Nevermet

This may be an odd question, but I'm curious and I'm pretty sure this is the right forum (as opposed to one of the specific game fora): Are all sorcerous grimoires written texts in Glorantha? Are there any cultures that have secret songs (for one example) that function as a grimoire, something one can study and gain insights into the impersonal forces of the universe, allowing the individual to cast a certain number of specific spells? A related question: in western, caste-based societies, how likely would it be for one to find, say, a donari who is basically a powerful sorcerer based in an exclusively agricultural school of sorcery? Or is it expected that Talari, Dronari, and Horali may know a couple of spells, but its always the literate Wizard Caste that bring the big spells in big books?

I've found a few blog entries by Ron Edwards, and I found a few videos of his on Youtube, but does anyone know if there is a text of the game anywhere, or if there is a timeline for it to be released? Is anyone else making or thinking of making a QW Supers game? I just thought I should ask.

Calamity Comes to Selgos, Session 1 Short version: I love my players, and this gloriously gonzo campaign. The Hook for the Session The player characters are going to Selgos to cash in the favours an aristocrat owed them. Also, one player has a magic item she wants to investigate. Before IC Play As my players are all completely new to Glorantha, I am dribbling out setting bits. This session had a few bits: An explanation of the Uz An explanation of Castelein An explanation that there are 52 total tombs with various body parts of Castelein. IMG, the Great Tomb of Castelein in Selgos contains the right hand and both feet of Castelein A discussion of the trade trying to shift toward the sea and Fay Jee, but friggin' Handra. This went too long (just over half an hour), and everyone was getting impatient, but they were also asking a lot of questions. My plan for the Session My goal was to set up a problem the PCs need to solve: The aristocrat that owes them favours is in financial dire straights To avoid bankruptcy, she has allowed recruiters from the warlord Greymane to set up shop at her vineyard just outside the the city walls of Selgos One of the PCs was branded a coward for not properly killing and pillaging in Greymane's last march into Esrolia The head recruiter's son is an obnoxious hothead, and he will cause violent trouble in town that may come back to haunt the PCs and their noblewoman ...that was my plan. What Happened: None of That The PCs also find out Greymane's men are in town, and none of them are big fans of a massive army, so they agree quickly they DEFINITELY need to make a ton of money to keep their noblewoman out of Greymane's pocket. The Initiate of Donandar offered to put on a benefit concert. They spend the day planning & promoting the concert The Ditali healer actively avoids Greymane's men while promoting the concert. He also finds out that herbs and alchemical components are being stolen from merchants in town. He does not know that these are ogres collecting things to summon the Cacodemon. The Merchant of Jubal rolls a COMPLETE VICTORY on trying to hunt down political gossip on the city, and a major victory for promoting the concert. As a result, I basically showed her the core relationship map of the NPCs. Also, I decided that since they are planning on holding the concert in honour of their noblewoman in the main plaza, I decided that the Greymane recruiters hold a rally in the plaza every night. I am explicitly leaning into what the PCs are asking for, and I am going to give them a Manirian Battle of the Bands. The Skald with the magical instrument plans the concert with the innkeeper who is allied with the noblewoman, Happy Steve. Upon finding out that she will be having competition, she marches over to the Greymane-aligned bar, announces her intention to hold a concert, and then rolls to try to show her stuff. She burns a HP to get a complete victory... using a magical instrument. This game is increasingly inspired by Tenacious D. And that was our short, 2.5 hour session. The game is goofy and glorious as my PCs scheme their way into being economic players in Maniria, and the Bard is actively seeking fame and fortune. Along the way, they're going to tick off Greymane's lieutenants, and confuse the current lord of Selgos, who is going to FREAK that his younger sister is apparently trying to endear herself to the public. I love how proactive my players are. They plow ahead, and make glorious messes that they totally own.

Which is interesting because magic is also the primary locus of invention from what I can tell. Metalworking was known at the Dawn, but in the last 1600 years, people have developed Heroquesting, developed various ways of hacking heroquests, invented a few ways to create gods, created draconic mysticism, etc etc etc. Magic in all its forms is the primary "technology" of Glorantha, and Argrath is (probably) going to help extinguish it, which is going to be bad for a lot of people (but maybe good in the long term, if one takes a particularly dour reading of Velortinian philosophy - Gods are never responsible for the world - as truth).

In my defense, I worded it as a dream

Another thing that is a key theme, at least for me, in Glorantha, is that it doesn't last. Empires will fall, and new great powers will rise, and they will fall again. The wheel of history will eventually crush it all. The greatest horrors in Glorantha are done by societies that believe they can break that cycle, that they will be different. (Mind you, there's plenty of horror to go around). On the "pig picture" level, Glorantha borders on fatalism. I'm tempted to say that the place where it isn't fatalistic is something Jajagappa said up thread: individuals can change things. However, in my current mood, that feels a bit too pollyanna. Glorantha is more likely to run off the adage that if a hero lives long enough, they become the villain.

Totally agree on all of this. Partly because it fits the information on the setting, and partly for aesthetic reasons, IMG, Maniria never becomes the site of truly massive battles. Gigantic armies belong in Dragon Pass or Sheshnela. The struggles in Maniria will take a different shape. There will be fights, of course. But Greymane's army is one of the last great armies in Maniria before the flood.

That;s enough for right now, but I need to work out more about how inheritance of titles & property works. Anything else in there make sense or seem like a bad idea?

I haven't really thought systematically about the areas beyond the Trader Princes yet, but I agree that Smelch is an enemy, as is Fay Jee. I'm assuming Ramalia will eventually get angry at it, but that's not as immediate. As for can Handra take Highwater.... it'd be hard. If that happened, it would require Bastis imploding for one reason or another, and Handra would need to hire a lot of Pralori mercenaries and promise a larger toll for a while. (Also, I really need to spend time on the Pralori, aka, the REAL human rulers of Maniria.)

I want to get back to Castelein & Asharan philosophy, but I need to prep for my game tomorrow night, so here are my current thoughts about Manirian cities. The Manirian city is treated as the territory of a "special clan," a Trader Prince clan. It is neutral ground for clan and tribe business, and foreigners are granted a degree of freedom and acceptance within the city and along the road (in the clan lands, well... you best have a reason, a GOOD reason, that you can explain quickly). Generally, TP Cities are organized into 3 wards called "Thirds": The Princely Third, the Manirian Third, and the Welcoming Third. The Manirian Third Each clan maintains a longhouse in the city, headed by a Matriarch. The City Matriarchs are the clan representatives to the Trader Princes, and they offer a safe lodging to any clan members visiting the city. There are almost always some clanspeople in a city, either working semi-permanently in a city, engaging in trade, or something else. Generally, the Manirian Third within the walls has the longhouses and key temples. Outside the walls would be secondary markets, farmlands, etc. The Trader Princes In most cities, the Trader Princes are an extended family comprising 1-5 distinct households. There are intricate rules identifying personal wealth and city wealth. Nominally, these laws are to prevent corruption, but they are often subverted easily. While the head Wizard of the city's Ashara College is usually a member of the ruling family, the priests of the various Orlanthi and local gods and spirits are a mix of clansmen and Trader Princes. One of the reasons for the cities being hotbeds of politics is that any adult Trader Prince, male or female, could be elected the next king or queen of the tribe. As a result, personal patronage of individuals to the outer clans is constant and often blunt. The Trader Princes work off a variant of the Manirian model, where women own the property, and men are administrators and judges. Thus, one generation you will have a Trader Prince King who is a famous lawspeaker, and next you will have a Trader Princess Queen famous for her vineyard. The Princely Third This is the portion of the city directly under control of the Trader Prince. It's often the highest portion of the city, often with artificial terraces and mounds for various people and functions. These are sometimes of stone, and sometimes of perishable materials. There is usually a court, elite residences, guest residences for dignitaries, and a complex for the city's standing army (a grandiose term for usually a few dozen mercenaries and thanes on loan from clans). (BTW, given the environment, my visual inspiration for a lot of the Manirian culture are the Missippian culture from pre-columbian North America:) The Welcoming Third This is the portion of the city for trade and travellers. This is where one finds markets, caravanserai, warehouses, etc. Rules vary, but generally strangers to a city are only allowed into the other Thirds if they have an invitation from someone who lives there. This has created a small business for "city guides" who sell their invitations and help travellers navigate the city geographically and socially. Guides range from expert ambassadors to manipulative con-men. The Walls Almost all Trader Prince cities have strong, impressive city walls, though their style ranges from Ralian to Esrolian, depending on geographic location. The main exception is Highwater, which still has most of its Slontan fortifications. Though not a Trader Prince city, the walls of Kaxtorplose are worth mentioning, as they are the strongest, most alien walls in the region, as they were built by Kaxtor using earth sorcery. Beyond the Wall Outside the walls of the city are the Trader Prince "estates," the agricultural lands directly controlled by the Trader Princes. They are worked by a combination of thralls, Manirian cottars, and even some foreign indentured servants.

As I said elsewhere, this is what I expect a Pralori to look like Also, I like the Mastery within Spirit rune tattoo or body paint.

I live to serve

The Guide is pretty clear about a few things regarding the Trader Princes and their relationships to the Manirians: The Trader Princes and their cities are an institutionalized part of Manirian society: "The City" is where you go to make inter-clan negotiations, and engage in commerce with the world beyond Maniria. A king in Maniria is less like Guilmarn, and more a "chief mediator" between clans. Of course, combining that with commerce means they wield a lot of influence. They're less despotic and exploitative than they are corrupt and manipulative. The most powerful Trader Princes control the clans through a complicated web of patronage, favours, and outright bribery. The most loved Trader Princes are the ones who really seem to be a genuine arbiter between clans. The most short lived are the ones who make promises and threats they can't afford, like whoever lead the Solanthi before Greymane.

Yeah, while the Guide says iron is a major good on the Manirian Road, it would be so much easier to sail to Seshnela, and the Elves are definitely part of why.

This exactly mirrors my thinking, to the point that I'm almost irritated that nobody will believe I had the idea independently

Honestly, that sounds about right. EDIT: and thanks for the book suggestion

Yes, clean dishes are important Sadly, I do not know Kojeve at all. And I don't have my thoughts in order about what happens to the Trader Princes. The short version: Chaos vs. Helerings vs. Neo-Entrulings vs. Glorantha Socialists. As for Dormal, I could believe any of those options.

Ok, back Regarding trade, according to the Guide, the Manirian Road was primary about luxury items, so I suspect that it was very vulnerable disruption on either end. So, I suspect the Trader Princes have risen and fell several times. So, the boom times were great, and then things go bad for a while. As far as pressures limiting the population, even before the Godlearners started mucking around, Maniria never seemed to easily support a large population. The parts that did (The Wenelian Penninsula and the Slontos Coast) are now underwater. Scott is 100% right that there are probably a lot of pacts about clearing land, especially around Sweet Valley, Tall Castle, and all of Bastis. It makes complete sense that the Elves (and the Prlalori by extension) extended their power in Maniria after Slontos sank. Regarding the Goddess Switch, something I kind of like is that the Manirians are caught in a double bind: the Elves can "heal the land," but doing so means it is a forest and not suited for agriculture. I did the math. Both Maniria and Esrolia have roughly 10% of their human population in urban centers, so I can't really argue that there's a cultural difference in how much they prefer cities. There's just fewer people.

Scott posted while I was posting... will think while I clean dishes and be bac klater

I also think that the Trader Princes are poor heirs to their founder, as they seem more defined by profit than peace through communication, change through equal exchange, so I suspect I'm going to eventually have fun filling in the timeline from 1170 (Castelein arrives in Rhigos) to 1580 (Dormal arrives in Handra). Humans being humans, there was at least one attempt to unify the Trader Princes in that time.

Yeah, Goddess Switch plus Trickster college. Hard to make thriving cities when there's a limit to agriculture combined with magical forces that discourage order.

yep... something I didn't write but thought of was how east-west trade is being replaced (at least in western Maniria) by North-South trade.

Sorry - white are trade routes that are not considered "The Manirian Road," the trade networks controlled by the various Trader families and cities. So, trade controlled by Handra, the Volcanic Tribes of south east Maniria, sea trade, etc. As for size, you're of course correct that Maniria is much smaller than, say, central Asia. It's just that, even for Glorantha, it seems a bit off to talk about a trade route that was wildly profitable* for the elites who controlled it for 400 years, yet their cities never get larger than 5K, and the average size of a Trader Prince city is about 2,700 people. * Until that jerk Dormal came along...

No substantive posts for a few days, but out of curiosity, I tied to put the trade routes into the map, circa 1420. A few notes: I don't believe this was the exact route Castelain made, but its close Greymane is following the Manirian Road into Esrollia. He's the Anti-Castelain, and I'll need to contemplate the mythological consequences of that It has been adjusted by the Opening slightly as Fay Jee became more important I don't think the Trader Princes and Castelein's religion are particularly influential in the West Hills, as there are no mention of Trader Princes being from there. If Handra was expansionist, it'd want to take over Highwater There is a WHOLE lot to unpack about the Fort Digger to Gemborg trade, as we know the trade route exists, but no more info. I'm not entirely sure the "Modern" Manirian Road does much of anything with Trolls, other than avoid them and pay them off. Ramalia and Kaxtorplose are both pretty inward-focused, but they have to be part of the trade network somehow. This isn't about that map, but wow the Trader Prince cities are TINY the Trader Prince cities are. The Silk Road cities were much larger, and I would imagine more population (not just culture) would immigrate from both Ralios & Esrolia.

It's not talked about much... A quick-ish text search... here are the mentions of mines, mine, miner, miners, and mining in both volumes of the Guide not related to Mostali: Fronela Copper Mine Valley Enneserah Kralorela Saresangk Maniria Saltcastle (salt only) Thanor (Now Sunk) Peloria Brass Mountains (implied?) Prax Troll Mine Ralios Lartuli East Isles Yevannava Fonrit Salonmanad Jolar The Exigers Umathela Nemb Hills Silubra Mountains