Nevermet

This post will be my notes on Kaxtorplose in the Second Age. The vast majority of this post is conjecture, as there is so little written. Post Arkat Period: 433 - ? After two generations, the Gbaji Wars had ended in Maniria. The lands healed, and the people returned to ways they knew: small clans and tribes that occasionally fought with one another. During this period, Kaxtorplose was defined by systematization and isolation. Kaxtorplose's beliefs and ritualized were based on the life and teachings of Kaxtor and on the cultures. The result was an eccentric honotheistic faith. In some ways, it mirrored Arkat's Stygianism in Ralios, though the elemental focus was on Earth rather than darkness. Kaxtorplose played a diplomatic role in easing initial tensions when the Uz arrived to claim the land around Ice Peak, a grant from Arkat. This eroded relations between Kaxtor and many of its neighbours. While there was little open hostility, Kaxtorplose was viewed as an group of untrustworthy ex-Entruli hiding in impregnable walls. Also, during this period, Kaxtorplose set up several agreements and understandings with the Dragonewts, acknowledging each other's rights to lands. Kaxtorplose's few allies in this period included Lukae, and the Praloreli city of Hermat. They also maintained contact with the distant Stygian Empire. This was also a period of increased "Malkionization" of Slontos. Loper Wars: ? - 805 The balkanized period was destabilized by the arrival of the Loper people, fierce warriors whose raids terrorized Maniria. [I have tried, but I cannot find a start date for the Lopers coming to Maniria. If anyone has any thoughts, I'm all ears - N] Kaxtorplose's master architects were hired communities across Maniria to design and built fortifications. It was a dark and violent time. It was one thing if a neighbouring tribe stole some cattle, but the Lopers would burn and pillage without remorse. Their actions were spread over a wide area, and just as local communities had begun to rebuild, they were pillaged again. Eventually, the situation became intolerable. "In 758 the city-states of Slontos allied with the Middle Sea Alliance to expel the Zaranistangi invaders. A brutal war followed until the utter defeat of the Loper People in 805 by Svagad, the Emperor of Land and Sea." (GtG: 352) The Middle Sea Period: 805 - 1050 After the military defeat of the Lopers, the Middle Sea Empire's influence in Slontos grew, both politically and religiously. Kaxtorplose was willingly annexed into the Archduchy of Slontos, within the Middle Sea Empire. The sophisticated materialist philosophies of the Godlearners won over the wizard-priests of Kaxtorplose. Treatises were written up acknowledging the importance of Kaxtor, and accepting the distinctive rites of the Kaxtori Wizards. At the same time, Kaxtorplose was never a central hub. It was too associated with Arkat to be doctrinally trustworthy, and the Masters of Kaxtorplose spent most of their political power controlling their library and resisting becoming test subjects. Just a few years after Kaxtorplose's annexation, the Duke founded the White Room School, a sorcerous college that was ideologically and methodologically at odds with Kaxtorplose. While no longer truly henotheists, the Kaxtori nevertheless continued to hold an Arkati notion of "respect" of magic and magical entities. The White Room insisted "respect" was always half way to "worship," and that true materialist philosophy must move beyond the personas of gods and spirits to manipulate the rune-based forces that allowed the gods to exist in the first place. The Kaxtori rebutted that respect was an element of understanding those forces, but quickly realized they were in a politically precarious position, and became silent. The Goddess Switch lead to severe internal tensions within Kaxtorplose, with some burned as heretics. The Masters of Kaxtorplose was now installed by Slontos, rather than someone from the city. Members of the Trickster College and the Zistorites finally gained access to Kaxtorplose's libraries. By 900, Kaxtorplose had been socially and politically assimilated into Slontos. The Archduchy of Slontos remained in power after the Closing through blunt force. As it clamped down, revolts and unrest increased. Some fled for the hills of Ryzel, believing they had a better chances with the Dragonewts than the Archduke. Generally, they were wrong. In Kaxtorplose, a secret society emerged called the Domists, committed to venerating Kaxtor in the old ways. It was stamped out several times by Slontos, but kept coming back. When the Luatha broke Seshnela, panic swept Slontos. The Domists took more power in Kaxtorplose and began to act in public. When Slontos sank, the flood abruptly stopped just south of Kaxtorplose. The Kaxtori today claim it was because of their renewed piety and the ritual sorcery of their leaders. Some detractors suggested it was due to their proximity to the Dragonewts, and were accidentally saved when the Newts protected themselves from the flood.

Thanks for reminding me about the lack of a "bright line". I also agree that the religious tensions that I described in my first option are not the most likely. And you're right that you outline a 3rd option, and I need to think about it more.

Klaus definitely was mad and self-important enough to be a Gloranthan hero

I think that when we see references to Palangio's Krjalki, it should be read as "Newts and Chaos monsters." (IMHO, IMG, YGMV, etc, etc, etc) The Elves were very well known to humans, and I get the feeling that the Entruli wouldn't have lumped them in with a Western category of monsters," given they followed a Land Goddess and, at least in some depictions, an Orlanthi god of wild animals. Additional, IIRC (?), the Malkioni were least likely to apply "Krjalki" to Elves out of all the Elder Races. Additionally, by taking the Ryzel Hills, the Dragonewts would probably have strategic control of the Tigrionor and its tributary the Skontor. Now, the idea that there were multiple waves or forces with different leaders? I can completely believe that, beginning with Arbaga the High, then the Governor of Wenelia killed by Iridwin the Diver, and finally Palangio. As for Aldryami support for the Bright Empire, my understanding is they were relatively supportive, but I'm fuzzy on that. There doesn't seem to be a lot of explicit references to Aldryami warriors in Palangio's ranks, from what I can tell.

This isn't perfectly on topic, but taking an idea from Jeff, here are some size comparisons for Maniria:

Also, it's a refuge for Tarsh Exiles, dispossessed anti-Lunar Tarshites. I can't imagine they're a particularly welcoming lot, even to Sartarites. And for that reason, I also doubt there is a monetized pilgrimage there. And that bloodthirsty attitude interacts quite well with Maran Gor, and they may lean into it a bit. I would not be surprised if there are pro-Lunarite men who get sacrificed on occasion.

Exactly You understand my fascination 😊🧐

Sorry I wasn’t clear: Arbaga was an early ally of the Empire of Light against the local polities. Also, what I can tell / IMG, the Uz of Ice Peak came to Maniria later, with the peak given to them by Arkat.

Yeah, I was wondering about that also. As far as I can tell, the only 2 locations with the suffix -plose are, as mentioned above, Erenplose and Kaxtorplose. As such, I think it’s meaning must be more unusual than just “polity.” My current feeling is that it is from late 1st Age language meaning something like “enveloped” or “surrounded.” Erenplose is enveloped in a pocket of air to protect it from the water that surrounds it, and Kaxtorplose is enveloped in stone to protect it from the Bright Empire. but this is just conjecture

Completely plausible, yes

Last one before I got to bed. I have another, even more whacky one, but I'm not awake enough to try to lay it out. How does a demigod son of the Good Earth and an Entruli hero become a Malkioni ascended master?!? This is, in my opinion, a mess. Or more accurately, a void. There's so little to build on to connect A ("Kaxtor is the son of Fodalor and Esrola") to B ("Kaxtor is revered by Malkioni for over 1,000 years"). I'm currently debating between 2 options: Fodalor is a wannabe Froalar. Froalar was a Talar who had a child with a land goddess to produce the dynasty of Serpent Kings. It is not beyond question that Fodalor attempted something similar with Esrola rather than a land goddess. Perhaps he was trying to create a dynasty, or perhaps he wanted a distant protector like The Only Old One. In this scenario, Fodalor was exiled, not because the King of Herolal was too aligned with Dragon Pass, but because Fodalor was a Malkioni. Malkioni religion and sorcery was present in Slontos before Arkat arrived, and it appears Veakmal brought it when he conquered south-eastern Ramalia in 145. At this point, Kaxtor is destined for... something. The son of a Herlaning Malkioni and a goddess of Earth? It's almost like he was a reverse engineered Mostali. No wonder he created walls that could withstand Palangio. Kaxtor: Convert and Sorcerous Anchorite I don't have this one as worked out While it is possible that he was a Malkioni, it is more likely that Fodalor was either as a Lightbringer Orlanthi or an Entruli. The point of all this is that Kaxtor was a demigod born into some version of Orlanthi culture. We also know that Kaxtor's early life was probably rough Fodalor was exiled from a kingdom that implodes from civil war. Worse, it appears Fodalor did not win the civil war: we never heard about him again. The possibility that Kaxtor was born to be a weapon in that civil war doesn't make anything better. Kaxtor, sick of all this, turns his back on the impossibly unstable polities of Maniria. It would be reasonable for someone with Kaxtor's biography to conclude the 1st Age Orlanthi were a frustrating lost cause Unreasonable result: He converts to the Malkionism of Veakmal, which is probably a version of Hrestolism He then becomes an ascetic, focused on understanding the material forces of elemental earth. He then builds a holy complex to study, where he lives in seclusion until the outside world (Palangio) demands his attention. Kaxtor thus becomes a reluctant hero

Q: Who make pilgrimages to Kaxtorplose? A: Arkati from Ralios, who view Kaxtorplose’s liberation as a major event. Kaxtor, by extension, is praised as a hero who was able to wait for Arkat. In addition to the Ralians, I could imagine some pilgrims from Handra, Highwater, and on rare and disturbing occasions, Ramalia. Generally, I would imagine the pilgrimage route to either go south to Handra and then east to Kaxtorplose, or east through Trader Prince territory and then down the Tigrionor. Q: How to deal with the different dates between the Guide and History of the Heortling People? A: 401 is the year where the Bright Empire has hegemony over the region, even if there are a few hold outs like Herolal and Lukae. Also, it makes sense that Wenelia rebels against Herolal, as it was the most "Theyalanized" area due to colonization. Q: Who are the Krjalki of Palangio’s army? A: At first, almost exclusively Dragonewts. However, chaos was called in during the Siege of Kaxtorplose. It seems to be how the Bright Empire works: Chaos horrors are the last result to ensure victory. Q: What does it mean to be an Avatar of the Invisible God? A: I'm currently assuming it means that Malkioni view Kaxtor as an Ascended Master. Here's the description of what it means to be an Ascended Master from the Guide: Q: How does Kaxtorplose resist the siege for so long? According to the Guide, Kaxtor is a demigod, and according to the History of Heortling Peoples, he was able to envelop his entire temple complex in towered walls before Palangio attacks. Also, as the son of Esrola, I suspect they had a magical ability to produce food. So, we're dealing with a city with magically produced walls and sacks that fill with grain every night. Laying siege to that is going to be difficult, even for our pal Palangio Q: How do we make sense of Arkat’s attacks? A: Despite being closer, Wenelia was a early hotbed of Nysaloran support. Instead, he attacks western Slontos, which I interpret as Veakmal, the Herlaning lands that has Western influences since Veakmal son of Lalmor re-conquered it in 145. I interpret the Battle of Stenentos as a battle where Arkat’s forces join up with local anti-Nysaloran forces against local pro-Nysalor forces. Next Post: My Wild Speculation and filling in the gaps

Ok… here we go. This is my scratchpad on Kaxtorplose. The City that Does Not Fall. As is My Way, the first post in this thread will most be lit review, identifying what we know from various canonical and canonically-adjacent sources on Glorantha. A second post will be a few mild interpretations. EDIT: Oh, I forgot to answer a question: WHY DO I CARE? My answer is simple: Kaxtor is a demigod who resisted Palangio and the Bright Empire for 3 solid years before Arkat shows up, but who disappeared without a trace. Meanwhile, his temple-city has survived with continuous occupation for about 1,200 years. In that time, not only did it survive the Iron Vrok, but it also survived the Lopers, getting absorbed by the Middle Sea Empire, the sinking of the Middle Sea Empire, and the opening. It is a glorious enigma. Also, here are some abbreviations: BoG: Blood over Gold GtG: Guide to Glorantha HotHP: History of the Heortling People MSE: The Middle Sea Empire So what is known about Kaxtorplose in the Third Age? Kaxtorplose is a small city organized around a temple to Kaxtor, a hero worshipped here since the 1st Age (GtG: 361). The Kaxtori view him as “an avatar of the original and supreme God beyond the world of illusion” (GtG: 361), and it is a pilgrimage site for Malkioni. It also has maintains an ancient library, with texts going back at least to the Flood, if not earlier (MSE: 44). Its identity focuses in part of being the rightful seat of whatever remains of the Church of Slontos (BoG: 121). However it is also relatively isolationist, with most of its trade ties coming through Handra (BoG: 119). What is known about Kaxtorplose in the Second Age? Almost nothing, other than it was part of Slontos, and its temple to Kaxtor remained (GtG: 351). It managed to survive the flooding of Slontos, something no other city outside of Ramalia did (with the possible exception of Bemelor, as Jubal is in the same location). What is known of Kaxtorplose and its founding hero in the First Age? Fodalor & Herolal Once upon a time, there was a kingdom called Herolal. Herolal rose from the ashes of the Herlaning kingdoms created by the Theyalan Vathmai who came to Maniria. Despite Herolal being Entruli, it remained in contact with Dragon Pass. By 200 ST, it was the dominant polity in Maniria (GtG: 352). All was not well in Herolal, however. In 315, its greatest champion, Fodalor, was sent into exile after a feud with the Herolali King. By 320, Dragon Pass no longer had communication with Herolal. The Birth & Life of Kaxtor There is little canonical detail on Kaxtor. We know he is the son of Fodalor and Esrola. Esrola, as many know, is the Goddess of Good Earth, and she has many protector-husbands. They include Heler, Elmal, Argan Argar, and Faralinthor. (SKoH: 153, GtG: 687) Fodalor, on the other hand, was the great champion of the First Age city of Herolal. We know that there was a Temple of Kaxtor that existed by 429, and that it was roughly 40 miles west of Herolal. Finally, as mentioned above, at some point, Kaxtor came to be viewed as an avatar of the Invisible God. I will be getting to my thoughts on Kaxtor in a few posts. Palangio Conquers the Entruli In 370, the Entruli Fodluth, son of Arigor became king of Herolal. (HotHP: 79). It is implied that he was a capable ruler, but his reign was hardly peaceful. In 378, a plague came to Maniria (HotHP: 97). As with Ralios, Nysaloran missionaries soon came after the plague with promises of a cure. In 387, Pro-Nysloran forces create a rebellion on the Wenelian Peninsula against Herolal. In 401, the Bright Empire conquers Slontos under command of Palangio the Iron Vrok (GtG 352). In 408, the territory controlled by Herolal, is consquered by “Krjalki” who came down the Tigrionor River (HotHP: 97). King Fodluth is killed. [I am aware these dates are a mess, and that the Guide's dates take priority.] It does not appear Maniria was completely pacified, however. In 411, Iridwin the Diver leads a revolt against the Bright Empire, wielding items of power he brought back from Erenplose (HotHP: 97). Palangio returns to the region in 413 with an army of Krjalki. By 417, the entire region has been re-pacified, and Iridwin is killed by Palangio. Kaxtorplose, Palangio, & Arkat In 429, another rebellion begins, this time in Lukae (HotHP: 98). The rebels quickly flee Lukae to the North, taking refuge in the Temple of Kaxtorplose. Palangio and an army of Krjalki lay siege to Kaxtorplose (HotHP: 98, GtG: 352). Kaxtorplose survives the siege for three long years. In 431, Arkat (now an Orlanthi) lands in western Slontos. In the Battle of Sardrandos, he defeats all of western Slontos, and in the battle of Stenentos, Slontans kill each other (HotHP: 35). This all comes to a head in 432, at the Battle of Kaxtorplose. Arkat defeated Palangio and liberated Kaxtorplose, with the help of Hendrik who made a Great Leap. (HotHP: 35) That is, as far as I can tell, the full literature on Kaxtor and Kaxtorplose. If I missed something or misrepresented something, as always: please let me know Next post: some basic interpretations

I am now writing up my notes on Kaxtor & Kaxtorplose. If I'm lucky, I'll be done with it this weekend, and I'll post it as a new Manirian Scratchpad.

Completely agree. However, I would argue that the cosmology of Glorantha would create more of an "anchor" or "center of gravity" for repetition of religious ceremonies in the setting than what exists in our reality. ....hmm. Now that I wrote that, I'm less sure lol

Because of Heroquesting and magic more generally, I suspect 3rd Age Glorathans have a better handle on (some) pre-Dawn events than things that happened 500 years ago.

Well, yes 🤣 The Volior is definitely a boundary, though. Most of Maniria, I would argue, is a "boundary space", with its western edge starting at the Tigronior in the Second Age, but extending to the Noshain river system after the Flood.

I wouldn't say that the idea that the Ryzel Newtlings got along with the Slontan groups is surprising to me, but it never occurred to me. I missed his comment on Jadnor. I assume it is somewhere in the FB group? Also, my take on Kotorland: it probably has a very sparse population of remnant Haranding and Entruli groups. They were probably semi-nomadic, as any settlement would have been taken over or destroyed by Esrolia or Slontos. Countless battles and skirmishes between those 2 powers probably happened in Kotorland, but the Kotori probably had some trade with both sides, and as a result there was probably was indirect trade and interaction between Esolia & Slontos. The alternative notion, that Kotor was a demilitarized zone devoid of human life save for armies marching into or away from battle, seems very unlikely to me. As the survivors, the Kotori spread through most of Maniria, and a few generations later they come into contact with a weird Hero-Traveller from Ralios.

Human beings since the Dawn have been very creative in how they understand, organize, and re-organize myths and magical forces to apply them to their immediate situation. Glorantha is a world is with a relatively stable cosmological infrastructure, and people can invent more applications the more of those infrastructures we understand. Heroquesting is an application of knowledge of how myth works and breaks into the world of time. Consequently, I think we can talk about both discovery and invention in Glorantha. It occurs to me that my wording here is very Malkioni, but I wouldn't say it's wrong, and I suspect other approaches to myth & magic would say similar things.

This, of course, gets weird, because heroquesting wasn't "invented" yet. However, I am quite sure that many heroes in the 1st age had disturbing dreams or fantastical adventures that Could Not Be or religious rites that became "extra".

I love how thick the web of culture & history is for Glorantha.

Thanks, this thread has been extremely helpful to me. For various reasons, I feel it fits better for Fodalor to have some sort of heroquest that results in the birth of Kaxtor. but thats IMG, YGMV, etc, etc, etc.

Completely unrelated to my original question, but is Androgeus associated with Jernotia?

Thanks for that. Hmm... I will need to think about that

The idea of heroquests intrigues me, as do the idea of a High Priestess acting as Esrola. And yeah, the rules seem to be a bit different for an apotheosized human, or a demigod who continued to be active after the Dawn. For my specific case, the information is extremely scarce. Mostly, I'm ok with that, because it means I get to have Opinions(tm). However, as a hermeneutrical strategy I want to know how much I am being faithful to "canon" so deviations can be very intentional. Here's what we know: By 200, the kingdom of Herolal was the dominant force on coastal Maniria. In 315, it's "Greatest Champion", Fodalor, is exiled over a feud with the King. Sometime between 315 & 429, a temple complex is built named Kaxtorplose This is named after Kaxtor, son of Fodalor and Esrola By the 3rd Age, the residents of Kaxtorplose view Kaxtor as an avatar of the Invisible God And that's it. Guide to Glorantha, the Stafford Library, Blood over Gold.... I current have no other "cannonical" or "semi-canonical" information about either Fodalor or Kaxtor. Based on that, here are my safe assumptions / interpretations: Fodalor was some sort of Orlanthi, broadly defined. Entruling, Theyalan, etc. Fodalor was very powerful, but not king for some reason Two of the few things we know about Kaxtor are that he's a son of Esrola, and the walls around his temple kept Pelangio out. I have a lot of half-formed thoughts, and some of them will click together once I get this question either answered or I decide to assert an answer.