few very minor changes: adding the anchor and showing a large cargo amphora.

On 12/14/2022 at 6:53 PM, Agentorange said:

So, Gor seems to be a Suffix denoting the darker grimmer female  aspects of  the earth  pantheon: Babeester Gor, Maran Gor, Ana Gor. Thus more of a title than a name ?

If I recall correctly, Greg wrote once that the derivation of Gor was Gore (in its usage as blood, murder, bloodshed, violence). 

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

So the Kyrenia's turning radius would be larger in relation to its length, with only the dual steering oars turning it.  

Under sail - of course. Probably also using the sweeps. Depends on the sea state and wind. A trireme had to be fast and manoeuvrable. Long ships and round ships are very different beasts.

1 minute ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The trireme tour video shows details I had not known before.  So, turn in 2.5 times its length.  I wonder whether that was just with the rudder, or with the inside oarsmen backing water?  

There is no rudder - two steering oars. Just using the oars, one side rowing one way, the other the opposite, and turning the steering oars.

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

They seem to get acceptable speed, a slow walk, from just four sweeps.

Very calm water, no wind, perhaps some momentum remaining, a very very slow 'walk'. Good enough to get into a sheltered harbor and moor. And of course, whilst ballasted, she isn't carrying a full cargo.

The Kyrenia isn't a large ship - 14m long, beam 4.4m, average speed under sail 4-5 knots with a good wind; 10 knots in ideal conditions running downwind. She sometimes briefly achieved 12 knots.

The Olympias with 170 oars made 8 knots; 9.5 knots briefly with an exceptional team of oarsmen. Perhaps in ancient times an experienced crew could do better. Thucydides wrote of a non-stop voyage of 340km between Athens and Mytilene that took a day suggesting an average speed of 7.5 knots but this may have been an elite crew with a first class ship, dried out and fairly new.

The original ship the Kyrenia was based on was old when she sank - about twenty years old if I recall correctly, patched and mended probably to the point that the hull failed in bad weather, and she would have been slower than the reconstruction, which benefits from being newly built.

33 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I didn't know about those reproduction ships.

29 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

That's very interesting.  I didn't know about those reproduction ships.

58 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

How good was the tub's " almost as good" tacking? How close to the wind,

Maybe five and a half points into the wind, sometimes worse, whilst an ancient fore-and-aft perhaps five points into the wind. Varies of course, with conditions and the skill of the crew.

The galley wasn't so good, as the slightest heeling over and she took on water through the oar ports, even when blocked with leather sleeves.

58 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

what was windward speed vs. down wind speed?

Windward versus downwind? Impossible to quantify. Depends on the conditions, and the amount of leeway. Sailing windward is going to be very much slower - you may travel a similar distance but not necessarily towards where you wanted to go, and beware that lee shore.... The journey you make in a day sailing downwind might take three, four or more days trying to sail upwind, and may be nigh impossible or dangerous - you might anchor up and wait for the wind to change, or sail only part of the day using the daily winds blowing off and onshore each day. Oars are an answer, but rowing upwind adds to the effort, and if the wind is too strong, unwise.

There were times when the Kyrenia stayed at anchor in habor waiting for a favorable wind.

15 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I doubt that ancient 50 oared galleys ever tried to tack (and being drawn up on beaches at night, they had much shallower keels or no keels, so much less grip on the water) , but they would row better and might wear.  

A square sail rig could tack (as has been demonstrated by the modern reconstructions of the Olympias trireme and the Kyrenia tub), but the galley was limited by her shallow draft. The tub was shown to be almost as good as a fore-and-aft rigged vessel for tacking. Experiments have shown that the large steering oars acted as leeboards, helping ancient vessels tack.

The Kyrenia could easily wear, but none of the reports I have access to detail the Olympias attempting to wear, but she probably could. In an unfavorable wind the Olympias would probably rely upon her oars, but due to the low freeboard to her lowest oarports would probably only do so in relatively benign wind and sea states. Under oars, Olympias could turn in about two lengths.

50 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

I would prefer a "first" oceanic supplement to focus on the areas closest to the main Hero Wars action. That means the seafaring parts of the Holy Country. Including the city of Nochet if that is not first part of an "Esrolian supplement". I would also expect it to have more information about the Wolf Pirates.

The full title of Ships & Shores is Ships & Shores of Southern Genertela. The book concentrates on the ships and lands of the southern coast, and especially Choralinthor Bay. The cover depicts a tub approaching Nochet.

My book includes an appendix on naval combat (referencing The Magic World BRP fantasy RPG Seafaring rules). 

On 11/16/2022 at 11:30 PM, Agentorange said:

Lo and behold.........

I've been working on this for more than a year......

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

when you put so many "human" (or not) gods and goddesses I was a little bit disturbed as the only hell-s I "know" (so few) is the greek one, where you can meet your ancestors or anyone you know.

Glorantha has at least seven 'hells' plus a number of special ones, such as those the Lunars put important enemies in. The 'hells' I list are human/troll because I don't have information about the beliefs of other races.

10 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I imagine that dead trolls souls may be met here but what about others ? Humans, merfolks, elves… 

in fact except darkness creatures and « heroquestors / gods » who will you meet ?  Are all (part of) souls sent to some hell ? Or just bad people (Daka Fal’s judgement) ? Or … ?

Hell is often a synonym for afterlife or Underworld. One entity's hell is another's 'heaven'. Bad trolls might find themselves in the bright Sky World, the heavens being their 'hell'.

A chart of the Hells I made a while ago. Might be useful?

On 11/27/2022 at 11:35 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Why would normal guardians who are there to stop the dead from leaving stop you from leaving Hell if you are alive? Or does it default to anyone entering Hell becoming deceased automatically? Are they all just simply jealous of the PC's being alive?

If you are in the Underworld, you are dead.

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/5521-what-happens-when-youre-dead/#comment-81457

7 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

ssaries has gone from Trade/Communication, Movement & Harmony in earlier rules

To just Movement & Harmony in RQG

Anyone know why that change happened?

It's because of game mechanics, I believe. The Trade Rune still exists in Glorantha but isn't a Rune player characters can 'own'.

52 minutes ago, Andrew M said:

So far its looking ok for trains. Fingers crossed.

More strikes announced today, no dates as yet.