M Helsdon

2 hours ago, pachristian said:

I will respectfully submit that based on the Guide, only a portion of the land true desert; most of it is scrubland

And not steppe. There's a major difference between chaparral and grassland: far lower biomass in the former than the latter.

2 hours ago, pachristian said:

Hmm - so I partially agree with your point, but still believe that the Beast-Nomads of Prax would have a growing population. 

But a very low upper limit, compared with the Eurasian Steppe or Pent: very much more territory required to feed relatively small herds, and small herds can only support low numbers of nomads, even though Praxian Beasts mostly eat different things. This is why the Animal Nomads tend to move in clans, not tribes en masse because except in a few areas the land cannot support a concentration of numbers.

The Animal Nomads are going to have hard limits to their maximum population.

I'll post this here, because it is relevant, unless Praxian animals have different dietary intake to their terrestrial equivalents (some are extrapolated because the equivalents are extinct, or have never existed, and there are numerous sources given different values for what a horse eats).

# Fresh meat.        

The Rhino Tribe will be in trouble, but seem to be heading for extinction in Prax as their numbers are so small. This table suggests why.

1 hour ago, pachristian said:

Nomadic Pastoralism is a very successful survival strategy: The nomads of the Eurasian steppes exploded outward in raids/wars/invasions against Europe and China on a regular basis: Scythians, Sarmations, Avars, Goths, Turks, Bulgars, Khazars, Magyars, and, of course, Mongols (and I left out a few).

True, but: true for much of Pent, not the Wastelands east of Prax. These are the dead lands of the dead god Genert, with deadly eternal storms, and inhabited only by Chaos creatures until Waha led his people beyond the Vultures Country after his defeat by Pavis and the Faceless Statue.

The Wastes aren't comparable to most of the Eurasian Steppe, but more to the desert lands to the south, the Tarim Basin and Gobi.

32 minutes ago, David Scott said:

That's exactly what Im looking at. I've done the growth for each tribe though as they have different final populations. I want to know what the populations were at certain points in Gloranthan history. Here's the major tribes growth rates i'm currently using

I fear it would complicate things, but population growth is rarely fixed, though the harsh conditions of Prax and the Wastelands will limit population growth and probably set a fixed upper limit?

Other areas, based on the information and maps in the Guide seem to have experienced a massive population explosion after the Dawn. In Prax there was significant warfare between the different groups for the best remaining spots on the plains from the beginning? Losers were then forced across the River of Cradles into Vulture’s Country, where they survived, expanded, and came back with a vengeance to raid, harass and eventually push out their foes, in an almost endless cycle until Sheng Seleris and then the Lunars intervened?

Would joining the World Council of Friends in the First Age have interrupted this cycle, permitting additional growth? The Battle of Necklace Horse conversely would have caused a population crash, but the eventual defeat and expulsion of the Pure Horse People would have released more grazing and a boom - until the Pol-Joni arrived in 1420?

[Further to the earlier thread about Ernalda houses.]

The Runes important to a culture are often reflected in its gateways.
From left to right:

• An Earth Rune gate. A lintel can support less weight than an arch; upper levels are of lighter stone, brick or a wooden palisade. This design is common in Orlanthi lands.
• A Luck Rune. The eastern gate of Runegate is in this form. The slanted uprights can support a little more weight than an ordinary lintel but this form is little used, because Luck can be good, or bad.
• A Solar arch incorporating a Sky Rune. An arch distributes weight better than a lintel.
• A Lunar arch incorporating a Moon Rune. This functions as an arch but requires more skill to build. This design is not entirely practical as a defensive gateway but is commonly found in major Lunar temples.
   

3 hours ago, rust said:

Yes, but the mention of stirrups in the Glorantha Wiki implies the existence of saddles, because stirrups without any kind of saddle would make precious little sense.

Saddles were used, in the terrestrial world, by light and heavy cavalry, for centuries before stirrups were introduced from the steppes. The same applies for Glorantha, I suspect. As a Late Iron Age introduction, stirrups don't really mesh with Glorantha. Roman and Persian cataphracti used heavy lances and impact charges long before the stirrup, relying upon horned saddles to keep the rider in their seat. [Whilst he was re-enacting an earlier period, a Roman cavalry re-enactor I chatted with once, told me that he found riding in a four-horned saddle without stirrups easy, once he got used to it, and there wasn't a risk of being caught up in the stirrups if he fell off in mock combat.]

If you examine the illustrations, all canonical, in The Guide to Glorantha, you will find many saddles being used by human riders, but perhaps only one or two of stirrups, and those may have got through the editorial filter.

23 minutes ago, rust said:

See here under "Riding":

http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Horse

There's only one reference in the wiki to 'saddle':

http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Search?search=saddle&fulltext=Search

However, saddles aren't contentious - there are many canonical illustrations of saddles in the Guide.

17 minutes ago, David Scott said:

The Glorantha Wiki is a well maintained and useful source. However it's not official and so can't be considered to be a "canon" source. It's references are however pretty good and I use it regularly. It would be more helpful to say there are references on the Glorantha Wiki that cite the use of saddles and stirrups and point to them. I've just been over there to look and am not sure which pages you are referring to. Could you please link to them, it would be helpful to others so we can read the references.

http://glorantha.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Search?search=stirrups&fulltext=Search

From this the primary source is The Fortunate Succession: pages 12, 23 and 85.

Page 12: 'always without stirrups'.

Page 23: 'He stood up in his stirrups'.

Page 85: 'it was certainly NOT the introduction of stirrups, which came much later'.

So one reference, which may or may not be accurate.

And 'The History of the Dara Happan Army', which may no longer be fully canonical.

I've just posted a question to Jeff on the Gods War Q&A update about stirrups, but the questioning period may have ended.

4 hours ago, Zit said:

Since Glorantha is a bronze age world, what about saddles? Are there any? This question probably alredy arose in another thread, but I can't remember where.

The earliest saddles were simple fringed cloths or pads held on with a girth or surcingle that included breast straps and cruppers. Later a rudimentary frame, with two parallel leather cushions, a girth attached to them, a pommel and cantle was developed. The solid saddle tree raises the rider above the horse’s back, and distributed their weight on either side of the mount’s spine.

The Western saddle has a high cantle and pommels which act as high guard clamps that curve across the top of the rider’s thighs and fasten to the saddle, enabling the rider to stay properly seated, especially during violent combat. It consists of a wooden tree supporting more weight from a rider with armor and weapons, padded with wool or horsehair and covered in leather or cloth.

Praxian saddles (especially those of bison and high llama riders) also feature a raised cantle and pommels to hold the rider firmly in the seat.

Stirrups are not widely known or used. The Pentans have adopted them as they permit a horse archer to ‘stand’ when shooting, absorbing the motion of the horse and enhancing the accuracy of the archer. In response, some Lunar cavalry units have recently adopted their use.

[Trying to determine the Logistics of Gloranthan cavalry based as closely as possible on terrestrial equivalents. The intake of horses in various sources vary enormously, so I've taken what seems to be an 'average'.]

The requirements of different mounts varies.

Horses require more water, fodder and care than their riders. A single horse eats between 12-14 lbs. of hard fodder and 14-16 lbs. of green or dry fodder per day, and this varies with temperature and exercise. Horses also need 8-20 gallons of water per day. Foraging for fodder is not always practical because sudden changes in diet can bring on colic or founder (inflammation of the hoof) which can render the horse incapacitated for weeks. This means that sufficient water, feed, and tack must be transported.

Praxian riding animals are generally tougher and more resilient to changes in diet and have lower water requirements, but most have specific dietary requirements.

Most can be allowed to graze for much of their food, but the time this takes reduces the vailability of them as riding animals.

# Fresh meat.

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

Ducks do not ride. Not ostriches, not donkeys, not ponies.

Can't say I'm surprised.

Now someone will suggest duck war carts. 9-)

5 hours ago, TRose said:

 One thing I noticed in this discussion is that Ducks have no riding animals or even any domesticated ones.

Ducks probably use donkeys as riding animals, and for cavalry, probably ponies or one of the smaller Praxian beasts.

Attempting to assess the logistics requirements of different riding animals, real world animals require the following (the numbers for horses varies wildly). The High Llama numbers are fudged as this animal is extinct in our world.

I suspect that the Praxian equivalents are going to deviate from this - rhino in our world eat a very great deal, for example, but they only have to drink (a lot) every five days or so.

3 hours ago, Iskallor said:

I've seen and ridden donkeys (I luuurve them) many places. We grew up with them everywhere.

Great for supply trains; not so great if ridden into combat.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

I think you've misunderstood (and I wasn't clear enough) about what I was trying to say about these two. They  both have to be symbiotic in the way they work, for they are intelligent and have an intelligent rider. For the purpose of a war-game it has to be subsumed into one or they'd argue:-) My real world example would be those dogs who are out with their owners tugging their owners along - who is walking who?

Regarding the Demon Horses, the Sartar Companion states the demons control the riders, whilst the Guide states the demons are subject only to the will of Ethilrist. Their relationship to their rider is the opposite of a cavalryman riding a trained war horse, which is trained to fight for the rider. The riders of demon horses, it seems, are trained to fight for their mount.

Unicorns and other intelligent mounts work in partnership with their riders in a mutually beneficial way.

I suspect a demon horse doesn't particularly care about their rider's wellbeing save for the inconvenience if they get killed.

They are demons, and bound only by their bond with Ethilrist.

3 hours ago, Iskallor said:

I have donkeys in my Glorantha. Used by worshippers of Lodril amongst others.

As there are mules in Glorantha, there must be donkeys. However, although the Sumerians in our world used a related animal to pull their chariots (more: slow box carts), donkeys aren't very useful as riding animals. I don't doubt they are used as beasts of burden, though mules are better caravan animals being stronger and more resilient.

Riding Animals

Several species of riding animals are present in central Genertela.

Some are only ridden by particular tribes, whilst others, such as sables and horses are common riding animals. A rhino or bison born under the Covenant can be ridden by anyone with sufficient riding skill (and bravery).

Use of Praxian beasts as mounts by non-Praxians is fairly common in Dragon Pass.

Some mounts can be trained to carry their owner into a conflict, but do not fight themselves. Cavalry mounts are trained to stay calm in battle and carry their rider where they want to go amidst the noise and hubbub of a battle. They are not trained to fight in battle and because of this, they cost less to train.

War mounts are trained to respond absolutely to the demands of the rider and ignore outside influences. Some can be trained to enter a battle and fight for their rider, using their natural weapons: kicking, trampling, biting, goring. This requires expensive training so that the mount can coordinate its attacks with its rider.

The Praxians share a powerful relationship between rider and mount, and a member of a Praxian tribe can ride any herd beast with ease, in peace and war, for they ride almost before they can walk. They will only ride another animal if they have no choice but the Animal Nomads would never touch a horse, not even to eat it.

Khans are limited to only riding their tribal herd beast. This includes all Khans as a social, not cult prohibition – so Wind Khans, Storm Khans, and Light Khans are all restricted to their tribal animal. Pol-Joni Waha Khans ride horses, even though they are not within the Covenant, but do not eat their horses as they herd cattle.

Augner: an extinct species of giant flightless bird.

Bison: heavy and slow animals, which eat green, moist grasses. Its thick skin gives it some protection and its basic attack is the charge.

Bolo Lizard: large vegetarian dinosaur-like creatures which run on their two hind legs, bearing a small rider.

Demi-Bird: flightless carnivorous birds, they are feathered, bipedal, beaked, and lay eggs, but their bones are solid and they have vestigial arms, not wings.

Demon Horse: also called Black Horses, they have glowing eyes, snort smoke and have a taste for meat and particularly human flesh.

High Llama: of great height, they give their riders an edge in combat by allowing them to strike down at opponents. They are also noted as being the fastest mounts in all of Prax. High llamas eat leaves from bushes and scrub.

Horse: numerous different breeds, varying in size, strength and stamina. Horses graze on good-quality forage from hay or pasture.

Impala: Small deer ridden by small riders, impala eat brown, dry grasses.

Mule: the offspring of a male donkey and a female horse. These beasts can be claimed to be not-horses among horse-haters, and as horse-kin among horse-lovers.

Ostrich: large flightless birds capable of carrying a small rider. They mainly feed on seeds, shrubs, grass, fruit and flowers.

Rhino: relatively slow moving but strong.

Sable: large antelopes also known as ‘Lunar Deer’ for the shape of their horns. They eat almost any vegetation.

Tusker: fierce and ill-tempered giant boar. They are highly versatile omnivores.

Unicorn: white horse-like creatures with a long spiral horn. All unicorns are male. They eat wildflowers, fruit and tree leaves.

Zebra: horse-like but bearing stripes. Zebras feed almost entirely on grasses, but may occasionally eat shrubs, herbs, twigs, leaves and bark.

The different diets of riding animals means that each have a distinct habitat and requirements. Maintaining a regiment of cavalry of any species requires significant logistical support. Without proper food, a cavalry regiment will rapidly lose effectiveness.

Demon Horses and Unicorns (and other riding animals awakened or inhabited by a spirit) are intelligent. However, the Demon Horses command and control their riders, whilst Unicorns and others tend to have a symbiotic relationship with their rider.

A few other more obscure riding animals may be encountered, but rarely in sufficient numbers to mount an entire regiment. For example, three horned darvan (triceratops), one of the ‘thunder beasts’ can be tamed and ridden, though supplying such a beast with sufficient food is challenging.

4 hours ago, TRose said:

 Think I read that the Empire of Wyrm Friends used Dinosaurs in combat and there was an Old adventure where some Dragon newts where delivering a triceratops to a wild tribe .

I'm mostly looking at human cultures, but yes, perhaps the triceratops might be mentioned. I believe there are a very few references to humans using them.

18 hours ago, Freddie said:

["Roger Irrelevant" warning]

Mea cupla.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

I'd say the Auger clan in Esrolia is rare (as it says) too. They clearly exist but are very rare, and so not worth worrying about. The ones on the moon are inaccessible to mortals, and I'd say resurrected on the otherworld of the Moon still means you are dead.

All very true. I'll keep with my earlier assessment. Thank you.

For the same reason I'm ignoring dinosaur mounts because they aren't something you'll find for sale at a market, and if they were to appear in an army, they are probably equivalent to a cavalry regiment. If horse units can be repelled by camels in the real world, the effect of a large dinosaur ought to be even more dramatic. Dinosaurs appear in the Dragon Pass boardgame (as individuals? herds?) but they aren't recorded anywhere yet as being of military use by either the Lunars or the Sartar Free Army.

3 hours ago, TRose said:

 perhaps  Augners are extinct , but there a minor Heroquest that allows  people to get one.

They don't seem to be extant, save on the Red Moon...

23 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

I think the previous depictions and write ups (such as the one in the companion) are no longer canon.

Based on other posts on this forum, I'd disagree...

Artistic representations will always vary, but Gloranthan unicorns aren't just horses with horns on their foreheads, but sentient magical beings.

3 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

So Gloranthan Unicorns are horned horses, and not the actual legendary beast?

Gloranthan unicorns are magical beasts - the longest write-up being in the old RuneQuest Companion.

24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Assuming the Esrolia book is canon, then they have a broader range.

I suspect they are extinct, save on the Red Moon. But...

[I was aware of the reference, but decided that as it wasn't supported by any recent publication it was probably dead. The Esrolia book isn't in this list: http://www.glorantha.com/canon-and-ygwvtheres-been-a-few-questions-about-what-is-canon-are-these-maps-going-to-get-gregged/ ]

41 minutes ago, Roko Joko said:

If you're trying to list them all

Just the major ones in central Genertela, thanks. Flying creatures are in another list.

41 minutes ago, Roko Joko said:

. rinliddi bird mounts

I don't believe these are canonical? Augners are now found only on the Red Moon.

To bring a contentious topic over from the Google forum:

Cavalry dates back to the Dawn, but only became an effective and often decisive military force when suitable saddles were made.

The earliest saddles were simple fringed cloths or pads held on with a girth or surcingle that included breast straps and cruppers. Later a rudimentary frame, with two parallel leather cushions, a girth attached to them, a pommel and cantle was developed. The solid saddle tree raises the rider above the horse’s back, and distributed their weight on either side of the mount’s spine.

The Western saddle has a high cantle and pommels which act as high guard clamps that curve across the top of the rider’s thighs and fasten to the saddle, enabling the rider to stay properly seated, especially during violent combat. It consists of a wooden tree supporting more weight from a rider with armor and weapons, padded with wool or horsehair and covered in leather or cloth.

Praxian saddles (especially those of bison and high llama riders) also feature a raised cantle and pommels to hold the rider firmly in the seat.

Stirrups are not widely known or used. The Pentans have adopted them as they permit a horse archer to ‘stand’ when shooting, absorbing the motion of the horse and enhancing the accuracy of the archer. In response, some Lunar cavalry units have also adopted their use.

[I am assuming that the older material relating to stirrups coming from the West relatively early is no longer canonical, and that the illustrations in AH's Glorantha boxed set are similarly non-canonical. Glancing through the Guide finds very few examples of stirrups (Dragonewts, and Hwarin Dalthippa), which tends to support the Bronze Age/Early Iron Age 'feel'.]

Several species of riding animals are present in central Genertela.

Some are only ridden by particular tribes, whilst others, such as sables and horses are common riding animals. A rhino or bison born under the Covenant can be ridden by anyone with sufficient riding skill (and bravery).

Some mounts can be trained to carry their owner into a conflict, but do not fight themselves. Cavalry mounts are trained to stay calm in battle and carry their rider where they want to go amidst the noise and hubbub of a battle. They are not trained to fight in battle and because of this, they cost less to train.

War mounts are trained to respond absolutely to the demands of the rider and ignore outside influences. Some can be trained to enter a battle and fight for their rider, using their natural weapons: kicking, trampling, biting, goring. This requires expensive training so that the mount can coordinate its attacks with its rider.

The Praxians share a powerful relationship between rider and mount, and a member of a Praxian tribe can ride any herd beast with ease, in peace and war, for they ride almost before they can walk. They will only ride another animal if they have no choice but the Animal Nomads would never touch a horse, not even to eat it.

Khans are limited to only riding their tribal herd beast. This includes all Khans as a social, not cult prohibition – so Wind Khans, Storm Khans, and Light Khans are all restricted to their tribal animal. Pol-Joni Waha Khans ride horses, even though they are not within the Covenant, but do not eat their horses as they herd cattle.

Demon Horses and Unicorns (and other riding animals awakened or inhabited by a spirit) are intelligent. However, the Demon Horses command and control their riders, whilst Unicorns and others tend to have a symbiotic relationship with their rider.