M Helsdon

I'd also note that many of the grammatical issues so far reported aren't errors in grammar. Usages vary. I'd also note there was an exercise to utilise American spelling.

And therein you've combined the problems of the Gods Wall - it's an in-Glorantha 'document' so its meaning and context depend upon what the viewer projects onto it, not what it was intended to mean by whoever or whatever constructed it.

True, but I remain unconvinced of what exactly the Gods Wall shows, or who made it, or why. All we have is later supposition. I'm reminded of one of the oldest mythology books I have, printed in 1843. The Roman and Greek myths are there, slightly distorted (after all the originals were available to any well schooled gentleman, who would naturally be able to read Greek and Latin), but Indian and Chinese, and other non-European mythologies are presented in an increasingly odd way with serious inaccuracies. Reading the book it is apparent that the author thought the Romans and Greeks were virtuous pagans, but pagans nonetheless, who failed to realise their myths and deities were a corruption of the one true faith... The rest are just foreign pagan devil worshippers.

I'm not certain that it represents what 'modern' Dara Happans believe it to represent. it seems to be an ancient pre-Time Solar Empire artifact, but there's a massive disconnect between that era and history in Time. This is why all the text associated with the Wall is in-Time speculation, and often contradictory speculation. If the Gods War miniature is valid, then Kyger Litor looks nothing like the Mistress Race troll depicted on the Gods Wall.

Their sense of authority. Controlling the opportunity of reproduction is another example of their power.

Fear: his boss would at best hurt him very badly, and at worst...

Polite suggestion: it may be worth initiating a new thread on horses, as anyone not looking at this thread will only find it if they use the search function.

Totally irrelevant to Glorantha, but having read Charles Stross' Equoid and his most recent novel The Nightmare Stacks I can no longer think of unicorns (or Elves, the Tolkien version, not Gloranthan) in the same way.

Sadly, Making Gods in King of Sartar does not support your position. Monrogh claimed to have found Yelmalio but the temples in Saird, Prax and elsewhere don't seem to have forgotten Yelmalio. Similarly Jonstown Compendium #7517 relates only to the cult in Sartar, not elsewhere, even though it claims the cult was exported to Tarsh. I've yet to see any evidence of Monrogh awakening any temple except Vanntar or any especial magical insight. Simply going by History of Dragon Pass in the Second Age. I suspect you are reading things into my account which aren't there: it's an account of the history of the Sun Dome Temples, not Orlanthland. I did start writing a text box of the history of Saird, but it became almost as large as the parent article. Doubtless, and that's noted already. However, I doubt that regiments from the same temple would fight each other, and possibly regiments from different temples would 'neutralise' each other rather than fight. This might be detailed in the contract of service. There are limits to what a short article can present. However, the Sun Dome Temples aren't 'monolithical' - note for example the very different governance and society of Sun County in Prax and Vanntar. As for political - I suspect you are reading things in that aren't there. I'd say the temples are pragmatic: they fight for coin to support their temples and communities, but will also defend their temples and communities, swapping allegiance when it becomes expedient to do so.

Be advised, before performing a heroquest, that there have been significant changes in canon since the latter two were published, and lesser changes since Gods of Glorantha was published. Virtually all Mongoose material is highly suspect.

I can see that I have a bit of rework to do. Will hopefully publish an updated version over the weekend (the entire article hasn't appeared here).

I was in a bit of a rush - the 'article' represents six months 'work' - in that I was constructing it in my free time, which is still limited. The version that was sourced has not yet been updated with new information or insights. Reference to: In the Second Age, the cult fought dwarves everywhere, and spearheaded armies invading the mountain regions (reliving the enmity between Yelm and Orlanth). At the end of the Second Age, when all the lowlands united against the Empire of the Wyrms Friends, Yelmalio again led the fight. Yes, I know the reference to the EWF is now wrong, in part, but the spearheading armies were fighting the proto-EWF. The cult is mercenary - if his gold was good...

True, in part, but I believe this highlights the problems of trying to analyse a pre-Time artifact in Time. Perhaps, but the presence of what is obviously Kyger Litor, or as least a Mistress Race troll, undermines this as in the Golden Age the trolls should have been happily at peace in Wonderhome. Just as they were ignorant of the Sun, the Sun should have been ignorant of them. This suggests to me that the Gods Wall is in some way 'anachronistic' in that it doesn't just represent a 'status quo' but 'future' deities as well.

That would be him claiming to have refounded the Sun Dome Temples, when he only refounded one. Interesting, but Nysalor preceded the revelation of Daysenerus, if not the worship of the deity. Based on GRoY, I'd relate it to the appearance of Lightfore preceding the first Dawn. Regarding Yelmalio, I'd take the name as North Theyalan - with a mixture of North Pelorian and Theyalan components, as befits a name that probably first appeared in Saird, with its heavily syncretic culture.

The GRoY text is all ultimately suspect as it is a construct in the attempt to recreate the pre-Time culture. Given the low number of survivors at the Dawn, the actual memory of God Time events is tenuous. As the Gods Wall is a major surviving artifact, it was used in that reconstruction, but the accuracy of the reconstruction, as the debates illustrate, is subject to doubt. The use of iconography to identify many gods is suspect, because in many cases the modern iconography was derived from the Gods Wall, without any absolute certainty. It's circular logic. And that's an example of the doubtful use of iconography to derive mythological attributes, and vice versa. It simply isn't possible to fix the Gods Wall to any specific period; it isn't even certain as to which god is represented as the emperor, especially as it apparently shows Yelm as a pile of dust.

I suspect that many of the identifications on the Gods Wall are suspect, as is its age. All that is really known is that it is from the God Time, before Time. I would also note that WF#15 (page 77) states that Hastatus is a title of Avivorus. As Avivorus was active before Time, the sequence of events is debatable. The Dara Happan chronology is suspect because of its use of its 'perfect' 'poetic' numbers, such as 100,000. As for hoplite phalanx warfare, that 'dates' to Daxdarius.

Dawn Age: Antirius - not certain, but based on architecture GtG; Avivorus who seems to be an avatar of Antirius becomes Hastatus, the Spear God TGRoY. Dawn Age: Daysenerus WF#15, GS email previous copied here. Second Age: Tharkantus/Yelmalio P:GtA etc. Third Age: Yelmalio CoP, WF#15 etc. Analysis of names: Daysenerus: No idea. us is a Dara Happan suffix. Tharkantus: us is a Dara Happan masculine suffix. Rest of the name? No idea, but there's a slight resemblance to Kargzant. Yelmalio: Y(u) seems to be a Dara Happan word meaning 'god'; elmal seems to be a Theyalan word meaning sun/gold; io - no reference but seems to be a diminutive: see P:GtA meaning Little Sun.

I agree, though the WF sidebar does not mention horses.

I don't have a graphic, but here is an annotated version, with sources and assumptions noted. There are a few things I can't source but found somewhere marked with ???. History of Dragon Pass in the Second Age is on Glorantha.com and assumed to be canonical. The temple-fortress to Manimat and Antirius at Haranshold originally built in the First Age also boasts several gold domes. GtG The city of Kesium is now best known for its golden-domed temple to Antirius, built by the Bright Eagle Lords of Rinliddi in the Dawn Age of Peloria. GtG The first temple complex in the style of the later Sun Dome Temples was built by Kestingatha of Kesium, one of the Bright Eagle Lords. His temple of Antirius, a golden dome set atop a square base, was completed sometime between 145 and 155. TGRoY, HotHP Mahzanelm, an Emperor of the Khordavu Dynasty, conquered Rinliddi and Vanch around 345-350. The Dara Happans sought to ensure that the barbarian lands could be kept under their control. The Emperor commissioned the construction of a grand structure that would be both temple and a military enclave for his troops. This temple was in the form of a dome within a walled compound entered via a stepped walkway. HotHP One of the settlements the Emperor destroyed during his southern campaign was Lolon, inhabited since the Dawn. This was the home of the Tunoraling hunter-gatherers who worshipped Heliacal the Sun and his wife Negalla the Green Woman. GtG After the First Theyalan War (366-368), more of the Dara Happan-style Sun Dome Temples were built – one was even built atop the ruins of Urar Baar (a troll trading place at the confluence of the Oslir and the Black Eel rivers). These were similar to the earlier temple built by Kestingatha, being set on a square base, which was now consecrated to Hastatus, the spear god. In all, five Sun Dome Temples served as Dara Happan military anchors to keep the rebellious Theyalans under the control of the High Council. HotHP It was at the Battle of Day and Night in 379 that the constructed god Nysalor revealed Daysenerus - an aspect of Antirius who brings Antirius’ Justice to the barbarians - to be the deity of the Sun Dome Temples. Daysenerus’ first deed when invoked was to crush the army of Kyger Litor and his first new temple was built upon the site of that victory. WF#15 During the years that followed, new Sun Dome Temples dedicated to Daysenerus were built throughout the lands occupied by the Bright Empire. HotHP The Daysenerus cult was given good lands confiscated from rebellious Heortlings after the Theyalan Wars. The military might of these enclaves supported the rule of the Bright Empire. However, their association with Nysalor proved to be their downfall. When Arkat raised the Heortlings in their final successful rebellion, vengeful Orlanthi and their troll allies destroyed every Sun Dome Temple they encountered and eradicated the name Daysenerus from Peloria. HotHP According to Monrogh of Sartar, a dubious source, Sereventh in Sylila was the only temple to Daysenerus to survive the destruction of the Bright Empire. P:GtA Other sources claim it was used by Ordanestyu in his Cold Light Fires Uprising and to revive the culture of Dara Happa after the fall of the Bright Empire. ??? [I seem to have derived this from the mention of Ordanestyu's Torch HotHP.] During the ensuing period of troll and Heortling domination of southern Peloria, the other Sun Dome Temples were relit by the prophet Severinalus the Rekindler. Severinalus named the god Tharkantus, the Empty Saving Hearth, prepared for the darkness to come. He settled many temples, for many places prepared once again for the time that the fires all went out. P:GtA Tharkartus was later recognized to be the same entity as the Elvish Sun god, Halamalao, and in many places the two races shared worship for centuries. History of Dragon Pass in the Second Age In 562 a Sun Dome Temple was founded in Holay. TrollPak Trolls resisted the construction but met with disaster when a trollkin lieutenant betrayed the attack because the White Women among the Sun Domers had treated him kindly. ??? Circa 640 another was established at Domanand (modern Mirin’s Cross) in Saird at the edge of Orlanthland, built as a stronghold against the dragons and their followers. It boasted unique enclosed domes with anti-dragon runes upon their surface, and despite its Solar nature provided a center of resistance for the Orlanthi Traditionalists against the Draconic Orlanthi to the south for a long time. History of Dragon Pass in the Second Age The city of Lolon was also rebuilt. GtG Initially, the cult of Yelmalio fiercely resisted the rise of the Kingdom of Orlanthland from their city of Domanand and spearheaded armies invading the upland regions. CoP, History of Dragon Pass in the Second Age Saird became a battleground between Domanand and Orlanthland, which was transforming into the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. But by 750 the EWF conquered Saird; the gold domes of Domanand were shattered - their ruins are still apparent in the modern city. The Lament of Domeland, composed by several poets who survived the catastrophe, recalls the fall of the city. History of Dragon Pass in the Second Age The EWF revealed the Draconic Sun to the survivors. Assumption The Sun Dome Temples subsequently became a major military arm of the empire with their soldier-cultists used as mercenaries. Many new temples to Yelmalio were established on the frontiers of the EWF in Fronela, Ralios, and near Pent and in its core lands in Dragon Pass. P:GtA Another was built at Hesterneo in Esrolia, later destroyed by Queen Orenda. E:tLoTTG Dara Happa was occupied by the EWF in 850 after its Emperor was killed by elite members of the Golden Dragon Society. History of Dragon Pass in the Second Age In 877 the first Arrowsmith king of the city of Pavis in Prax requested aid from the Sun Dome Temple in Dragon Pass against the trolls and giants. The mercenaries were granted lands to the south of the city. A new Sun Dome Temple was built on the edge of the Wastelands. P:GtA Karvanyar slew the imperial Golden Dragon in 910, leading a rebellion that drove the EWF from Dara Happa within seven years. TFS The same year Alakoring Dragonbreaker flew into Aggar. He defeated Sun Dome armies and other EWF forces. History of Dragon Pass in the Second Age Between the years 910-925, after freeing itself from EWF control Dara Happan armies marched south. In the Three Armies Battle in 920 the armies of Alakoring Dragonbreaker and a Carmanian adventurer fought the EWF. Alakoring fought Drang the Diamond Storm Dragon and killed it. History of Dragon Pass in the Second Age Over the next fifteen years, Alakoring led the people of Saird, including the freed Sun Dome Temples, in rebellion. The soldier-cult purged itself of all draconic influence. Assumption Dara Happa retook all of its lands from the EWF and expanded southwards. A great army marched through Sylila to the Battle of Zelfield where the dragons were defeated. TFS The EWF counterattacked, reaching as far north as Alkoth in 947 but was unable to regain control of the north. History of Dragon Pass in the Second Age In 960, on the death of Sarenesh, (an Emperor of Dara Happa of the Karvanyar Dynasty) to prevent war between his three sons, the priests enacted the Great Division of the World. The High Priest of Dayzatar awarded Dayzatar’s portion, Saird, to Verenmars. King Verenemars rallied all Saird against the dragons. He began great sacrifices to strengthen Jajagappa and raised the Jajalarings dog peoples against the EWF. Many Dara Happan colonists followed in the wake of Verenmars’ heroic wars against the EWF. Verenmars and his heirs ruled the Kingdom of Saird until 1120. TFS, History of Dragon Pass in the Second Age The Saird Sun Dome Temples eagerly supported Verenmars and his kingdom and survived the fall of the EWF in 1042 when the leaders of Empire of the Wyrms Friends were exterminated overnight. P:GtA In 1082, the hero Balazar introduced the cult of Yelmalio to the Votanki to the east. He met and wed a local hunting nymph and they had three sons. Griffin Mountain The Sun Domes of Saird contributed much of the manpower of the Invincible Golden Horde. The destruction and devouring of those armies in the Dragonkill of 1120 severely wounded the Temples for generations, and extinguished Verenmars’ dynasty. After the Dragonkill, the weakened Sairdite culture was mostly absorbed by the neighboring Orlanthi. Assumption Far to the southeast, the now isolated temple in Prax erected the Great Ballista to protect their rebuilt temple complex from draconic retribution. MOB website Jannisor’s Rebellion (1271-1275) against the rising Lunar Empire included the Sun Dome Temples of Saird, allied with the Sable Tribes, and the many Orlanthi tribes surrounding Saird. Some of the Sun Dome Temples were also part of the Kynnelfing Alliance that resisted but ultimately was defeated by the Conquering Daughter in 1347. P:GtA The queen of Filichet was acclaimed as Queen of Holay, as a Lunar tributary ruler. GtG Invasions by savage barbarians from Pent led by Sheng Seleris disrupted the Lunar Empire from 1375 to 1460. Much of the south was lost to the empire during this time as it struggled to survive. The Sun Dome temples endured this period, hiring out as mercenaries. Assumption Holay became a battleground between Tarsh and Sylila, and was finally reduced to Lunar dependency in 1458. Saird was regained around 1480 though Lunar rule in the Provinces was not secure until 1545, when the Provincial Government was formed. GtG The Sun Dome Temples fought on all sides of these wars during Third and Fourth Wanes (1355-1462), but have been mostly allied with the Lunar Provincial Government since the Sixth Wane (1517 onwards). P:GtA

As it was taken from The Guide to Glorantha, the ultimate resource on all things Gloranthan, I must assume you haven't read that resource.

I have a text description, but not a graphic one.

Not exactly. Aeolism is a henotheist variation of Malkionism, which holds that the Orlanthi gods are emanations of the Invisible God. They worship the Invisible God as the Supreme Creator, but heartily participate in Orlanthi rites as well.

Karvanyar slew the imperial Golden Dragon in 910, leading a rebellion that drove the EWF from Dara Happa within seven years. The same year Alakoring Dragonbreaker flew into Aggar. He defeated Sun Dome armies and other EWF forces. Between the years 910-925, after freeing itself from EWF control Dara Happan armies marched south. In the Three Armies Battle in 920 the armies of Alakoring Dragonbreaker and a Carmanian adventurer fought the EWF. Alakoring fought Drang the Diamond Storm Dragon and killed it. Over the next fifteen years, Alakoring led the people of Saird, including the freed Sun Dome Temples, in rebellion. The soldier-cult purged itself of all draconic influence. Dara Happa retook all of its lands from the EWF and expanded southwards. A great army marched through Sylila to the Battle of Zelfield where the dragons were defeated. The EWF counterattacked, reaching as far north as Alkoth in 947 but was unable to regain control of the north. In 960, on the death of Sarenesh, (an Emperor of Dara Happa of the Karvanyar Dynasty) to prevent war between his three sons, the priests enacted the Great Division of the World. The High Priest of Dayzatar awarded Dayzatar’s portion, Saird, to Verenmars. King Verenemars rallied all Saird against the dragons. He began great sacrifices to strengthen Jajagappa and raised the Jajalarings dog peoples against the EWF. Many Dara Happan colonists followed in the wake of Verenmars’ heroic wars against the EWF. Verenmars and his heirs ruled the Kingdom of Saird until 1120. The Saird Sun Dome Temples eagerly supported Verenmars and his kingdom and survived the fall of the EWF in 1042 when the leaders of Empire of the Wyrms Friends were exterminated overnight. In 1082, the hero Balazar introduced the cult of Yelmalio to the Votanki to the east. He met and wed a local hunting nymph and they had three sons. The Sun Domes of Saird contributed much of the manpower of the Invincible Golden Horde. The destruction and devouring of those armies in the Dragonkill of 1120 severely wounded the Temples for generations, and extinguished Verenmars’ dynasty. After the Dragonkill, the weakened Sairdite culture was mostly absorbed by the neighboring Orlanthi. Far to the southeast, the now isolated temple in Prax erected the Great Ballista to protect their rebuilt temple complex from draconic retribution. Jannisor’s Rebellion (1271-1275) against the rising Lunar Empire included the Sun Dome Temples of Saird, allied with the Sable Tribes, and the many Orlanthi tribes surrounding Saird. Some of the Sun Dome Temples were also part of the Kynnelfing Alliance that resisted but ultimately was defeated by the Conquering Daughter in 1347. The queen of Filichet was acclaimed as Queen of Holay, as a Lunar tributary ruler. Invasions by savage barbarians from Pent led by Sheng Seleris disrupted the Lunar Empire from 1375 to 1460. Much of the south was lost to the empire during this time as it struggled to survive. The Sun Dome temples endured this period, hiring out as mercenaries. Holay became a battleground between Tarsh and Sylila, and was finally reduced to Lunar dependency in 1458. Saird was regained around 1480 though Lunar rule in the Provinces was not secure until 1545, when the Provincial Government was formed. The Sun Dome Temples fought on all sides of these wars during Third and Fourth Wanes (1355-1462), but have been mostly allied with the Lunar Provincial Government since the Sixth Wane (1517 onwards).

RuneQuest: The Next Generation. 8-)

Yes, Yelm the Rider flies. This is why I queried the association with Yelm with horses. I'd suggest it points to Elmal being a relatively minor cult in its host culture, whilst Yelm is a major cult in its host culture. There are no Sun Dome Temples in Maniria. Monrogh claims to have invented Yelmalio, or at least the scribe who wrote 'Making Gods' in King of Sartar claimed he did. This false claim is repeated in Jonstown Compendium #7517, which claims Monrogh's cult was exported to Tarsh, but the newest Sun Dome there, Ever-New-Glory was founded after the Lunar conquest of Saird, probably well before Monrogh had his visions. I see no sign of any significant reform in Sun County. Yelmalio was not forgotten, north or east of Sartar. I suspect that Monrogh had exposure to something, probably hazia. It should be noted that Vanntar has a very different governance to Sun County: in Vanntar the roles of religious and secular leader are combined; in Sun County they are not. Vanntar is supported by helots (suspiciously named for the Dara Happan god of slaves); Sun County adheres to the older model of farmer-citizen-soldiers. These very distinct differences point to a distinct divergence, not convergence.