Nevermet

#HarandingForLife

Oh, they definitely worship Issaries. As for Castelein, given relics from his body are housed in temples to the Invisible God, he's definitely honoured somehow. Veneration isn't a thing any more, or I would say that. I think that the Guide's depiction of the Trader Princes goes beyond hiring some wizards. Every city has a temple to the Invisible God, the Trader Princes are explicitly henotheists, and there is a local tradition of Malkioni philosophy (as small and decentralized as it may be). I agree that the wizards are more practical than abstract due to their situation, but there seems to be some sort of institutionalized field of Trader Prince Wizard-Priests. If there is, then it would stand to reason that making sense of Castelein (and holding rituals at his tombs) would be the basis of the local tradition.

As I was thinking the best interpretation was that the western elements came from Safelster, this is fine by me All I was trying to do was acknowledge the syncretic situation in Safelster. Or rather, the syncretic situations, since it seems like every town has its own combination of Malkioni, Theyalan, Enerali, and Arkati worldviews. Fully aware Drom & Helby are in that syncretistic soup.

Irensavalism, which makes a distinction between the Hidden Mover and the Demiurge, is "gnostic". Rokarism and the Brithini, less so. IMHO, etc. EDIT: What I know about emanationism does seem similar to most forms of Malkionism, yes.

Using the terms loosely, all Malkioni religion is something akin to deist. The Invisible God created the universe by creating the runes. The proper way to engage reality is not to make sacrifices to runes or negotiate with them, but to control them according to their rational order. (Actually, given the myth about Malkion the Sacrifice, I guess it would actually accurate to call the Malkioni pandeistic) The wrinkle is of course that the runes developed minds of their own, and claimed to be worthy of sacrifices and appeasement. In the most hardline versions of Malkionism, that is rejected as badwrong (Rokarism, the Brithini). Other strains have a more pragmatic approach. This is pretty much my approach for Trader Prince Wizards who attempt to understand wizardry through Castelein.

Assuming what I just wrote holds water (praise Heler), then I have at least 2 questions I'm not completely sure about. What are the religious and magical expectations on the merchant-judges (Talars) of the Trader Princes? Are the hopeful kings among them initiates of Orlanth? Of Issaries? My current thinking is that there are much fewer explicit requirements than, say, among the Heortlings. That said, I'm not sure what the tendencies are. What is the origin of the Malkioni influences within Trader Prince culture? For most of this thread, I have been assuming (and still assume) the answer is it comes from Safelster. However, that has some problems. Castelein is most likely from Helby, which is a kingdom with little tradition in western religion or culture. Rather it is a kingdom where people worship Ehilm the Sun and the white horses that pull him across the sky. The other possibility is that it is an artifact of Slontos survivors, but this has even more problems it seems to me. Slontan refugees taken in by the Manirians would not be in a position, nor would they have the motivation likely, to turn their barbarian saviours toward a God that just forsook them. So... I'm not sure. Now.... along the New coast, the New Fens, Caratan, Ramalia, Kaxtorplose, and the old families of Highwater.... their relationship with Slontos will be very different than the Manirians as a whole.

As I said before taking a step back from the thread, I really stepped in it, in the sense that I stopped making careful arguments about things. So, I'll try to fix that. And again, thanks for the feedback, especially from Metcalph & Joerg over the last page. A lot of what I'm about to say is a repetition of their comments, and building on them. To get back into the thread, I'm going to try to organize and distill the last 2 pages of discussion, focusing primarily in this post on the question of how are the Trader Princes are "Western." The Trader Princes are, according to the Guide, "hereditary nobility of merchants, judges, and priests" of the Manirian tribes. The Manirians (as I'll be using the term) are the Orlanthi tribes, and IMG, they include the Bastis, Ditali, Dokali, Nimistori, and Swarz. While the Manirians are a tangled mess, I'm more focused at the moment on the Trader Princes. Thus, other groups in Maniria such as the Pelushi or the Caratan are not Manirians. Effectively, the Trader Princes Talari and Zzuburi (many people in the thread have said this). Given the description, as well as the image of a cloistered elite in massive fortresses they call cities, The Trader Princes do not have 2 separate hereditary lines for rulers and wizards. Rather, it's one population with a shared lineage, with decisions being made individually on the vocation of a particular Trader Prince(ss). The Rulers The Trader Princes occupy a position of power based on two pillars. First, all diplomacy and trade beyond the tribe must go through the Prince. By law, a Nimistori chief could not sell food to Kaxtorplose in exchange for artisan craftsgoods, unless the trade was approved by the recognized Trader Prince. Second, the Prince is the peaceful arbiter between the clans. If two Ditali clans are having a dispute, King Tarvel or one of his representatives goes to investigate and make a ruling. The Trader Princes do not have the ability to make war, only protect trade caravans. This can be very blurry, but if a tribe decides a war is needed, the elect a temporary warlord. Greymane was elected warlord of the Solanthi after the Opening created an economic crisis where an intricate network of debts collapsed. Greymane's solution was to ally with the Ditali and plunder Esrolia. It was so successful that he began to think of how to make his position permanent and create a dynasty of rulers over the Solanthi and the Manirians more broadly. Culturally, the Trader Princes are a strange lot. They have riches and knowledge from places far, far away. And often have a superficial understanding of those cultures as well. At least after the Opening, however, most have not been beyond their tribal territories. And since Greymane, they are often loathe to leave the cities at all. The Wizards Here is what we know about Trader Prince Zzuburi: " local Malkioni philosophers posit that Equal Exchange is the First Principle." (p. 352) Thaaat's... about it. Here is my tentative claim: As Metcalph points out, Castelein the Traveller was a Trader Hero, not a philosopher. He likely did not leave behind a carefully constructed argument of systematic theology. Instead, he probably left behind the Gloranthan equivalent of "Business success books". The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Heroquesters or something. Practical advice, combined with commentary and cryptic comments. However, one of the things he kept saying was that Equal Exchange is the First Principle. There is no consensus what that means among the Trader Prince Zzuburi, and over the last 4 or 5 centuries a tradition of commentary has emerged where people try to analyze and systematize Castelein. As pointed out by others, however, claiming the 1st principle is equal exchange will make a lot of sorcerers burst out loud laughing, except Rokari, who will burn whoever said that whenever possible. The Trader Princes are very aware they have never been (and now it looks like never will be) a mighty empire, so they're obsessed with trying to push Castelein as a distinct and powerful founding hero. As a result, the amount of ridiculous theorizing about him is over the top. Nevertheless, the Trader Prince Zzuburi are very much the curators of their distinct culture. (Lack of) Other Castes The Guide is very clear that the Trader Princes do not have a Horali warrior caste, relying on a combination of Pralori mercenaries and housecarls from the clans. Similarly, it seems reasonable, as others have pointed out in this thread, that the Manirians are effectively the Dronars, though nobody would call them that. Further Blurring I think the category of "The Trader Princes" is more culturally institutionalized within Maniria than a distinct Talari caste vs Zzuburi caste. However, the Trader Princes themselves are aware their wizards (or philosophers or sophists) are a different breed than their merchant-judges. The avereage Trader Prince will talk about the Trader Princes as a group ruling over or "guiding" the Manirians, and the Manirians will talk about the Trader Princes with their gold and walls.

I'm getting back into this thread today. I got a bit of writer's block, and I hope to chip away at that a little. Thanks to everyone who took time to help me exactly how I asked for it: pointing out what setting ideas seemed to work and which wasn't didn't (at least with "canonical" Glorantha). Be back later... I need to do real work for a while

I feel inadequate because I cannot think of a sufficiently dumb theory. uh... lessee... Belintar is the God of Silver Feet!

Also, I have created a relationship map of key NPCs. White are Manirian tribespeople. Yellow are the Trader Princes of Selgos (with Purple & Green as other TP groups). Black are ogres. Blue are Greymane's men. Circles are NPCs, and diamonds are communities. As I organized this, two things became apparent. First, I set things up that the ogres are in town, but they don't really have control of the city, which explains why they're just trying to blow it up. Second, the PCs are heavily leaning into getting help from the Manirians to solve the ogre problem, rather than leaning into their Trader Prince contacts, trying to play nice with Greymane's men, etc.

Also, we have an agreed upon summary of the game: "A Rockstar, her manager, and their spiritual adviser fight an evil conspiracy of evil." I submit that Comic Sans is the correct font for that sentence.

I haven't posted in a while. Sorry. It's been a complicated few weeks. The short version is yes, though I also had a very wrong understanding of how the pass / fail cycle, so I didn't use it at all last session. I don't think I'm bring it back this next session. Anyways, last week, I was 1 player short, so the other two decided to be investigative, and the session abbreviated. All three players have decided they are all shocked and appalled that someone would dare to assassinate a spirit, and they have more or less sworn revenge. They tried to investigate the murder scene with minimal success, and then they realized they could look up help through their communities. And thus began me making some improvised NPCs very quickly. The Musicians Hall of Selgos is basically a Temple to Donandar. I'm not 100% sure such things are common in the setting, but bah. So, musicians often travel with the caravans, and there is often a musician's collective somewhere in or near the walled cities of the Trader Princes. "The Conductor" gave them rumours of ogres, though he has no idea what is true and what isn't. He also told them there was strange, discordant music coming from a nearby hill out of the city about a month ago. They checked it out later and found nothing, but the music sounded wrong to the magically sensitive musicians. The musician PC has a magic item, an intelligent musical instrument. The conductor failed his lying roll VERY badly when he claimed he didn't know anything about the magic item. The musician PC, for political reasons, decided not to call the Conductor on the lie. Next, they went to "Old Patch" of the Yellow Campers. The Yellow Campers are a spirit society I developed with one of the players for his character. They are, in short, the non-warrior auxilliaries that follow Manirian war-bands. They hold camp, tend the wounded, make food, take care of animals and prisoners, etc. His healer is a member of teh Yellow Campers, having turned his back on being a warrior. The Yellow Campers are found throughout the Manirian Tribes, and they have a hospital camp just outside the walls of Selgos. Old Patch in their unofficial leader. The PCs were VERY diplomatic and repectful, and that paid off well. They were told details about how the spirit that was killed was part of razing a village to the ground in an attempt to kill an ogre there. They were also told where that vilage used to be, and that the shaman of the village probably is still there. They were also told some details about the ogres, who are DEFINITELY in town. (What the PCs do not know yet is that the ogres are working on a ritual to summon the cacodemon) So, next session, they are debating whether to go out to the village, or do something in town. They're probably going out of town.

i hope I'm not being a pest, but is there any official word on the status of Cosmic Zap? I thought I should ask on the (semi-?) official thread about Questworlds.

Truly "dumb" theories require a deep and wildly idiosyncratic reading of the setting. I gotta learn more to truly get dumb. 😎

My ideas are not informed enough to be as glorious as these, but here we go Ganestoro is Lodril Argrath is Gagarth reborn The white moon is Gerra vindicated Old Malkion's last citadel is in Maniria or off its coast Daak and Daxdarius are the same deity

There's a musician, a merchant, and an eventual shaman. If that's not a team to spread the Glory of Rock, I dunno what is

I'm going to re-read this tomorrow and see if I can think of anything worth saying.

The plot of the session was very simple: The players set up a concert, and the bard of the group performs. Meanwhile, at the other end of the plaza, Greymane's recruiter's are trying to drum up business. 2 side issues are becoming apparent: 2 of my players are 12 years younger than me. As a result, all Rush and Neil Peart jokes fell flat on them Wednesday night. This saddens me greatly. Rush is one of the reasons I moved to Canada, dammit! ...ok, not really (my wife got a good job), but it sounded good. The dicerolling bot I'm using in Discord loves my players. What Happened So, I tell them I want to ask them a series of questions, and how they answer will structure the mechanics for the session. The first question I ask them is I know that they want to put on a great show, but what are the consequences of that? After some lengthy discussion, they agree they want a concert that raises their profile, and as a secondary effect improves their noblewoman's standing (either in terms of reputation or financially, as they will be selling her wine at the event) They're definitely starting to get that when dice are involved, it's not just trying to do something, but what's the point the matters. I then ask each of the three players what their character is going to do to prepare for the concert. These actions will have rolls, and they will end up being augments for the concert. The merchant has a TBA spell on her sheet, and decides she wants it to be "Slap a Logo on it!" which allows her to etch a logo or brand on an inanimate object. As this is gloriously thematic, I agree. She then goes into the market and buys a ton of swag: scarves, tankards, hats, etc, and she brands them all with either the caravan's symbol, or the noblewoman's symbol. "What's a good concert without swag?" she asks. I cannot argue. She rolls a marginal failure. I rule that she has swag, but a lot of it is kinda cheap in an obvious sort of way. They give no benefit to the concert, and if the concert isn't a success, she's going to have a "cash flow problem." The Healer at first decides he's going to help make food in the kitchen, but then starts asking if he can try to find spirits in the plaza. He's decided he'll let the others do immediate planning, because he wants to try to get more information on the Ogres and any other odd supernatural activity. I was not ready for that question.... but I say sure as that has opportunities for fun. One success later, he finds 2 spirits of note: An earth spirit is living in the arch of the main gate into the plaza, and some sort of warrior spirit that is small, in chains, and has been obviously cursed. The earth spirit gets along with him, wants to tell him the history of the city walls over the last 4 centuries but isn't immediately helpful. The earth spirit can, however, detect Chaos and other threats to the city walls, so it has sensed ogres passing through in the past. The healer had less time to spend with the other spirit, but he learned he was a combat spirit summoned to help chase down an alleged ogre in an outlying village. Things got out of hand, and the ogre escaped and a massive fire engulfed a lot of the town. The spirit magician who controlled the spirit was exiled, and the spirit was cursed by a local shaman. The spirit was VERY confident it acted in a very rational manner. (I couldn't remember off the top of my head if there was a way to make an Uroxi spirit, but this was basically a stormbull anti-chaos spirit) The Skald announces she's.... going to find a drummer. Because what's a good show without a drummer? So, she finds a drummer. I ask her to give me the name of the tavern she finds him in, and she blurts out "The Broken Femur!" Awesome. I decide that the roll is not to find a drummer, but whether the drummer augments the concert mechanically. She finds this guy, and his name is Neil: She rolls a marginal success, and she returns to the Plaza, Neil in tow. The player of the Healer and I then try to explain who Neil Peart is to the other two players. They are very nice and humour us middle-aged geeks politely. I wanted the concert to be climactic... but honestly it wasn't. I made the Recruiters stiff competition for attention, but the PCs rolled well and burned HP to win. The result was a victory in 5 rounds, 5 points to 0. One nice touch: the player of the skald had come with a music playlist of rock her PC was going to play. We're definitely leaning into the game world being one big 1980s heavy metal video. (and honestly, there are worse ways to do things) My coup de grace, though was when the concert was finishing victoriously, I asked the Healer to make a Spirit roll. The ogres have been shadowing the group since they killed an ogre in the 1st adventure, and the ogres saw the healer talking with an anti-chaos spirit (I'm going to assume there is an animist ogre in the mix somewhere, somehow). Anyways, the ogres are not a fan of this, and assassinated the anti-chaos spirit during the concert. The Healer failed his roll, so he did not see the murder, but he found the dying spirit after the concert. Another failed roll, and the spirit died in his arms. The Healer is NOT happy. Closing situation Here's where things stand now The big issue in the game is now apparent to me: the ogres are in town, and they are going to summon Cacodemon to destroy Selgos unless the PCs stop them. Meanwhile, the Greymane recruiters are not happy with the players, and are going to angrily (but not violently at first) ask why the PCs ruined their recruitment for the next invasion of Esrolia. Exactly how much they are a threat moving forward will depend on how the players manage them. At the same time, the Noblewoman is just trying to figure out how to stabilize her situation, but the PCs are being PCs, the ogres want her dead, and now her older brother, the Lord Mayor of Selgos is going to have a paranoid concern that she's trying to take over the city. She doesn't want to overthrow her brother, but she may find herself in a situation where she is either going to be killed or lead a palace coup. Closing Thoughts My players have gotten to a point where they want to do things they think make sense plot-wise, but they have no idea how its represented mechanically. They assume I'l figure it out and let them know. This is a mixed blessing: While I like their creative thinking (swag, get a drummer), I'm not COMPLETELY a fan of "just tell me what I need to roll, when." They continue to succeed too much. I worry they're going to get bored because they aren't being challenged enough. If this was a combat oriented game, they would all be Steven Seagal characters: badasses who squint and then rip people limb from limb. I realized I wasn't adjusting the base based on prior rolls, so I'm going to do that more moving forward. I don't want to be one of those mean GMs, but players need to be challenged. Its no fun if you just instantly win.

Prepping for tonight's game. In short, they are putting on a concert, welcoming their allied noblewoman back to Selgos, promoting her wine, and taking donations so she can fight the (extremely undefined and to-be-determined) Good Fight. They will be doing so at the opposite end of a large plaza in Selgos, while recruiters from Greymane will be at the other. More or less on principle the PCs have decided they need to annihilate all competition and get all eyes focused on them. I have re-watched Scott Pilgrim vs the World for inspiration. 😜 The head of the recruiters is an initiate of Finovan the raider, but he is aided by an entire entourage. The main people doing public recruitments are an initiate of Drogarsi the Skald, and an initiate of Issaries & Thereltero. The recruiters are not really looking for trouble per se, they're just looking for warriors to join the next glorious invasion of Esrolia.

I have to point out this is very much my players' choice. They've consistently chosen to make their characters non-combatants and look for non-combat solutions to things. They really like the general strategy of using social skills to develop a political network, and then us HP to concretize the relationships. They're also having fun being goofballs, or I would suspect they'd want to take over a city.

crap, I stepped in it. Sorry. I really need to not post after 11PM my time. Be back in a bit with collected thoughts. sigh 😶

Now, as for culture.... that's a different kettle of fish than Castelein as a person. This post is only about the Manirian Tribes of the Trader Princes. I'm going to not going to opine about the Volanic Manirians, the Kaxtori, the Pralori, the Caratani, the Handrans, the Mraloti, the Alatani, or the Ramalians at the moment. Blood Over Gold had 2 broad cultures: Trader Princes and Wenelians. The Guide, OTOH, just has "Manirians" (though with some important subcategories). It's important to work out a coherent culture, therefore, which is primarily Orlanthi, but has a Western influence. According to the Guide, the Manirians are a type of Orlanthi culture with a "thin veneer" of Western culture, especially in the cities. We know they worship Orlanth and Ernalda, like most Orlanthi, but they also revere Mralot, Heler, Harand, and Entru. We know the Henotheism practiced by the Trader Princes and their philosophers view "Fair Exchange" as the First Action. Trader Prince henotheism, therefore, is not an element of daily life for most Manirians. From the POV of the average Manirian, gobbledygook about an "Invisible God" that is somehow "behind" Orlanth is nutty city talk. To talk about the Invisible God (whether it is called Malkion, Makan, Ashara, or something else) is a signal that you're Urban, which is a strange designation indeed in Maniria. I don't expect any ceremonies to the Invisible God in the hills, only in the Cities. Castelein is probably remembered as a weird Hero of Issaries, which probably is just fine with Castelein. And this highlights a core paradox: The Cities of Manirian are simultaneously the most cosmopolitan and provincial places there are. To be from a City in Maniria means you probably know or own things of Esrolia or Safelster, but you probably don't know the countryside off the Manirian Road at all. I'm sure strange people from many places end up hiding in the Cities. I don't think the Trader Princes have castes.

I'm going to be completely honest: Castelein's beliefs and magic are largely undefined. I am choosing, based on my personal preferences, to keep him primarily sorcerous in his orientation. I fully accept this is not the only way one could go, but it's how I want to go. The question, for me, is given that editorial choice on my part, how can I best "fit" Castelein into Maniria and Glorantha as it currently exists according to the canonical Guide & Sourcebook. More on culture & religion in next post.

So the Malkioni influence in Maniria, in your view, is basically a remnant of sunken Slontos?

Yeah, compacts with the Aldryami are definitely something limiting population growth in Maniria. Do we know of any other Gloranthan traditions of relics or dismembering the honoured dead? So, yeah, I'm willing to believe it's related to an Elder Race. I haven't completely decided what I want to do with Castelein and either the Newts of Ryzel or the Uz. Regarding the Uz, it is entirely likely that Castelein either descended to or returned from the Underworld via Ice Peak. Exactly how he got safe passage is unclear, but I assume a reference to Arkat is involved. And the Newts are also a complicated issue, because Palangio brought them to Maniria during the First Age... again, with little detail I can find. So, yeah... interrelated questions of what is Castelein's philosophy/sorcery, what did he do to get across Maniria, how did he die, and how is he remembered by the Trader Princes over the last 400 years. ...I need whiskey.