Nevermet

Oh, wow... Erenplose sank after Dawn? 😲 Yeah, the population of Maniria circa 1600 has sooo little to do with the people who lived there at the Dawn at this point. The flood of Prluftha (aka Herilia, Sweet City, Erenplose...), the Gbaji Wars, the Imperial Age's wars depopulating central & eastern Maniria, the Flood of Slontos.... societies keep getting squashed. And then settlement comes in, usually from the Holy Country or the West. At this point, I strongly suspect that, in addition to the scars the land has to its mythical landscape, the current inhabitants don't know half of what pre-Dawn powers exist on and within the land. Perhaps that's part of why the Pralori (and the Aldryami) are so powerful: they've been around long enough to remember. A Gazeteer of Maniria would have a lot of odd stuff with the comment of, "yeah, nobody knows WTF that is either." But on the Heler issue (still afraid to get into Heler stuff seriously yet), I agree that Helering heritage is just part of the mix now for the Manirians: Some have it, many don't. I'm also tempted to say that after Heler honoured Orlanth at Storm Mountain, the Helerings were absorbed into the Entrulings. Entru, the Son of Orlanth who forges a people out of refugees, former Mraloti, and Helerings... it has a ring to me.

This is one of those sagacious comments that can be dropped in many Glorantha discussions, I feel Also, I'm not awake enough to process that other post... wow. Glorious wall of text.

Also, I fully appreciate the depths of time here: Even if I'm correct (which I can believe I'm not), the Pralori have occupies the Elk Hills / Pralorela for almost 400 years, which means that its their traditional homeland in very meaningful way.

I keep coming back to this as one of the more striking revelations in thread thread (and I'm rather embarrassed I didn't read up on elk ecology before post, cuz... yeah). It also got me thinking, because I realized my memory of the historical maps in the Guide were more fuzzy than I thought. So, I checked them, and it turns out I REALLY misremembered the history of the Pralori: (Note: if it isn't cool that I pasted 6 sections of maps from a book, obviously I will delete them) So, how does this change my thinking? Soooooo many things: I completely misremembered and thought that the Elk Hills south of Lake Helby were an ancestral homeland of the Pralori. However, given this map progression, it would appear that Pralorela is a post-Flood culture, as that area was a central part of Greatwood. It makes me appreciate the amount of effort (and violence) the Middle Sea Empire must have expended to connect Ralios and Slontos. I'm aware that the Pralori are a nomadic people and are therefore likely found all over this section of Genertela, but I have a different appreciation that the Elk Hills appear to have only really been their "Home" after 1250. In fact, it would appear that the traditional lands of the Pralori in Maniria are Ryzel. (see year 700). I do not understand how this works. Though in fairness, I don't understand the Manirian Dragonewts at all. ...Not that I really have a handle on other newts either, I suppose. I wonder what cultural differences existed between the Pralori of Tanisor at the Dawn and the Manirian Pralori that dominated the Entruli. I'm assuming the Mralani in the NE of the map are supposed to be Harandings? I'm wondering if the big difference between the Entruli and the Harandings at the Dawn is that the Harandings were Entruli that were never conquered by the Pralori. Would I be right in thinking the Pralori and the Mraloti have rarely been allies? ...am I barking up any wrong trees here?

I like the distinction between evil & foolishness *JAW DROP* Love this I feel the Malkioni influences explain somehow why the Pralori can have an urbanized form. Really, I don't have many thoughts about your post beyond loving it and just running with it. So, uh, thanks?

Oh, there's so much here... Questions about the early 3rd Age The Vankthi Ogre Kingdom.I love the idea of an ogre kingdom which was quickly smashed. It feels like a campaign that was run by someone that made it into the actual history, in the best possible ways. I can imagine the ogres of Maniria "dream of Vankthi," meaning they dream of recreating a polity where they dominate as the rulers. Hermat I continue to be fascinated at the idea of a Hsunchen city. The fact the Pralori remain Hsunchen despite a lot of rather uncommon characteristics for Hsunchen is something I'm having fun with. The Noshain River I love the otters. Are the humans the Aulorings, or do the Auloring eventually meet with these people after fleeing ruined Gualal? The Spirit of the Marsh For no real good reason, I really hope this isn't a chaotic entity. I love it though Highwater This fills in a lot of history of Highwater, and its association with river cults may help explain why it was saved from the Flood. Also, it really changes the way I think about Highwater, as I was thinking about it as a bastion of Slontan Dronar which... does not seem accurate. I also love its relationship with Handra I will be quoting this again when I get to my inevitable Handra thread. THANK YOU

If I don't reply to the Heler stuff immediately, it's not that I'm apathetic, but there's a lot to process there.

"Something something Monster Empire Something" is likely the best wording, I agree

I love this because of how it breaks from the most fatalistic eternal return elements of Glorantha. My next question at this point would be did any Lunars realize what was going on, and how did they react adjust their strategies (if at all)

Yeah, this too. They'd know about Heler, but he's not central to their Tradition. Yeah, between this, the ubiquity of metal and other non-Hsunchen goods among them, and their reputation for military dominance, they seem.... different than a lot of Hsunchen. I'm not completely sure how to account for that. The simplest, non-magical answer is that they had success early on during Time, and they managed to defend a homeland for most of recorded time while being surrounded by more sedentary and technologically developed societies. I'm not sure if that's all.

Also, are there any other Hsunchen that use their animal as mounts, or is that unique to the Pralori? I can't remember

Where is the best place to read up on the Aldryami these days? Regarding Heler, I think that Heler is more or less a big presence for everyone in Maniria, the only question is how. I'm sure the Arstola Aldryami know them, as do the Ditali, the Caratan, etc. How do the Pralori know Heler? My guess is they view Heler with a degree of suspicion, even if he's not an enemy god. First he helped the flood, then the thunderer..... yes, water is life, but driving rains can cause floods too. So, he's a powerful god, worthy of respect and possibly propitiation, but he's not really on their "side."

Also, I didn't start my Manirian Scratchpads with Heler because while they are extremely important, they plug into the deep mythologies real quick. Compared to that, trying to make sense of Elk riders or a bunch of merchants hiding in walled villages is easy

I am shocked, SHOCKED that you're suggesting there are large gaps in the timeline of Maniria where important events must have happened!!! But yeah, the Pralori have had their ups and downs over the last 1600 years, but like everyone else. At the moment, I'm kind of assuming their power rose during periods that are often considered dark ages. (Before the Theyalans, the Gbaji Wars, after the Flood, etc). Also, the 3 or 4 centuries between the the Gbaji Wars and the Archduchy of Slontos must have been a wild, violent time in Maniria. Pralori, Lopers, small warring clans... I like the idea of the living museum idea, as it helps reinforce the horrible excesses of the Godlearners. The idea of "urbanized" Pralori is interesting. There's probably 2 kinds. In the first case, you have Pralori who stop being nomadic after they take over and likely stop being Hsunchen, which would be similar to what happened to the Basmoli in Basim, or the Mraloti who (I think?) became Harandings. The other option is they they create a "Vendref" model where they remain nomadic Hsunchen, but have a stable tribute relationship. The idea of the Dragonewts and the Pralori getting along is a fascinating idea. Also, the idea of uniting predator and prey in 1 body (BoG language about Pralori religion) sounds awfully close to a Nysaloran riddle. And perhaps Jubal was another "Urban Pralori" center, and that is why they were able to develop a trade relationship with Ryzel to get the best red dye in the world (tm). And yeah... the blue moon is gonna have some odd influences in Maniria through the Hero Wars... not exactly sure what yet Will post more later... love the Heler stuff.

Also, this thread isn't about Ralios, but I fully expect that as the Trader Princes run out of money and Safelster fills up with Arkats, we're going to see Pralori mercenaries helping some Safelstran city states.

Some preliminary comments and reactions to this. I am not wedded to any of this, and I may change my mind. Or not. Who knows? On the Maniria-scale, they're friggin' badasses. The Pralori are distinctive. A nation of militarily dominant Hsunchen to maintain control of their homeland for all time is pretty distinctive. Additionally, they remained Hsunchen, rather than, say, the Basmol clan of Basim who became merely human theistically worshipping the lion god. At the same time, they impose a toll on caravans and send out their warriors as mercenaries to all the Trader Princes. I almost want to use the term "vendref" to talk about how the Pralori view the Trader Princes. The Pralori maintain their pure relationships with the spirits of Elk and Wood, but also happily take a lot of metal and other objects from the caravans as a toll. It sort of is like getting to have your cake and eat it too. Nysalor? I really like the idea of the Pralorela being allied with the Palangio and the Bright Empire. I know Nysalor blessed the Telmori, so I could imagine another Hsunchen group siding with him. The fact they would be siding with him against the Entruli, the Herolali, and the heirs to the Theyalans who pushed the Pralori back into the Greatwood. This probably feeds into continuing tension between the Pralori and the surrounding societies, which they view as just so many #$%ing Arkati. The fact that Castelein was able to set up a ritual agreement is just that much more important since. Allied with the Lopers? The time between the defense of Kaxtorplose and the rise of Slontos must have been a crazy time for Western Maniria. 1050 was a very good year The Pralori were likely not happy when the Middle Sea Empire conquered their lands, and it likely would not been fully pacified when the Flood hit Slontos. At that point, however, I fully imagine the Pralori roared back. Elf-Friends? I am assuming that for much of history, the Pralori were on relatively good terms with the Elves. Pralorela was within Elven woods until the Middle Sea Empire connected Ralios to Maniria. I'm assuming a lot of stuff got clear-cut, and after the Flood, the Elk came back quicker than the Aldryami did. I suspect that the majority of Pralori will be fully in support of the Reforestation. A small minority, however, will like having metal and other trade goods given to them by the Only Two Legged Humans.

My previous Manirian Scratchpad thread focused primarily on the Trader Princes, especially their potential Malkioni influences. This thread will be about the Pralori, the Elk Hsunchen that mark the boundary between Ralios and Maniria. This first post is going to basically be a "lit review" where I summarize what I know or can find about the Pralori in Glorantha products. While interpretation is inevitable, the amount of extrapolation in this post will be minimal. Commentary beyond pure attempts at summary will be italicized. Here is what I know from the Guide to Glorantha and Blood Over Gold. Is there anything else from Glorantha I should make sure I read / know. I don't pretend to have a comprehensive uderstanding of the Hsunchen. The Guide to Glorantha (I am treating this as the hard parameters to work within) General Hsunchen Culture Chapter All Hsunchen are hunter gatherers Many Hsunchen believe they were once animals or have animal souls A core shamanic responsibility is help people reconnect with that spiritual heritage Hsunchen have no hereditary status; at least in principle, one's success in life is about their personal actions. Matrilineal extended family networks are the primary form of social structure Social structure mirrors their animal Law has not been formalized Raiding is common, full scale war is very rare. Religion focuses on great spirits, local spirits ,and ancestor spirits Maniria Chapter The Pralori conquered the Entruli that survived the sea's sinking of The Sweet City I THINK this occurred before the Dawn? The Vathmai / Theyalans "liberated" the Entruli in 115. They sell their services as elite cavalry to the Trader Princes During the Second Age, they ruled Gualal and they were allied with the Lopers They are viewed as proud, arrogant, vicious, and fearsome. Both their warriors and shamans have a reputation for being powerful. This chapter tends to frame the Pralori as villains. The Pralori collect a toll from the Trader Princes at Highwater, and Highwater is the primary place to find & hire Pralori mercenaries The Pralori have grown wealthy off caravan tolls While they are nomadic hunter-gatherers, they use bronze and other goods from "civilized" societies much more than most Hsunchen. A Praloran Serpent Dancer (Shaman?) kidnapped Castelein's half-elven daughter, who was then rescued by Stephon. The motivations here will be fun to unpack The (human) Pralori ride their elk Other Chapters Time chapter Maps suggest Aldryami controlled what is now Pralorela at the Dawn, with the Pralori being in control of what is now Ryzel and sunken lands. There was a brief period of time where the Middle Sea Empire controlled Pralorela, creating a continuous overland route from Ralios to Maniria within the GL Empire. Ralios Chapter Pralori are confused with the Alekki Moos People, Cuz Big Mammals with Antlers? Pralori are less secretive than most Hsunchen Blood Over Gold (potentially useful non-canon) Pralorela also has a Damali Deer People population Elk totems among Wenelians suggest virility, dignity, and sensing danger Their shamanic tradition comes from Desdoval Antlerman Rites of passage involve awakening the Elk within, and symbolically integrating hunter and pray into the one, human Pralori I have NO idea: Is the hunter-hunted unification a common trope among other Hsunchen? Pralori can become elk. The unit is the herd gender egalitarian, until there's a formal meeting, and then the dominant male stag has final say Each herd has a bachelor herd of unmarried, young, male warriors Goal: win acceptance into the herd proper, or capture enough women to start their own herd Pralori mercenaries and bandits are usually bachelors Each herd has its own territory Pralori wander well beyond Pralorela Saint Caselein originally set out across Maniria to acquire a "Falangian Diamond" as a ritual tribute to "The Iron Elk." This doesn't really make sense given what is in the Guide regarding Castelein and the Pralori The Pralori supported Palangio / The Bright Empire / Nysalor / Gbaji Bastis is presented as being allied to the Pralori The Pralori conquered the Entrulings during the Silver Age Castelein was a master of ritual gifting / trade, and this is how he got through Pralorela

Well, now I am..... you jerk

Oh, and mechanically, my players are getting the hand of the basic success & victory structure of rolling. They're all rather amazed that a game can be fun without it being combat oriented, which I'm amused at. I'm slightly worried they think next session they need to go into COMBAT MODE! and act like its a bland dungeon crawl event where the PCs must engage in mortal combat with The Enemy(tm), and both sides will slug it out until everyone on one team is dead.

Back in undergrad, gaming sessions were most of a Saturday. We'd start gaming a little after noon, and end around 11PM. As an adult, with 3 adult players, that's not really an option. So, sessions are now 2- 2.5 hrs, online. Fortunately, I realized before the 1st game that would mean I can cover much less ground in a session, and that I needed to figure out pacing for this capaign. I don't have the pacing down perfectly yet, but I'm getting there. Last week, the PCs told me what last night's session was supposed to be about: they were going to leave Selgos to investigate a small village that was partially destroyed by a berzerk spirit that was trying to kill an ogre (it failed). I knew they would go, and they would meet the Kolati shaman who lives near the village, and he would help the with understanding the ogres a bit more. I also knew that whenever things slowed down, there would be a threat of violence: the ogres know the PCs are around, and the PCs have already killed 1 ogre. It stands to reason the ogres are going to target them. The PCs, being PCs, are aware teh ogres are onto them,but haven't realized that means they are in danger, bless their hearts. Oddly, I've come to the conclusion the less I plan, the more fun everyone has, because I just react to what the PCs do. Anyway, on the way out of town, the healer remembered that the Conductor of the Donandari talked about a hill outside of town where a few weeks passed, there was weird music being played. So, on their way to investigate the village, they stop at the hill and investigate. They all roll profoundly mediocre scores, so I decide they (1) have a vague notion of a chaotic taint at the hill, and (2) they find a disorder rune burnt into the top of the hill. They surmise that bad rituals go on here. The healer has a fire spirit companion (that looks like a flaming terrier) that has the ability "agent of purification," so they sick the dog on the hill to try to destroy the chaotic taint. The spirit gets a minor victory, so I rule the hill has been damaged as a site of ritual magic for the ogres. I also tell teh PCs they can do more, but it would take the day. The PCs really want to get to the village, though, so they decide that's enough screwing up ogre ritual for now, and head out. They get to the village, and I ask one of the players to tell me its name. She wasn't expecting that, and stammered out, "Lilly of the Valley-Ville," and I just run with it, cuz thats the sort of game this is. It's not necessarily the campaign I planned on running, but everyone seems to like the light humour that pervades everything, so we go with it. They find the village of Valley-ville, and as they were told, half of it is a charred ruin. streaks of ash run up the hillsides. A cautious watchmen greets them as they ride into town. They ask where they can find the shaman, they tell them. They find the Kolati Shaman Windcliff, and they just explain everything very openly: They run a merchant caravan, they came to Selgos, they found a spirit that was cursed, and then it was killed. They then found out it was an anti-chaos spirit of some kind, summoned to kill an ogre, but it ended up destroying this village rather than the ogre. The shaman filled in some more bits: animals around the village were being slaughtered and mostly left to rot in the wilderness. Crops were being ruined. strangers were lurking in the wood, so the shaman contacted another shaman who had a reputation for rooting out evil. ...That shaman, unfortunately, summoned a spirit that destroyed the town, and no ogres were killed, even though the investigating shaman swore ogres were lurking. A bit more conversation happens, and they start to talk about ritual magic: What rituals could ogres do. The Kolati talked about 3 possibilities: (1) they erode the function of the law rune around the city, enabling lawlessness, (2) they summon the cacodemon to destroy the city, or (3) something he doesn't know about. The PCs realized the ogres have probably been behind the rash of alchemist robberies they've heard about, and they begin to Worry(tm). That night, the musician decided she would cheer up the town (and satiate her sentient instrument) by throwing a concert in town in the large, intact barn in the village. The concert goes well, and during the small talk after the concert, the watchperson ran in to warn everyone that there are riders in the night, watching the town. The PCs quickly realize they are probably the ogres (or their agents). They begin trying to figure out how to get the villagers out the barn and how to confront the riders, who have now started chanting and entering the village. Next week: We Fight.

I think I'll make another thread then.

BTW, I think I'm going to shift gears over the weekend, toward either Kaxtorplose or the Pralori. If I do, should I start a new thread or keep it all here?

Empires beget Empires. Argrath's Empire was a response to the Lunars, which were a response to the Carmanians, which were a response to Spol, which was a response to Nysalor & Dara Happa, etc, etc, etc. This has all happened before and it will all happen again. 😟

I think it's obvious I agree with you , but that's not a sufficient argument by itself.

More like ArQUACK, am I ri- *Killed horribly, mid-sentence*