M Helsdon

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

My question here would be why?  Was Esrolia mythically different from Dragon Pass in that respect?  There were plenty of demons that came to Nochet and no reason those did not include hollri or the like.

I suspect because: It's geographically different: not uplands and closer to the edge of the event. There's a major difference in elevation, and, as in the rest of the year, sea temperatures are going to moderate temperatures. The currents haven't been affected, and a warm sea will warm the nearby land.

30 minutes ago, MOB said:

Upstream in the mountains, the headwaters are blocked by ice and dam up at the edge of the Windstop. The winter melt still happens beyond the Windstop's boundary so there is a massive flood event down the River of Cradles when the Great Winter ends. 

I imagine that such ice dams are going to happen to almost every river under the effect of the Windstop, so there's going to be flooding for some distance down river, until the waters become sufficiently spread out on flood plains (and, given the catastrophic flow, above the normal flood plain)?

For the Zola Fel, Old Pavis and its walls are going to have an impact, diverting some water before it bursts through the Rubble? New Pavis might be virtually unscathed, though Riverside may get wet... That west wall might have its foundations damaged. Further downstream, the New Bog is going to temporarily become a lake, and possibly the North and South Bogs too. Hmm, the waters may wash out things hidden for a very long time...?

In Sartar, the Upland Marsh will take most of the excess, expanding dramatically, and Delecti's islands may become literally swamped. Things will get decidedly wet at Duck Point...?

28 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I'm particularly interested in what this means for the residents trying to survive.  Are there water sources?  Where/how do they find food?  What can Lunar magics and glamours do to ameliorate the effects.  Do folk seek shelter with the trolls or become troll food?

 

People are going to live off their supplies in their root cellars and then from their clan's storage pits, and then by raiding their neighbours. There are going to be dead things in the snow: deer and other animals, and people... Maybe they risk eating the frozen meat, animal, hopefully... The Lunar garrisons are going to sit on their supplies, but they are going to suffer - few supply caravans getting through - and may decide to plunder the natives. The Telmori and ghouls will be raiding in Sartar. The Trolls may attempt to reinstate the Shadow Tribute.

It's a major population dieback event. I suspect entire clans perish and tribes fragment.

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

1) The rivers of Dragon Pass.  No winds, no clouds, no rain.  And freezing air.  That suggests that most rivers in Dragon Pass dry up and/or freeze over except those protected by the Moon (i.e. the Oslir and the Black Eel - and even those would substantially diminish as their headwaters would still dry/freeze up).  The Malthin, Lyksos, Marzeel, Bullflood, and Minthus are all affected this way and most of the Gorphing.  Some tributaries of the Gorphing extend farther into Maniria outside the Windstop.  They might get some wind/rain by the air/storms sucked towards the Windstop, but my thought is that those waters freeze over or are sucked into the dead earth as they pass the Windstop.  Does that make sense?  And what of the River of Cradles?

My assessment: Freezing conditions in Sartar: Hollri ice demons come down from the mountains and the lowlands of Sartar are covered in ice and snow: streams and rivers freeze over in the hills and dwindle elsewhere.

In Esrolia normal Dark Season conditions persist - no snow, but chilly.

The River of Cradles probably shrinks below its normal Dark Season depth and becomes unnavigable in places. There's probably still some water flowing, for a time, but eventually it's going to dwindle.

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

2) The Upland Marsh.  Presumably Delecti can fend off the effects of the Windstop in his 'dead' waters?  This would mean that 'some' water can be found by desperate Sartarites attracted to the open water.  At the same time, this could just be a lure by Delecti to boost his undead population (and the undead may roam farther to seek the dying and bring them to the Marsh for 'conversion').  It may also mean that the Ducks have a greater chance of survival because they can get water and harvest weeds or grains from the Marsh, and some folk might shelter in Duck Point (if not occupied still by the Lunars) as one way to survive the Great Winter.

My assessment: the Upland Marsh is covered in ice; in some places thick, in other places thin. The water below becomes increasingly stagnant and stinking. Just as ghouls are active elsewhere in Sartar, Delecti's minions have plenty of freshly dead or almost dead to harvest.

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

3) Choralinthor Bay and the Syphon River.  Fed by the oceans, the Choralinthor does not diminish, but may become saltier without the flow of fresh waters into it? Does/could it freeze over?  My guess is not, except near the land margins (the Rightarm Islands may suffer freezing when the tides drop, then the ice melts as the tide rises).  The Syphon, running backwards, would still flow at the start and likely still flows up into the print.  But it would be entirely salty now and everything along its banks would be contaminated by salts, as well as freezing.

I'd imagine that the Choralinthor is unaffected, but trying to cross it using a sail won't work. Trade in Nochet slows because merchant ships can't easily get in and out of port unless they hire rowers. Triremes and other military vessels can still cross the bay, but it takes time and effort.

With food running out, and prices rising from the few merchants who can pay for rowers, Nochet is going to have food riots.

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

4) The Skyfall.  What happens here?  This is a hole into the Gods World/Gods War.  I'm thinking that the hole might in fact expand and the entire area over the Skyfall Lake would be inundated by the waterfall.  But the clouds that normally shroud the Skyfall are gone.  That would mean that the trolls have water, and the water of the River would still flow down into Snakepipe Hollow.  I could see that the Dwarf might employ his tools to keep the River moving past Dwarf Run, and perhaps it has enough flow beneath the ice over it to reach the Upland Marsh.  Again, desperate folk might seek to reach the River, and even brave the horrors of Snakepipe Hollow to get water. 

The water freezes as it fails, becoming hail. It impacts the ground and freezes solid.

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

5) The River.  Assuming the Skyfall still pours down and the River still has current beneath the ice at least to the Upland Marsh, does any water still flow on south past the Marsh?  Perhaps enough to reach Duck Point or the Wild Temple, I'd guess, but it would freeze over and dry up somewhere after that.  It would not make it to the junction with the Lyksos or Choralinthor Bay without the added volume of rain and tributaries such as the Creek and the Stream.

Freezes over and starts to dwindle as its waters become ice.

For anyone interested in the effects of the stirrup for horse archers, 'The Composite Bow' by Mike Loades is recommended reading.

54 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Rainfall has no effect on fertility?  None? 

In magic rich Glorantha, the death of a Land God (or Goddess, most seem to be Goddesses) has dire consequences. Prax and the Wastelands are the Gloranthan equivalent of Mad Max land. There are areas of limited fertility and water where lesser spirits survived. For that matter, the death of Genert is probably why the northern continent is so damaged compared with Pamaltela where the Land God survived.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

However it's clear that these migrations may be specific individuals - like the First Migration references - Fanzali the Storm Bull & Oranstal the Sable. The Hillside Bison clan may have gone off at another time, returning to a lost home grazing of the Garden.

That chimes with the mass migration after the events of 830.

16 hours ago, David Scott said:

That's excactly what I'm going to look at. Also what exactly defines the wastes and who is telling what stories when about going where. The first age has praxians leaving Prax, and also heading into the wastes. Greg's text tells us which grasslands were found when. That's what I'm going to look at. Praxians were already in the wastes in the first age, the ostrich clan were found by fanzali. So yes it's a bit confused. Remember also that the histories are very Pavis-centric and the nomads have no written language. So the confusion is unsurprising. 

5 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Unfortunately, the evidence one often wants is lacking.  Assuming a saddle because one cannot see the lack of one is hardly reasonable, while the general lack of them (especially for light horse) in this period seems to suggest a blanket being more reasonable.  There are many suggestions concerning stabilising a lance during a charge without stirrups, but not being a rider I feel unable to comment on which would produce the best effect, let alone the success which it obviously had, historically.

All we basically have, for an obscure form of cavalry is a name. We know little to nothing of their equipment or their tactical use.

I'm also uncertain why sarissophoroi are even relevant, when we have canonical illustrations of Praxians using high horned saddles where useful, and blankets.

5 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Short term magic use is limited, obviously, but still real.  Applied to the trouser seat and to a strapped-on blanket, glue would be most effective for the charge-to-impact. 

Except for the need for both Glued objects to be at rest, relative to each other - something improbable for a rider in motion.

5 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

I don't think the myths must be followed in assuming the actual characteristics of ordinary warriors, or else I could cite the examples of Robin and his Merry band of outlaws for the obvious superiority of foot archers.

As most of the sources for Robin Hood date to around the 14th and 15th century, when the capability of the longbow was demonstrated at Sluys, Crecy, Poiters and Agincourt, the context of the story is apparent...

5 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Not really, I'm using it to to map the migrations. I already have  the framework, serpents are just another layer. I haven't needed to turn it on as it doesn't add anything to what I'm doing.

Understood.

Apologies for being a pain, but the Guide historical maps show the Praxians confined to Prax and not being present in the Wastelands until around 400 ST, expanding northwards by 700 ST and further east by 900 ST, and only getting back into Prax around 1220 ST.

However, the Timeline states 830 – Wastelands: Giants and nomads defeated by Pavis at Too Tall Battle. City of Pavis founded. Praxian nomads enter Wastes.

And the Wastelands chapter says: In 830, the Hero named Pavis animated the Faceless Statue that sat atop the Throne in Dagori Inkarth. He allied with the Pure Horse People, and together Pavis, his army, and his statue marched to the old site of Robcradle. At the Too Tall Battle, Pavis defeated the giants and nomads, and crippled the god Waha. Pavis healed Waha to bring peace between Pavis and the nomads. That same year, Pavis founded the city that bears his name and resurrected ancient magics which antagonized sleeping giants and caused years of struggle. The giants lost and more foreigners came to Prax.

The Wastelands were inhabited only by Chaos creatures until Waha led many of his people beyond the Vultures Country after his shameful defeat by Pavis and the Faceless Statue. They found it to their liking, and since then the animal nomads have struggled to survive there, and succeeded well. From thence they have come to raid the civilizations and Pentans about them.

The text suggests that in the First Age, the Animal Nomads were living only in Prax, and for much of the Second Age as well. Obviously, there's a potential discrepancy between the text and the maps...? I have no idea which is correct.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

 

Next - The First Age.

Would it be relevant to show the Serpents? The Guide says that these seasonal rivers can be relied upon to appear every one to four years.

Whilst some beasts can derive water from what they graze, many can't? The serpents and rare oases are going to be even more critical resources than fodder.

36 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Indeed, but you say that without paying attention to the concomitant disadvantage.

Not really: a horse archer is likely to have at least as good a range as any enemy archers, and is presenting a very brief target of opportunity. Given that light cavalry have mobility, if they are fighting infantry this gives them a distinct advantage.

38 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Precisely my point, actually.  Mass archery is seldom a matter of accuracy, but more a matter of putting as much death in the air as possible.

Yet horse archers often were individually excellent archers. They can fight in two distinct modes: quick inaccurate 'death in the air' and accurate targeting.

40 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

I am unaware of any depiction of the sarissaphoroi (the contemporary term for the Thessalian lancer) with a saddle rather than a basic blanket, I have to admit.  If you have such evidence I would be greatly interested.  Indeed the Sarissa in question was shorter than that of the infantry, which is why I specified 13'-20' rather than 16'-24'.  Even at a measily (!) 13 feet it was significantly longer than the kontos.

The sarissophoroi were light cavalry, and there's very little period material on their equipment, other than their lance, which is assumed to be a shorter version of the infantry Sarissa.

If they were using a long spear, then a basic blanket would have been insufficient to keep them in their seat. Unfortunately the one item that might have provided evidence about how the Macedonians kept their seat using a long spear from horseback (admittedly of later Roman manufacture but possibly based on a lost Hellenistic Greek painting), the Alexander Mosaic is damaged and the saddle detail is missing. So there's little period evidence, but plenty of experimental re-enactor evidence that using a long spear effectively from horseback is impractical without a firm saddle.

54 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Actually, we can take into account such things as glue spells between buttocks and horseback, Mindspeech between rider and mount etc, which would make for a far more stable firing and impact based cavalry.  If you are playing in a magical world, I do not think that ignoring the effects of magic are truly "the only thing to do".

For Mindspeech you'd need an intelligent horse, and whilst they exist in Glorantha, most Gloranthan horses are as bright as real world horses, so talking to them mind-to-mind would get you no further than shouting a command. Now a war horse can be trained to obey commands, but there's limit to what they can do. [I believe Mindspeech is being deleted from the new RuneQuest.]

23 minutes ago, Zit said:

If we consider battle magic -like Glue (*) or Mindspeech (**)- as in Runequest

 As you note, Glue has a short duration - fine for a few uses in combat, but to Glue two objects (non-living) together, they must be at relative rest to one another and not moving. So you'd have to have the horse stand still, Glue your trews or whatever to the blanket or saddle, and then go for the enemy. I don't believe that's entirely practical in battle, and if you try something impractical in combat, you may not survive it...

31 minutes ago, MatteoN said:

First of all, how would you define Glorantha, as a setting for RuneQuest? Gritty high fantasy? I can combine those words, but I'm not sure I can really imagine what it looks and feels like.

Glorantha can either be an extremely detailed and complex setting, or a broad background. The level of detail can appear daunting, but you don't have to know or use all of it, or even a fraction of the detail. It's there if you want it, but there are still plenty of areas left to the imagination. If you examine a pdf of the Guide to Glorantha, read the first few chapters, but the rest is there to be dipped into as needed.

The nature of any game in Glorantha very much depends on what you want it to be: there's room for epic high fantasy quests, treasure hunting adventure, military adventure, or whatever you want it to be. The main theme, which can either be center stage or distant background in the most common setting, Dragon Pass, is the conflict between the Lunar Empire and the nation of Sartar.

31 minutes ago, MatteoN said:

Second, what role do cults play in the game? Should I necessarily play some sort of zealot or pious person?

The majority of people in the world of Glorantha are initiates in one or more cults, much as the inhabitants of ancient Greece, Anatolia, Mesopotamia etc. were initiates in the cults of their various deities. As such, cults provide a framework for their social interactions and behavior. Some people are pious, some people pay their dues and continue with their daily life, and some people strive to rise in importance in their cult. Some cults are more demanding than others, and there's that background struggle between the Lunar Empire and the various cults which oppose it.

31 minutes ago, MatteoN said:

Third, what are the main factions in Glorantha, and what do characters (at least NPCs) belonging to each faction typically do in the game?

The main factional split among humans is - the divide between the Lunars and those who oppose them. Some cults oppose the Lunars more than others, but the Lunar cults and others fill pretty much the niches you'd expect: there are warrior cults, healer cults, knowledge cults, etc. But this struggle can be center stage or off stage, depending on the setting and style used. For example, the city of New Pavis, built beside the massive ruins of Old Pavis, the Big Rubble, is either occupied or liberated from the Lunars, depending on the date, but many of the inhabitants are interested in the treasures and dangers in the Rubble.

And of course there are non-humans with their own agendas.

To quote from the Guide:

In some Gloranthan stories the player characters will be ordinary villagers who are caught up in exciting and alarming circumstances. In others, the typical player character is an outsider to the region in which the adventure takes place. He is likely to be a wanderer in search of fame, prestige, or simple wealth, using his considerable skills in personal combat and magic wherever he travels. Such characters have a greater chance of survival and are more exciting to play for younger players.

What are some examples of Gloranthan adventurer occupations? Traditional Gloranthan player characters that we've seen include scruffy treasure-hunters, famous mercenaries, treacherous professional spies, distinguished emissaries, drunken caravan merchants, even roving scholars - basically, anyone working in hazardous activities for a chance at a big gain. Note that merchants are not listed incorrectly: a merchant's life can be very risky as well as very lucrative in Glorantha.

5 minutes ago, Zit said:

We could imagine the same for Praxians and Pentians spending all their time on horseback and doing tricks with them vs. settled cultures who have a more limited way to use their mounts and may not have recognized (or found) the insterest of rigid saddles and stirrups. But in the time of the Heroes War, there has been enough contacts to spread these over all the nations.

There's another factor that applies in Glorantha more than the real world: cultural conservatism.

Most of the Third Age cultures appear extremely cautious regarding innovation (the Lunars being the obvious exception) following the disasters at the close of the Second Age following the rampant experimentation of the EWF and God Learners. It may also be that magic also has an impact - if your battle magics rely upon traditional rituals, adopting something new could be disastrous (there is mention of regiments carrying things they can no longer use in combat, but must have because their magical traditions require it).

Almost all of the 'new' technologies are ancient, from before Time or shortly after the Dawn with very few periods of successful innovation: even shieldwall and phalanx warfare is derived from ancient models. Again, in the Third Age only the Lunars (and later Argrath) seem to experiment to any degree with military magics, techniques and technologies.

Something different, that might seem fairly harmless to us, like a new type of plow, or saddle, or stirrups, might have all sorts of ramifications, and present a potential hazard. Adopting something new probably requires a Heroquest, and even then might not be widely adopted.

3 minutes ago, David Scott said:

That's an interesting question Martin. The fertility of the Earth itself is damaged, not that it doesn't get enough rain, although that does play a minor role. Here's the 1620 snow line. It's about 20 miles north of the Hillside Bison Secret grasslands. These grasslands were discovered in the First Age and according to Greg's map, good grazing. I would place the snow line up against the grassland in the First age.

 

Interesting. Different rainfall patterns would probably affect the limited vegetation available, even in such a devastated ecosystem, and as several Praxian beasts have distinct diets might impact their populations.

The shifted Snow Line would affect the territorial range of the Pentans and Animal Nomads, leading to a different pattern of clashed between them. The Hillside Bison Secret Grasslands would be appealing to southerly Pentans, if they knew of it.

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

So moving on with the map. The next layer I said I was working was the fertility of the land. Basically this is showing where the best pasture is to the worst. My starting point is the worst - no grazing:

.

As the Snow Line was further south prior to the Third Age (Lunar Kalikos Icebreaker climate change) might this mean that some areas of the Wastelands were a little wetter in the First and Second Age, and perhaps a very little more fertile?

47 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

The slight height advantage is surely offset by presenting a far clearer target?  I can only imagine it being a significant advantage against formed foot with no missile support and poor upper body armour.

Any advantage in battle is useful.

48 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

As for stability, it depends on whether you are targeting an individual or a mass of troops.  For a duel, yes.  For a battle?  As I say, unconvinced.

Stability aids accuracy.

48 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

The difference between the Thessalian Sarrisaphoroi and the Kataphraktoi is quite significant, since the former were all but unarmoured and armed with the 13 - 20' long sarissa, whereas the Kataphrakt has the weight of their body armour and the far shorter kontos. 

True, though both used a saddle and no stirrups. However, Sarrisaphoroi (sic) were usually scouts or flank skirmishers and armed with a shorter spear than the infantry sarissa.

54 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

We are also trying to compare the abilities of a RW horse rider with those of a magically augmented Gloranthan.  I know who my money would be on!

As there's only the historical terrestrial model to base things on, and Gloranthan troops often closely follow these in terms of equipment and tactics (despite magical augmentation), it's the only thing to do.

26 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

The RW versions of the Pentans were using horse archery - very effective horse archery - long before the invention of stirrups.  They are in no way required.

I know. Standing in stirrups permits the use of a larger bow, a slight height advantage, and stability, aiding accuracy.

27 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Similarly, the use of the lance doesn't require stirrups.  Thessalian lancers couched the sarissa without saddle or stirrups.  Simply because an innovation makes something easier doesn't mean it was wither impossible or ineffective before.

Ditto: Cataphracts and other heavy cavalry were using kontos lances and impact charges long before stirrups were introduced.

17 minutes ago, Zit said:

BTW, are these US gallons or Imperials ? I wanted to convert all these into metrics for us, poor foreigners (or you may make a version with both ?)

I used the US as I assumed most people would prefer that. However, the variation given for many animals soaks up the difference between US and Imperial units.

13 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Personally I don't believe that this is the case, and as the 4th Age is a long way off I'm not going to look at it's effects on the Praxians (I'm only just starting to look at the years 0 to 35!).

I know: the 4th Age material in 'King of Sartar' is at best debatable. This will probably label me as a heretic, but I've always felt that the 4th Age framing device was the weakest aspect of the book.

1 hour ago, pachristian said:

For a good reference on horses check out: The Medieval Warhorse: From Byzantium to the Crusades (History/prehistory & Medieval History), by Ann Hyland (Sutton Publishing, 1994). 

Interesting, but too late Iron Age for Glorantha.

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Fortunately we aren't using a real world model. The High Llama tribe is likely to become the dominant tribe after the Hero Wars, mainly due to Yazurkial Blue Llama's participation. Likewise the Growth rate of the Rhino says they are destined for greatness at this stage.

Perhaps, but as magic seems to reduce in potency in the 4th Age, if the Sables survive, it's just a matter of Time...

Reposted here because it is relevant.

On the Gods War Q&A thread, Jeff has posted this:

Jeff Richard Collaborator about 4 hours ago

I have to admit, I don't buy Lynn White's claims about stirrups being revolutionary. There's plenty of archaeological evidence that the stirrup was known to the Parthians, Sakas, and the Chinese, and a fair amount of speculation that it was known to the Scythians and others.
So we have some stirrups in Glorantha - we know the Praxians use them. I suspect for the bison and high llama Riders, they are most important as a technique to get on and off their mount (they are awfully darn hard to mount without something like a stirrup).
I don't think stirrups are used in the West though. They aren't feudal knights.

On the Gods War Q&A thread, Jeff has posted this:

Jeff Richard Collaborator about 4 hours ago

I have to admit, I don't buy Lynn White's claims about stirrups being revolutionary. There's plenty of archaeological evidence that the stirrup was known to the Parthians, Sakas, and the Chinese, and a fair amount of speculation that it was known to the Scythians and others.
So we have some stirrups in Glorantha - we know the Praxians use them. I suspect for the bison and high llama Riders, they are most important as a technique to get on and off their mount (they are awfully darn hard to mount without something like a stirrup).
I don't think stirrups are used in the West though. They aren't feudal knights.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

As to the exact amounts, that's too much detail for me, but could be 50% less, as they are magically sustained as well. Outside of the Wastelands they revert to normal, what ever that is.

As to what the land will support, one of the next layers on my map will be the fertility data. I can extract that from Greg's original maps and notes to show where the best grazing is.

 

I was attempting to capture the 'normal' values for assessing logistics. My numbers are based on real world intake, or extrapolation for extinct/fantasy creatures (a few questions to a professor of biology specializing in extinct herbivores). Even if a rhino in the Wastes only requires half the normal intake, they still have a significant 'footprint' regarding the amount they have to eat.

It is clear that the Praxian rhinos, and to a lesser degree the high llamas are doomed to eventual extinction. The Wastelands will eventually, if they survive the Hero Wars, be the range of only sables (which eat almost any vegetation), zebras and the pygmy tribes. Big animals tend to suffer most when an ecosystem is stressed, and the Wastelands appear constantly stressed. Magic may preserve them for a while, but in a few centuries the rhinos will die out, as, tragically, they will in the wild in the real world in a decade or so.