M Helsdon

I imagine that such ice dams are going to happen to almost every river under the effect of the Windstop, so there's going to be flooding for some distance down river, until the waters become sufficiently spread out on flood plains (and, given the catastrophic flow, above the normal flood plain)? For the Zola Fel, Old Pavis and its walls are going to have an impact, diverting some water before it bursts through the Rubble? New Pavis might be virtually unscathed, though Riverside may get wet... That west wall might have its foundations damaged. Further downstream, the New Bog is going to temporarily become a lake, and possibly the North and South Bogs too. Hmm, the waters may wash out things hidden for a very long time...? In Sartar, the Upland Marsh will take most of the excess, expanding dramatically, and Delecti's islands may become literally swamped. Things will get decidedly wet at Duck Point...?

People are going to live off their supplies in their root cellars and then from their clan's storage pits, and then by raiding their neighbours. There are going to be dead things in the snow: deer and other animals, and people... Maybe they risk eating the frozen meat, animal, hopefully... The Lunar garrisons are going to sit on their supplies, but they are going to suffer - few supply caravans getting through - and may decide to plunder the natives. The Telmori and ghouls will be raiding in Sartar. The Trolls may attempt to reinstate the Shadow Tribute. It's a major population dieback event. I suspect entire clans perish and tribes fragment.

My assessment: Freezing conditions in Sartar: Hollri ice demons come down from the mountains and the lowlands of Sartar are covered in ice and snow: streams and rivers freeze over in the hills and dwindle elsewhere. In Esrolia normal Dark Season conditions persist - no snow, but chilly. The River of Cradles probably shrinks below its normal Dark Season depth and becomes unnavigable in places. There's probably still some water flowing, for a time, but eventually it's going to dwindle. My assessment: the Upland Marsh is covered in ice; in some places thick, in other places thin. The water below becomes increasingly stagnant and stinking. Just as ghouls are active elsewhere in Sartar, Delecti's minions have plenty of freshly dead or almost dead to harvest. I'd imagine that the Choralinthor is unaffected, but trying to cross it using a sail won't work. Trade in Nochet slows because merchant ships can't easily get in and out of port unless they hire rowers. Triremes and other military vessels can still cross the bay, but it takes time and effort. With food running out, and prices rising from the few merchants who can pay for rowers, Nochet is going to have food riots. The water freezes as it fails, becoming hail. It impacts the ground and freezes solid. Freezes over and starts to dwindle as its waters become ice.

For anyone interested in the effects of the stirrup for horse archers, 'The Composite Bow' by Mike Loades is recommended reading.

In magic rich Glorantha, the death of a Land God (or Goddess, most seem to be Goddesses) has dire consequences. Prax and the Wastelands are the Gloranthan equivalent of Mad Max land. There are areas of limited fertility and water where lesser spirits survived. For that matter, the death of Genert is probably why the northern continent is so damaged compared with Pamaltela where the Land God survived.

That chimes with the mass migration after the events of 830.

The Guide tells us when some grasslands were discovered: Ankori's Bison in Winter Grasslands: Ankori, a khan of the Elstorana dynasty rediscovered this ancient grassland during the Second Age migrations. Arnstadle’s Own Grassland: This fertile grassland was found by the Sable Riders during the Second Age migrations. Wahoranstol: This grassland stretches along most of the southern coast. It was explored only slightly by Waha, but was occupied by the First and Second Migrations. Seven Picture Walls of Artash: The Seven Picture Walls were discovered by the Praxian hero Arnvish Artash during the Second Age migrations. Unfortunately no dates are given for the First and Second Migrations and I wonder if Age is missing from the sentence?

All we basically have, for an obscure form of cavalry is a name. We know little to nothing of their equipment or their tactical use. I'm also uncertain why sarissophoroi are even relevant, when we have canonical illustrations of Praxians using high horned saddles where useful, and blankets. Except for the need for both Glued objects to be at rest, relative to each other - something improbable for a rider in motion. As most of the sources for Robin Hood date to around the 14th and 15th century, when the capability of the longbow was demonstrated at Sluys, Crecy, Poiters and Agincourt, the context of the story is apparent...

Understood. Apologies for being a pain, but the Guide historical maps show the Praxians confined to Prax and not being present in the Wastelands until around 400 ST, expanding northwards by 700 ST and further east by 900 ST, and only getting back into Prax around 1220 ST. However, the Timeline states 830 – Wastelands: Giants and nomads defeated by Pavis at Too Tall Battle. City of Pavis founded. Praxian nomads enter Wastes. And the Wastelands chapter says: In 830, the Hero named Pavis animated the Faceless Statue that sat atop the Throne in Dagori Inkarth. He allied with the Pure Horse People, and together Pavis, his army, and his statue marched to the old site of Robcradle. At the Too Tall Battle, Pavis defeated the giants and nomads, and crippled the god Waha. Pavis healed Waha to bring peace between Pavis and the nomads. That same year, Pavis founded the city that bears his name and resurrected ancient magics which antagonized sleeping giants and caused years of struggle. The giants lost and more foreigners came to Prax. The Wastelands were inhabited only by Chaos creatures until Waha led many of his people beyond the Vultures Country after his shameful defeat by Pavis and the Faceless Statue. They found it to their liking, and since then the animal nomads have struggled to survive there, and succeeded well. From thence they have come to raid the civilizations and Pentans about them. The text suggests that in the First Age, the Animal Nomads were living only in Prax, and for much of the Second Age as well. Obviously, there's a potential discrepancy between the text and the maps...? I have no idea which is correct.

Would it be relevant to show the Serpents? The Guide says that these seasonal rivers can be relied upon to appear every one to four years. Whilst some beasts can derive water from what they graze, many can't? The serpents and rare oases are going to be even more critical resources than fodder.

Not really: a horse archer is likely to have at least as good a range as any enemy archers, and is presenting a very brief target of opportunity. Given that light cavalry have mobility, if they are fighting infantry this gives them a distinct advantage. Yet horse archers often were individually excellent archers. They can fight in two distinct modes: quick inaccurate 'death in the air' and accurate targeting. The sarissophoroi were light cavalry, and there's very little period material on their equipment, other than their lance, which is assumed to be a shorter version of the infantry Sarissa. If they were using a long spear, then a basic blanket would have been insufficient to keep them in their seat. Unfortunately the one item that might have provided evidence about how the Macedonians kept their seat using a long spear from horseback (admittedly of later Roman manufacture but possibly based on a lost Hellenistic Greek painting), the Alexander Mosaic is damaged and the saddle detail is missing. So there's little period evidence, but plenty of experimental re-enactor evidence that using a long spear effectively from horseback is impractical without a firm saddle. For Mindspeech you'd need an intelligent horse, and whilst they exist in Glorantha, most Gloranthan horses are as bright as real world horses, so talking to them mind-to-mind would get you no further than shouting a command. Now a war horse can be trained to obey commands, but there's limit to what they can do. [I believe Mindspeech is being deleted from the new RuneQuest.] As you note, Glue has a short duration - fine for a few uses in combat, but to Glue two objects (non-living) together, they must be at relative rest to one another and not moving. So you'd have to have the horse stand still, Glue your trews or whatever to the blanket or saddle, and then go for the enemy. I don't believe that's entirely practical in battle, and if you try something impractical in combat, you may not survive it...

Glorantha can either be an extremely detailed and complex setting, or a broad background. The level of detail can appear daunting, but you don't have to know or use all of it, or even a fraction of the detail. It's there if you want it, but there are still plenty of areas left to the imagination. If you examine a pdf of the Guide to Glorantha, read the first few chapters, but the rest is there to be dipped into as needed. The nature of any game in Glorantha very much depends on what you want it to be: there's room for epic high fantasy quests, treasure hunting adventure, military adventure, or whatever you want it to be. The main theme, which can either be center stage or distant background in the most common setting, Dragon Pass, is the conflict between the Lunar Empire and the nation of Sartar. The majority of people in the world of Glorantha are initiates in one or more cults, much as the inhabitants of ancient Greece, Anatolia, Mesopotamia etc. were initiates in the cults of their various deities. As such, cults provide a framework for their social interactions and behavior. Some people are pious, some people pay their dues and continue with their daily life, and some people strive to rise in importance in their cult. Some cults are more demanding than others, and there's that background struggle between the Lunar Empire and the various cults which oppose it. The main factional split among humans is - the divide between the Lunars and those who oppose them. Some cults oppose the Lunars more than others, but the Lunar cults and others fill pretty much the niches you'd expect: there are warrior cults, healer cults, knowledge cults, etc. But this struggle can be center stage or off stage, depending on the setting and style used. For example, the city of New Pavis, built beside the massive ruins of Old Pavis, the Big Rubble, is either occupied or liberated from the Lunars, depending on the date, but many of the inhabitants are interested in the treasures and dangers in the Rubble. And of course there are non-humans with their own agendas. To quote from the Guide: In some Gloranthan stories the player characters will be ordinary villagers who are caught up in exciting and alarming circumstances. In others, the typical player character is an outsider to the region in which the adventure takes place. He is likely to be a wanderer in search of fame, prestige, or simple wealth, using his considerable skills in personal combat and magic wherever he travels. Such characters have a greater chance of survival and are more exciting to play for younger players. What are some examples of Gloranthan adventurer occupations? Traditional Gloranthan player characters that we've seen include scruffy treasure-hunters, famous mercenaries, treacherous professional spies, distinguished emissaries, drunken caravan merchants, even roving scholars - basically, anyone working in hazardous activities for a chance at a big gain. Note that merchants are not listed incorrectly: a merchant's life can be very risky as well as very lucrative in Glorantha.

There's another factor that applies in Glorantha more than the real world: cultural conservatism. Most of the Third Age cultures appear extremely cautious regarding innovation (the Lunars being the obvious exception) following the disasters at the close of the Second Age following the rampant experimentation of the EWF and God Learners. It may also be that magic also has an impact - if your battle magics rely upon traditional rituals, adopting something new could be disastrous (there is mention of regiments carrying things they can no longer use in combat, but must have because their magical traditions require it). Almost all of the 'new' technologies are ancient, from before Time or shortly after the Dawn with very few periods of successful innovation: even shieldwall and phalanx warfare is derived from ancient models. Again, in the Third Age only the Lunars (and later Argrath) seem to experiment to any degree with military magics, techniques and technologies. Something different, that might seem fairly harmless to us, like a new type of plow, or saddle, or stirrups, might have all sorts of ramifications, and present a potential hazard. Adopting something new probably requires a Heroquest, and even then might not be widely adopted.

Interesting. Different rainfall patterns would probably affect the limited vegetation available, even in such a devastated ecosystem, and as several Praxian beasts have distinct diets might impact their populations. The shifted Snow Line would affect the territorial range of the Pentans and Animal Nomads, leading to a different pattern of clashed between them. The Hillside Bison Secret Grasslands would be appealing to southerly Pentans, if they knew of it.

As the Snow Line was further south prior to the Third Age (Lunar Kalikos Icebreaker climate change) might this mean that some areas of the Wastelands were a little wetter in the First and Second Age, and perhaps a very little more fertile?

Any advantage in battle is useful. Stability aids accuracy. True, though both used a saddle and no stirrups. However, Sarrisaphoroi (sic) were usually scouts or flank skirmishers and armed with a shorter spear than the infantry sarissa. As there's only the historical terrestrial model to base things on, and Gloranthan troops often closely follow these in terms of equipment and tactics (despite magical augmentation), it's the only thing to do.

I know. Standing in stirrups permits the use of a larger bow, a slight height advantage, and stability, aiding accuracy. Ditto: Cataphracts and other heavy cavalry were using kontos lances and impact charges long before stirrups were introduced.

I used the US as I assumed most people would prefer that. However, the variation given for many animals soaks up the difference between US and Imperial units.

I know: the 4th Age material in 'King of Sartar' is at best debatable. This will probably label me as a heretic, but I've always felt that the 4th Age framing device was the weakest aspect of the book.

Interesting, but too late Iron Age for Glorantha.

Perhaps, but as magic seems to reduce in potency in the 4th Age, if the Sables survive, it's just a matter of Time...

Reposted here because it is relevant. On the Gods War Q&A thread, Jeff has posted this: Jeff Richard Collaborator about 4 hours ago I have to admit, I don't buy Lynn White's claims about stirrups being revolutionary. There's plenty of archaeological evidence that the stirrup was known to the Parthians, Sakas, and the Chinese, and a fair amount of speculation that it was known to the Scythians and others. So we have some stirrups in Glorantha - we know the Praxians use them. I suspect for the bison and high llama Riders, they are most important as a technique to get on and off their mount (they are awfully darn hard to mount without something like a stirrup). I don't think stirrups are used in the West though. They aren't feudal knights.

On the Gods War Q&A thread, Jeff has posted this: Jeff Richard Collaborator about 4 hours ago I have to admit, I don't buy Lynn White's claims about stirrups being revolutionary. There's plenty of archaeological evidence that the stirrup was known to the Parthians, Sakas, and the Chinese, and a fair amount of speculation that it was known to the Scythians and others. So we have some stirrups in Glorantha - we know the Praxians use them. I suspect for the bison and high llama Riders, they are most important as a technique to get on and off their mount (they are awfully darn hard to mount without something like a stirrup). I don't think stirrups are used in the West though. They aren't feudal knights.

I was attempting to capture the 'normal' values for assessing logistics. My numbers are based on real world intake, or extrapolation for extinct/fantasy creatures (a few questions to a professor of biology specializing in extinct herbivores). Even if a rhino in the Wastes only requires half the normal intake, they still have a significant 'footprint' regarding the amount they have to eat. It is clear that the Praxian rhinos, and to a lesser degree the high llamas are doomed to eventual extinction. The Wastelands will eventually, if they survive the Hero Wars, be the range of only sables (which eat almost any vegetation), zebras and the pygmy tribes. Big animals tend to suffer most when an ecosystem is stressed, and the Wastelands appear constantly stressed. Magic may preserve them for a while, but in a few centuries the rhinos will die out, as, tragically, they will in the wild in the real world in a decade or so.

And not steppe. There's a major difference between chaparral and grassland: far lower biomass in the former than the latter. But a very low upper limit, compared with the Eurasian Steppe or Pent: very much more territory required to feed relatively small herds, and small herds can only support low numbers of nomads, even though Praxian Beasts mostly eat different things. This is why the Animal Nomads tend to move in clans, not tribes en masse because except in a few areas the land cannot support a concentration of numbers. The Animal Nomads are going to have hard limits to their maximum population. I'll post this here, because it is relevant, unless Praxian animals have different dietary intake to their terrestrial equivalents (some are extrapolated because the equivalents are extinct, or have never existed, and there are numerous sources given different values for what a horse eats). Food lbs. per day Water Gallons per day Bison 24 5 Bolo Lizard 8 0.5 Demi-Bird 25# 2 Demon Horse 30# 1 High Llama 30-60 3-5 Horse 25-30 8-20 Impala 2-4 0.5-1 Mule 20-25 8-20 Ostrich 8 1.5 (but can go without drinking for days) Rhino 120 20 in a five day period Sable 20 2 Tusker 25 12 Unicorn 20-30 5-10 Zebra 20-30 5-10 # Fresh meat. The Rhino Tribe will be in trouble, but seem to be heading for extinction in Prax as their numbers are so small. This table suggests why.