scott-martin

Many of these are ominously plausible and even enticing! Thank you all. It is good to see them.

I know I've come up with some whoppers over the years but tonight I can no longer shake the suspicion that the whole Third Age cult around "heroes" is actually rooted in a faulty transmission of the archaic "horal" ethos. What convictions do YOU have that you recognize are ridiculous but love them anyway?

Whenever I see curses and chaos together lately I think of the Bright Empire . . . curse of kin, the Telmori curse, the mysterious "failed" dragonewt curse, Dorastor seeded with curses. Nations and tribes reshaped forever in the Dawn Age wars. So I think, when people talk about the ducks being cursed, when and how does that happen? I would not be surprised if there was a noble bird nation once, not sufficiently hostile to Nysalor and brought low. They could fly. The curse took that away and the records of their glory were lost. Maybe they were allied with the heron worshippers of the swamp belt, maybe they were a "ratite" culture. Maybe the harpies fell more or less simultaneously. And if we learn how it happened, we're a step closer to repairing it. But if anyone can disprove this hypothesis, it's you. Of course it could be just be the lurgy season. I hear a lot of gardens have gone to pollen this year.

Mighty Quackatoa, do you have record of duck people in Central Genertela before the Bright Empire and its demise? There are curses and then there are curses.

The juice must flow! Otherwise all we end up with is these raisins.

This is why I don't mind "king" in theory for the queen's primary husband-protector. In this part of the world "king" is at best a few generations away from being synonymous with "sacrifice" and in the wreckage of the Winter several probably met the sharp end of a knife or axe as various queens got desperate for ways to get the seeds germinating. Some grandmothers undoubtedly argue for reinstating hard term limits now. We probably see this most clearly in areas where Flamal worship survives . . . probably not Crel's Sylthi but I bet as you move toward Belernos king longevity declines. Of course grandmothers facing Heortland are probably relatively skittish about any whiff of independent male authority (the Leingod model) so that's another great source of conflict. Around here "prince" might reflect alliance with Issaries for that matter. These might be matches for love or money but obscure cult dogma suggests that you'll want a husband-protector as well. (You can get around this by getting an AA sub license.) Love the original post. Hot stuff!! I adore the Fat Women. Worship well and often, ladies! EDIT every temple worth having is a market and vice versa

Love it! And I take your point in terms of "apparent" spiraling. The Gate is fixed. The sky turns. Sky Lore is not my expertise so I am going to have to ponder many of the fine points. I'd forgotten about that bit. Couple things here before we find our way back to AA. First, the Cloak of Night feels like the Desert to me, which would help us figure out which star is Eurmal Firebringer (interesting elemental attribution there) and then step back to Malkion. In that scenario, we're still in the western sky and so "Eurmal" can be one of the Ring. If not, what is its number? Likewise, Malkion's star might be Thasus 32, which opens up all kinds of convergences. It's also interesting that the Guide mentions the descending Block wiping out at least one star in the return path. Does this indicate that a primary Spike was directly under the Desert, perhaps around what we now call Jrustela? More broadly, a Dawn Age celestial role for "Malkion" suggests some avenues for Bright Empire integration into Western theology. Just as we know about a High Sun and a High Storm (one more successfully suppressed than the other) there might have been a High Law now lost. Or for that matter, High Law might have simply been the Bright Empire recension of one or more archaic Malkions, reinterpreting the rustic patriarchal figures as a cosmic principle. Naturally nobody will like this but me but my war on the blue man continues. To step back for a moment, a Xentha archetype seems to have been a major player in Spol so if they probed the night that's probably where we'd find a big body of lore. On the other hand they might have focused on analyzing the shadows between the lights. Xentha is also friendly with the dull and faintly glowing phenomena like the Streak and the equivalent of Artmal's vesper (possibly the lonely cry or "eastern lights") so her cult is probably a primary source of what we know about them. I suspect Argan Argar In Peloria got wrapped up in this cult and then suppressed when it fell. Maybe the Spindle Hags preserve parts of it. Night worship is also cited in Guhan within the old "Dark" empire that followed the "Bright." Arkat is known to have pursued star magic to the extent that Plentonius' understanding of Quail and Dove no longer applies. Of course a lot of Arkat's sky work was eradicated in order to prevent reprisals. It would be amusing to think of the trolls as passing this on as purely theoretical hearsay . . . they themselves can't see the little lights twinkling but they can pass the lore on to those of us who can. EDIT so I blew a precious traded point of Blue Divination and here's what I got: NOT THE FIRST (OR LAST) POLE STAR. Maybe you know what that means.

The seeds of much good blasphemy here as we pick through the wreckage of Kallyr's disasters. EDIT: In fact, I initially cut the list in the belief that this reply would be an extremely short placeholder while your points digest. Turns out I was wrong! In particular the coincidence between the seven-day Theyalan week, the Ring's transit and the modern Lunar period is striking, as is the possibility that like the Streak (Orlanth is also a "blue" god) the Ring spends time spinning up the outside of the sky. The Streak's broken period. Find enough of those gates and something like Reaching Storm / Permanent Ring might become possible. Of course for that to even be an issue would require the theoreticians to tap "cyclical storm" forces in the first place, which is pretty advanced by our primitive terminal third age standards. Separately and slow as always, I'm starting to wonder how much of an archaic Sky/Star ("High") pantheon flourished under the Bright Empire and where the scattered remnants survived. This might have been a central theme in the Fronelan occupation about which nearly nothing is known, for example. Whether a Bear participated in that or not, MGF. Umath is interesting because so much of his story revolves around getting it wrong the first time. Otherwise there would be no "second time" requiring so much superficial repetition. One way to read it is that someone tried to combine a mythic complex where the rebel failed with another where the rebel won. Obviously the failure is no longer relevant so he must be the precursor of the success we recognize today. High Storm people might have really explored this . . . after all, their god's name was tarUmath and not tarLanth. And of course the "brother" who drops out of this process is our friend Umat whom Arkat but not Harmast loved. The geographical dispute over the true center of the world is probably baked into this "syncretic" interpretation. Take a myth where the sacred mountain was north and try to combine it with one where the "spike" was east and you are going to run into trouble unless the center is with you and moving, maybe in a kind of spiral when viewed from a certain arbitrary vantage. Just as star mysticism is odd among nominally storm people (star tribe descendants excepted of course), the sacred mountain is a strange and pregnant intrusion in the deep Orlanth mysteries. We all know that Larnste Mover, Soul Arranger Issariesfather, is the real mountain god. But some say Lodril. Likewise the eyes of the Pole strike me as a theme dualistic illuminoids would have embroidered in documents waiting to be unearthed. Someone must have invested a lot of effort exploring the Dayzatar system and Pole is Dayzatar's emanation along with Ourania with her two weeping eyes. Dualism for me is an artifact of "Bright" illumination and its reactions and inversions (Spol) so whether you are on the left or the right eye path is probably very important to some people . . . battles of night and day. Ideally post-1625 lunar magic will reach for tools like these. If you reading this have ever thought the words "mary sue" in proximity to the Argrath you know where to reach me.

I really like this. Maybe related: I have never really fathomed the role of the "star" heart in orthodox Orlanth initiation. You definitely want to kindle something perpetual within your self that can ground more dangerous magical work. But why do storm people use stellar terminology to describe the experience? And for that matter, why is it necessary to give the Lightbringers a presence not just in the "middle air" but the sky itself? This is not just archaeological trivia because it opens the door to alternative LBQ and Return Path approaches. Modern accepted Harmast uses the sunpath gates and requires the Westfaring. In theory, the exit takes you back around to the east gate and you ride the dawn. The Ring, on the other hand, starts in the West and spirals up and out. This tempts Orlanth questers with a broader pool of options and creates spiritual tension, i.e., MGF. It also exposes complexity behind my friend Harmast and his great work. I wonder now what High Storm taught. Also it's past time we named and numbered the orange stars in the Ring.

I thought that was disorder! I think I know where the puppeteers come from now. Thanks for that.

All these stories are equally true. The puppeteer counter is portrayed juggling what appears to be a six-ball shower, which is extremely difficult. We usually start with three.

Much like Joerg I wonder if these are not really trolls in the sky but allied celestial darkness entities. What we have here might be the origin of entities like the Tamali who might have been mostly assimilated into the troll way so early on that we only have fragmentary records. The Tamali are notorious for being a "shadow" people. So, arguably, are the uz-adjacent tribes of Pamaltela. Of course I am no authority in modern troll politics so I would take these notes with even more caution than usual. However, it strikes me that people who remember the White Elves occasionally hint at a kind of substitution where the sky forest disintegrates and a new wave of Takers emerges in its place. This might be simply the elf memory of the sky changing color but even in that scenario, your "sky trolls" are probably involved. They might be related to the children of Lorion . . . more work is always required.

IMG this varies across the Aeolian diaspora but generally the "orlanth" or kshatriya principle really does call the shots and the "issaries" is content in a mediating role. Barntar (probably with a lot of folk "flesh man" practice) works the land and a form of Humakt provides the muscle when needed. This reveals something of the way the "gunas revolve" dynamic informs Western social history. The "farmer" or shepherd (dronar) rises through upheaval (horal) to become the new aristocracy ("talar") while old aristocrats fall or simply recede (zzabur). Losers are pushed to the bottom and history cycles. Intellectuals and intermediaries are not always content to merely guide the process but in most places efforts to rule in their own name are not sustainable. I don't think the brahmins lead collateral worship in normal circumstances but probably jealously protect a ritual specialist role. Real talar magic (as opposed to the social status) depends on a sacrificial economy that few bookworms can negotiate . . . MOA experience unlocks it fairly reliably.

It's how Glorantha happens. At least one of the Princes believes this. Others reject or amplify parts. We find out who is on which side.

I think you two just also solved the Lunar obsession with finding a warm water port and, failing that, keeping the strategic Dorastor route open despite immeasurable losses.

What little we know about Belintar's relationship with the Silver Age Founders can charitably be described as "occult" in the wake of the MOLAD disaster but I agree with Jajagappa, the Loyal Household seems to function differently. If I were gambling (luck and death!) I would chase the theme back to the original institution of Unity . . . this is the related to the ecumenical collective effervescence OOO in his genius was able to bolt together and save the world. It's his thing. We can love him for that if nothing else. Within Time, some pieces of that collective fell away and became "disloyal." We don't talk about them now. These are the ones that remain. Here in the 1600s it's probably a shrunken household. Hardcore AAs have spent a few centuries in the literal wilderness out of power. Their "loyalty" preserves the memory of Mastery. The profound thing is the way this also resembles the Husband Protector court, which sometimes seems curated to achieve elemental universality with a female figure at the hub. Maybe Argan Argar has many wives as a parallel to the Esrolian menu and as a subversion of normative troll family. It's good to be the shadow king. Maybe this points to a primeval interface between an "Ernalda" and one or more Kyger Litor. Now that you mention it, I've heard more than once in the necropolis that "Ernalda is a black goddess" but you hear similar whispers about everyone in the old parts of town. Maybe AA is sometimes a woman like Belintar is sometimes a woman and has husbands or "best friends." The easy way out is to give him something like Four Weapons Subcults and leave it open whether Orlanth worship adopted the form from the troll overlords back when we all lived nearer the dark. Of course Pavis remembers something like this too.

I should be doing that too! My feeling rhymes with yours that the Princes are probably not the best and brightest. They might have had a golden age once but those days are long gone for most. On the other hand, Hero Wars may get a few to rise to the occasion and recollect themselves. I was gonna make a Kojeve joke somewhere to go with the Habermas, maybe it's in here somewhere. EDIT TO ADD VALUE: What's interesting is that once Belintar gets the boats working again the first voyage goes west to seed ports in that direction. He doesn't send a mission to Kralorela until well after Handra is happy. This tells me that (options) 1. The stuff he wanted most was in Handra's direction . . . maybe he preferred their tea. 2. It was intelligence he really craved and the mercantile applications were a nice side bonus. 3. Circumventing the Princes would destabilize rivals of his court and give his friends (Prax-facing Issaries) time to pivot.

I lean toward all three. Moving backward chronologically, these towns have definitely seen better days. The last half century has been challenging (No. 2) and many of the best, brightest and most mobile have drifted off to Fay Jee, Khorst, Handra and into the trade centers at either end of the route. An increasingly hard core of traditionalists and dead enders remains. But there's a secret here: even in the glory days before the Opening, the Road doesn't really seem to have scaled to require or support massive numbers of people (No. 1). Unless there's a robust appetite for mule meat in Safelster, the route is only worth what it can support in the round trip and while the Safelster end will pay for religious artifacts, "philosophical" texts and other luxury cargo, how much can you send back to depressed Nochet? Those mules need to eat both ways or get eaten, much as it grieves me to say. My suspicion is that they handed extremely high-value cargo (iron for the East) to Desert Trackers at that point and the Trackers threw them a bone to cover costs. While there's a hard constraint on the amount of metal available, limiting the number of hooves on the road luckily also supports artifact prices so win win. Then when Belintar shows up things get a little better but his inner circle probably captures more of the goodies before the stuff even gets on the Road. Suddenly the westward leg has a supply gap. Fewer hooves on the road means you don't need as much support . . . fewer farmers, fewer drivers, leaner service stations. Then you've got the forest (No. 3) to deal with. We know Castelain made pacts in order to push the Road through there at all. There are probably hard constraints on land clearing or else a quarter million mreli erase you. Maybe the Switch is also in play so the land is glitchy. If you have to import food via mule train you aren't going to want to feed a lot of people. As a No. 4 scenario it would be neat if the Trader Prince population is significantly larger than what's on the maps because so many people are on the Road at any given moment and so don't show up as being "in town." However this is probably no more than 10-20% at the most outrageous. Side notes, Khorst is really weird. Where did all these people come from? Where do they live? The Marsh is unlikely to support high densities and the town itself looks pretty isolated. Before the Trader Princes took over this route Chain Gang probably had a link back to the Shadow Plateau. I don't know when this ended (probably atrophy on the God Learner end and then Belintar does his best to shut it down once and for all) but it's worth teasing out a bit. Trolls were the only people with real access to Dragon Pass ruins after the Kill, so OOO becomes the critical link feeding that stuff into the Esrolian end of the Road. The Safelstrans evidently didn't want to work with the Chain Gang or the Gang didn't want to carry it directly. First thing that comes to my mind is that Arstola would have complained and again you have the quarter million mreli problem, so one way or another Castelain found a way like we always do.

That's super good. I appreciate sorcery but was never happy with the coercive economy of commanding the runes to obey your will. I like Fair Exchange: each party surrenders something and receives something else in return. Far more sustainable, even "logical" if you start from a non-neurotic entropic model. Of course to them in Leplain that looks like satanic "pacts" while the heathen to the east are satisfied to hear that it's a form of "spell trading." This is now IMG. I'd say answering these questions is a big piece of how the Hero Wars play out in the West. Taking them in reverse order indicates that they have a historical awareness of pre-Rufelzan "lunar" phenomena (although probably as a condition rune suggesting relational or process concepts) and that the Twins play a big role in that. A lot of this has since been purged or enticed up to join up with the Empire but vestiges probably remain here and there for MGF. Specialists probably bicker the fine distinctions until they run out of breath and ink but I have no record of an elemental "moon" being important to these cults in the western era . . . while Tolat is the red planet and Annila is occult, I don't think western sorcerers have ever assigned either much of an elemental court to manipulate via the standard techniques. Further complicating the ultimate answer is the persistence of a white lunar goddess in a few obscure myths in this part of the world, so if we identify two "elements" or elemental phases here then there are probably really three.

Love it. Development in this part of the world has faced its challenges but humble questers can still make hellacious discoveries here. These hexes deserve it.

Why not, right? You're already in for the project of a lifetime, why not make it more complicated? The most accessible version of the western elemental system is HERE but it's backed up in other places. I forgot that they would also break Cold out separately from Darkness but doubt that's going to come up a lot in this part of the world.

Maybe have some real fun, give them a version of one of the archaic western elemental systems that separate Sky from Fire. ASHARA may do the duties of Man in that world to push against the old totemic tribal world.

IMG they present somewhere between autonomous Issaries grandees and old-school Talars, which is a Deep Secret of the Hero Wars.

Now that you mention it the metafictional properties of Impossible Landscapes probably helped drive the materialists mad in a direction often associated with the "mystic." “What we see or what we seem are but a dream, a dream within a dream" - from Samin's Song (apocryphal)

Great stuff from all throughout this thread. More extensive travel + journey always awaits ("where she is you now must follow") but there's an interesting twist to the craft goddesses where Stone was the fourth corner. Stone's gender presentation is less clear early when he was alive but this is a direction to explore for goddesses who may have once had a family but now drift in the interstices. Mapping the "gor" aspects (I think most were originally likitas) separately might end up telling us something about "fourth corner mind" and efforts to divide, conquer and reduce primal earths to more manageable roles. Or not! It is thrilling to see so many people really engaging with the Entekosiad. Your explorations are the future.