Nevermet

As of the Guide, I take "Rokarism" to mean a post-Godlearner Makanism that actively tried to be traditionalist, bending the Makanism back toward (but not becoming) the Brithini, as it rejects Hrestol. So, editing down the Abiding Book, they have Solace and a more rigid caste system than the Middle Sea Empire had, and no Joy (the jokes abound). This goes to another point you raised, which is a tricky issue when talking about religion in both Glorantha and the real world: the public rarely perfectly subscribe to the careful and exacting doctrine developed by philosophers & theologians, instead coming up with their own local innovations and syncretisms. Similar to Joerg (maybe?), I'm seeing "Arkati" in this instance being less a direct link to Arkat, and more a shorthand label for "Henotheist from Ralios," where I take henotheist to not only mean the use of multiple magics, but a relatively coherent worldview where there is an invisible god behind the theistic gods of the runes. The more I get into this, the more messy it gets. The city of Drom and Helby are Galanini, matriarchal worhippers of the sun and horses. As such, I do not believe Ashara is an indigenous belief to Helby. I'm currently leaning toward thinking Castelein invented the School of Ashara, possibly after spending time in libraries or among cults elsewhere in the greater Safelster region.

Good point. The Ditali will likely get some military retaliation, while the Solanthi will be more subtly messed with. Heh... I'm now imagining the leader of Kithma / Thomble having delusions of granduer, believing it is their time to rise to dominance in Eastern Maniria.

Yep. Spol is all folk horror, all the time.

Leingod already covered the big pieces. In Blood Over Gold, The Trader Princes were heretical westerners who were a heretical sect that split from Rokar: they rejected castes, and they had a set of sacred texts that were about communication, ritual exchange, and change more than rigid laws. Culturally, they had a very "Italian city-state" feel in some ways, especially from the artwork. They were also culturally Western, but outside their cities were the Wenelians, who were presented as animist Orlanthi. They Guide's version of Maniria tones down the cultural distinctives a bit. Overall, the Trader Princes came across as more wealthy and powerful in BoG than they do in the Guide, and also less bronze age. IMHO, etc. A few key things, however, remain constant: First, while the Trader Princes appear to have a very commercialized understanding of wealth (more in BoG, but in the Guide also), Castelein the Traveller, the founder of the Trader Princes, was a master of ritual gift exchange as a way of creating agreements and alliances. And second, the Opening is presented as inevitably destroying Trader Prince society as we know it.

I will in a few hours

#2: The Castes of the Trader Princes From what I can tell, this is very much a "Blood over Gold" framing of the Trader Princes, which claims the Trader Princes and the Asharan Church are heretical offshoots the Rokari. Additionally, they are explicitly described as negotiators and fair brokers between Wenelian "rubes" (completely fair term, IMHO, for describing BoG Wenelians). (See BoG, P. 17) However, this gets heavily revised for the Guide. First and foremost, I don't think we can talk about the Asharan Church as a splinter-sect from the Rokari any more. Castelein the Traveller was probably from Helby, as the Manirian Road starts in Drom, and we know he started his journey to pay a tribute to the Prolori, arriving in Esrolia in 1170. I don't think someone from 12th Century Drom, east of Jorstland, would be a Rokari. And I also don't think they would be a promoter of castes, as the Arkati were not about castes, and the Middle Sea Empire wasn't big on them either. It is most likely that Castelein was always a henotheist, though an idiosyncratic one who viewed Issaries as the mask of God (kind of like how Idovanus was the mask for Carmanos). I'll write more later, but I think this is a very important point for Maniria: Castelein brought a henotheist faith to a group of Orlanthi who leaned heavily into animism, and a hybridizing occured.

There is too much in this thread for me to genuinely react to at this moment, but there are two things I want to touch on, as I feel they're probably very "immediate' for understanding the setting and what happens in the near future. I want to deal with Entru, but that's going to take study, especially given how many cataclysms reshaped the population of the area (To put in modern language, I suspect the DNA of current Wenelian tribespeople have more in common with Esrolia than Dawn Age Entrulings). And in general, I want to try to do as close of a reading as I can when it comes to the variant Orlanthi mythology of the Wenelians. I also feel like Ramalia is just gonna be a mood at some point, and I'm not in the mood at the moment. But things to talk about? #1 Esrolia For some reason, and I'm not sure it's justifiable, I had been working off the assumption that most of Esrolia's attention would remain focused on Argrath and the Lunars. That said, I agree that the Ditali are going to feel a lot of retribution from Esrolia. Staton is probably going to be the subject of a very nasty seige. A full march into the Solanthi lands of central Maniria, though, sounds like it would take a lot of effort for little reward.

As I said in my OP, Maniria is "my" Glorantha because of Blood over Gold. I realize it has some problems with sometimes having too much medieval art, having some continuity problems with teh Guide, and inventing another son of Umath, but darn it... its where I started

I have them, and they are well worthwhile. Especially for the Caratan stuff, since there is nothing on them elsewhere.

Oh, 1 thing I will say is that I'm going to try to develop a consistent hermeneutic, or interpretive strategy. The only part I'm sure about is that I'll accept the framework of the The Guide and the Sourcebook as canon, and then I'll take the Stafford Library stuff very seriously. Beyond that... people's opinions, published zines, etc.... I love ideas and debates, and I love seeing the different versions of Glorantha that can result. ok, i can't say anything worthwhile. 'night y'all

thanks Nick. Insomnia has allowed me to see this now, but not respond effectively. I appreciate everything.

I cannot brain more tonight, but I will respond tomorrow. I have thoughts.

Frustrations & Confusions with the cultures I need to get a handle on how different Wenelians are from more familiar forms of Orlanthu (Heortlings &Esrolians) Related to this is a discussion of how much "Trader Prince" is a distinct culture. From what I can tell, the Guide tries to claim "Trader Prince" is less a cultural label and more a label for the urban aristocracy of Maniria that is (1) connected to long-distance trade, and (2) engage in a more honotheistic version of religion than the "country" Wenelians. I'm imposing the category of "Veskarthi" to describe tribes in South-eastern Maniria that worship volcanoes like the Calandralanders. I'm also including the Maldros, taking them out of the New Coast, because based on the text, they would fit this category more than the New Coast.

Cultures of Maniria This is a non-exhaustive list of the various cultures of Maniria, organized into categories and subcategories. I'm not completely sure at what level I would put the "cultural keyword" at. For example, is a character's culture Wenelian or Solanthi? Eh... not sure yet. But here's my listing so far. As I count, there are 6 cultural "Families" in greater Maniria, according to the guide, and a total of about 15 distinct cultures at the highest level of detail. Wenelian (Orlanthi, with Western influence in many cities) Bastis (Trader Prince Cities: Highwater, Yolanda) Ditali (Trader Prince Cities: Staton, Saltcastle) Dokali (Trader Prince Cities: Bath) Solanthi (Trader Prince Cities: Ferry, Fort Digger, Temple Peace) Legrosi (Elfriends) Nimistori (Trader Prince Cities: Jaraz, Selgos, Jubal) The New Coast (Trader Prince City: Fay Jee) Hsunchen Pralori Mraloti Slontan Remnants The Old Families of Highwater Kaxtorplose Ramalia Alatan (I feel that culturally, Alatan and Smelch are likely more similar to the Ramalians than anything) "The Veskarthi (Accordnig to the Guide, these are culturally Calandralanders but politically independent) Pelushi Maldrosi The West Hillmen The New Fens & Handra (Combination of Slontan refugees and Ralian travellers following Handra Liv) Caratan

This is a thread for me to work through some of my ideas about Maniria in public so people can tell me when I'm going about things horribly. Why Maniria? I like Maniria for several reasons. First (and foremost, if I'm honest), I got into Glorantha right before Blood over Gold came out. As a result, Maniria is "my" Glorantha in a way other people may feel a fondness for Prax, Dragon Pass, or other places. Beyond that, there's a few other things that make Maniria fascinating to me. First, it is layers and layers of ruins from extremely disparate civilizations. The doomed Trader Princes, the Maniran Tribes, the Slontans, the Zaranistangi, The Bright Empire & Arkati, the Wenelians, the Entruli, the Pralori, the Helerings.... This is the antithesis of, say, Seshnela, Esrolia, or Dara Happa. Second, if the past is a mess, the future is too: Maniria is a Hero Wars Blind-Spot. To the east, Esrolia is involved in all the Agrath vs the Moon wars. To the west, the greater Safelster region gets sucked into the turmoil of the Five Arkats. But what happens to Maniria during the Hero Wars? Maniria is the antithesis of Sartar in this regard. The written material is relatively scant compared to a lot of Genertela: We know, most immediately, that Greymane manages to throw eastern Maniria into war... and then dies. We know the Elven Reforestation is a big deal in Maniria. We know that in about 2 generations the great flood comes. ...And that's it. We could plug Magasta's Pool with what we don't know about the future of Maniria. We don't know... ...who are what fills the power vacuum left by Greymane among the Solanthi, and Maniria more generally ...when the Reforestation occurs, and which humans survive, how. ...what happens to Handra though its talked about in somewhat heroic tones in The Guide. ... how Maniria, a land DEFINED BY FLOODS, reacts to another great flood. In a region with Elven magic, Helering magic, remnants of Blue Moon cults, and hidden Godlearner wisdom, it is reasonable to expect Heroes will try to respond to the flood. But how... who knows. ...how the Trader Princes try to survive without the Manirian road. ...what the Weartagi or the Wolf Pirates do to the coast, beyond "probably something bad." The Result is that Maniria is a massive and confusing pile of lego places, for gaming groups to assemble as they see fit. That's why I like it.

I also have a VERY vague idea of wanting to play a Bindle game right as Carmania declares independence from the Lunar Empire, but I don't even have a pitch.

As I'm in a Manirian frame of mind these days... After the Lion Greymane has died, leaving a massive power vacuum among the Solanthi. The party are either Wenelians of the countryside, or agents of the Trader Princes looking to bring order to the land in the name of Ashara. The Magnificent Party of Some Size The players are Ramalian revolutionaries plotting the fall of its despotic rulers. In addition to straight up combat, the players must forge alliances with Ramalian peasants, Mraloti, subversive nobles, and external groups willing to fund & support their efforts. There will be ideological conflicts over what comes next. Also, why do the Elves support the Ramalian ruling dynasty? The Reforestation Begins Almost overnight, an elder wood regrows over much of Maniria and the Elves proclaim their dominance once more as the Pralori act as their main human allies. How does your Wenelian village or Trader Prince city survive? Do you resist the Elves or accept their rule (with their rules of how to live in peace with the Forest)? Given that the fields and farms are now all forests, how will your community survive? The Blue Vision The Helering High Priest has a vision of the Third Flood. The PCs must scour the lands for magic that will help Maniria survive. The Helerings of rain, the Howlers of Lava, and the Highmen of Old Slontos must figure out how to weave their power together to somehow resist the Everise Tide. Scale against Brick The ancient, sorcerous city of Kaxtorplose survived the Vrok, and it survived the Slontan Flood. But after the Dragonrise, the Newts of Ryzel have become agitated and more alien than before. They marched on Jubal, burning it to the ground. And now they send emissaries to Kaxtorplose and their Wenelian allies, describing unspeakable rites they must perform or meet the fate of Jubal. What will the city do? How will the party save Kaxtorplose? And should they take the offer of help from the Vadeli merchants who have come by ship?

Thanks One of my players i the Caravan Calamity game has been playing a Skald who was travelling with the caravan. As I made the characters, I'm letting them edit them now that we have a scenario done and they now have a handle on the rules. The result: she wants an intelligent musical instrument that feeds off the psychic energy of crowds. The game is gonna get gonzo in the best possible ways.

I'd still like a consult, since 1 HP for a full-blown sidekick with 1 keyword and 2 abilities seems... cheap

I found a sentence saying, "If you lose a companion, you may create a new one without needing to spend a Hero Point.", which I guess implies companions are a single HP?

I'm trying to figure out how supporting characters during chargen. For most sorts, I'm fine with them being a single point, and I'd even be ok with contacts as one of the 5 breakout abilities, assuming they're related to occupation. I'm less sure what to do with companions. Do they also just cost 1 point? 2 points? I've read HQG several times, and I cant find a clear rule.

Yeah, Misapplied worship was a bit of a nightmare, and I didn't fully appreciate how much until I realized RQ characters were used to mixing and matching the 3 types of magic. I got into Glorantha through HQ1, and as a result thought the world was less.... magically jumbled than it often is.

The party looks like it's going to go to Selgos and get involved in intrigue regarding the 52 Tombs of Castelein... PLENTY of room in that for Cacodemon shinanigans

Thanks! And yeah, mainly I think I didn't make much that truly risky - they were rarely in danger, etc. Whether I express that more with extended conflicts or simple ones is a secondary concern.

Just want to apologize for not commenting at all. I'm reading, and enjoying following the thread but... I have nothing interesting to add 😕