m0n0cular

Great stuff, thanks

Very interesting, and something I didn't realise at all. Who were the third party?

I used the reed boats of Lake Titicaca for inspiration when I ran the Troubled Waters scenario, and I also based a marsh community in the New Bog on the floating villages on the lake. There were a couple of ceremonial double hulled boats, one was a temple and the other served the village headman.

The assault on Karse from Corflu in 1619 must change things a lot from the condition of Corflu when the Wolf Pirates visited in 1615, and must also change the nature of trade on the river significantly. I imagine a big Lunar shipbuilding program that seems out of step with the reality of Corflu's poor status and a ramping up of military presence there that may also appear odd to those wondering why so many troops are needed to garrison such a small port. I also imagine quite a lot of arms and armour going downriver to be stockpiled in Corflu. Of course, that would draw a lot of attention. In my game, the Empire leverages Corflu's position as the only Lunar route to the sea to build up trade through the port of goods from Sartar, and those goods - particularly wool - hide a lot of things they would rather keep quiet. There are those in Corflu with their suspicions, but few brave enough to ask why so much goes into storage instead of onto ships. All of those things will have added to a Lunar presence on the river that's already increasing with the Grantlands resettlement program. Oslirian and other foreign ways will clash with local worship and customs, and increased banditry by refugees from the wars in Dragon Pass may make river travel more perilous.

Yes, that's the situation in my game too. I play it as the escape route that Torath Manover and the other Sartarite Orlanthi of Trilus used to get to Balazar, and it's still being used as conflict continues. Despite its dangers the alternative route through Tarsh is a tad too red for desperate refugees from Imperial conquest to take.

Another interesting observation. Taking that on board, I might retrofit that the ritual Joh Mith enacted in my campaign was one that's already well known to the elder races who can pass through. But something forgotten by humans since the Dragonkill. By the way, thanks to those of you pitching in with thoughts and ideas on this. They're making me think and really helping me shape the place much better. Of course, once it's really fleshed out I just hope my PCs don't decide to travel to Dragon Pass through Tarsh instead!

Access to the pass is limited in my Glorantha too, and the mountain/weather scenario is certainly contributory to playing out a crossing. In fact, one of the things which drew me to creating a perpetually hot crossing high in the the mountains was that it would be inaccessible for a good deal of the year due to prevailing conditions on its approaches. So those snow and ice demons surround it through the long, harsh winter but the pass has its own micro-climate which sees it populated by strange, isolated terrors. Perhaps I was just too fond as a kid of 'The Land That Time Forgot'! Good point, and one I've taken on board as people have pointed out the pass takes its name from being actually too high for wyrms to reach (I'd somehow missed that reference when researching the pass ). So are there wyrms there or not? Now tall stories and rumour start coming into play - only made less believable by the strange weather conditions that people tell of being there. And of course YGMV, so my vision of the pass could be little more than the ravings of a madman in another Glorantha! Great idea. Perhaps put something there that they travel that far west for?

Yes, you're definitely right there - rereading Griffin Mountain makes it clear they are trolls. Yes again - I like this more than my suggestion of Lodril's influence. A good mythical reason for the pass being hot is something I've been casting about for. Some of the photos of Lassen are very evocative of what I envisage, the Painted Dunes for instance but hemmed in by precipitous cliffs and replacing the patchy trees with some odder flora native to the pass.

What do we know about Wyrms High Pass? I haven't found a great deal of information about the pass, although I realise I may just not have found stuff in sources I've got, so I've put a few tentative ideas together based on the snippets I'm aware of. @Jeff Richard's session at the Kraken last year on creating Gloranthan places was very useful - unfortunately I don't think it was filmed, but its essence was to pull together what is known or inferred about a place from Gloranthan sources and use them as building blocks for creation of both the place and its adventurous potential. This is preferable to initially looking to real world examples and basing a place on them as you run the danger of creating a sense of space or culture that is too derivative rather than firmly rooted in Glorantha. (Jeff - I hope I haven't got this too far wrong!) Anyway, here goes with a few thoughts: Name: Wyrms High Pass So, there are wyrms there. From Anaxial's Roster I gather that wyrms thrive in warm or hot conditions, so I'm positing a pass that is heated by volcanic activity with hot springs and rocks covered with strange coloured deposits. Perhaps Lodril has a role to play here? Also, the Empire of the Wyrms Friends is likely to have taken an interest in the pass. So there's scope for ancient structures, perhaps a crumbling monastery high on a cliff ledge or hugging a strange spire with the remains of spiral steps up to it? And its shape - it has to be narrow and winding like the body of its namesake. Location High in the Rockwoods. So if it is a hot pass it's going to produce some interesting anomalies. I envision constant steam as heat from the pass meets cold air above. Thick fogs fill the pass and Iphara is strong here. When heavy snow falls it rapidly evaporates, creating pools of water along the valley floor which may be heated to extreme temperatures by gaseous discharges. The cliffs of the pass are characterised by spectacular waterfalls as runoff from the ice and snow to the sides of the pass melts and cascades down. Balazar's aldryami High Woods lie to the north, the uz lands of Dagori Inkarth are south and dwarven Greatway is west. So the pass is obviously a contested place, which lines up with historical references I've found. There's certainly recorded conflict between aldryami and uz either side of the pass, but if we accept it has rich mineral deposits then I suggest dwarven interest has shaped its history too. Also to the south is Bagtrap's Pass, another location I've found little about. I've created a tale of a cave by the pass which always looked like a viable place to stay for a night. But this cave had strange walls and floor, leathery in texture. Those foolish enough to stay here found that they had camped in a huge bag placed in the cave by a cunning giant, who would pull it closed with a drawstring which went up through a funnel in the roof to the cliff above. Which leads to another important point about location. There are giants either side of the pass and they sometimes travel through it too. History I haven't found many specific references to the pass in sources, but events around it give hints. Here are a few human-centric points. End of First Age: Tribes from the south swarm through the pass, burn the aldryami woods and some join the Votanki already in the north. Empire of the Wyrm's Friends: The pass flourishes as both a crossing point and place of pilgrimage. Post-Dragonkill: People no longer come from the south and the Balazarings avoid it. The destruction of Dykene in 1250 effectively gives the south-east of Balazar to the aldryami and people forget about the pass. Dykene's resurgence, 1580: Begins renewed exploration of the pass. Joh Mith: I've elevated the role of Joh Mith to the person who quested to properly reopen the pass. He speaks the Wyrds of the Wyrm's Way and he fills the Giant's Bag. Fall of Sartar 1602 and onwards: Refugees come north through the pass and are accepted by King Yalaring of Trilus, leading to building the Lightbringer's Hall there. What do you know? Well there's a few ideas. But what do you know or suggest about the pass? I'm keen to find out about anything written about it over the years, anything those well versed in Gloranthan lore can tell us and also about depictions of it in anybody else's adventures.

Definitely interested in this too. I've been referring quite a bit to Tarsh in Flames for some stuff I'm writing about the forest that rises from the Black Eel to the Rockwoods and a cleaner, colour Furthest map would be great.

Yes, definitely makes sense for The Ancestors of the Lenshi Kings being from the Grey Age - with a bit of digging I've found this The Silver Age and the Dawn which has a great map showing the Elf Sea. This is where I've started from too. So perhaps the Elf Sea predates the melting of the glacier, and in fact what the melt does is reveal the sea once again as the ice retreats? I like this a lot. Once it's revealed as the glacier retreats the sea gets straight back into action by drowning chaos beasts and that's what gives it the 'Lake of Death' moniker. In my Glorantha, when the Elf Sea answered the Magasta's Call it didn't do what other water spirits did, leaving a trail that became a river. It left, completely. Hence the urgency for local water spirits such as Dwerrow to repopulate it. Splitting hairs perhaps, but that means it wasn't the Elf Sea spirit that drowned chaos beasts - instead it was all of those spirits who remade the sea by repopulating it with water after Magasta's Call. Perhaps another reason for being called the Lake of Death, because in fact its spirit had sacrificed itself to save the world? That could set up the fragility of the sea which leads ultimately during time to its blue elf population dying out. Murthdrya alone wasn't strong enough to keep things going when whatever befell the old aldryami forest across the land during Time occurred. So we end up with the current situation where the blue elves are long gone and the Elf Sea is considered a treacherous inland sea.

OK, so continuing the Balazar thread... Some really interesting stuff here. I'm particularly interested in some of the thoughts early in the thread about High Bridge. I've recently run a quest about making the case to Dwerrow for leaving the Rockwoods to join the other water deities in filling the Chaos Void at the centre of the world after the explosion of the Spike. That moment when the summoning happens and waters become rivers in response has fascinated me for some time, and I was keen to explore how it might have been done, who did it, why the response was so universal... oh, lots of things really. It's just such a pivotal moment in the Gods War. This precedes me reading Ancestors of the Lenshi Kings which suggests the Elf Sea may have been created during time. The thread a bit ago about the Windstop and the Great Darkness was really useful for ideas about climate during the Great Darkness. In the quest the Elf Sea has answered the call to fill the void and left, leaving everything - well - high and dry. Dwerrow and the other water spirits in the area are called too, but I wondered how that might pan out in terms of a localised myth. So this becomes a tale of them being called to refill the Elf Sea. Turtle Mother and others go to the Rockwoods where Dwerrow is busy helping the Greatway dwarves' early efforts to rebuild the World Machine by powering their machines. The quest becomes one of telling Dwerrow he has a higher calling, and either forcibly taking him from the dwarves or convincing them that they should allow him to leave. There are things to resolve too that explain Dwerrow's nature during Time, like why exactly is he so raging and fast flowing, and what is the High Bridge? Some conclusions from the quest: Dwerrow leaves with great enthusiasm. That boundless energy explains his fast flowing nature The dwarves allow him to leave, but they exact a toll - the High Bridge is a yolk that ensures he still works their machines while also flowing to the sea. The freezing conditions of the Great Darkness mean Turtle Mother must give Dwerrow her speed to help him flow fast towards the sea. Thus are turtles slow moving on land ever more. Dwerrow recognises Turtle Mother's sacrifice by giving her Turtle Landing where turtles can safely lay their eggs. So there it is. In my Glorantha, High Bridge definitely precedes Time and the essential role it plays in ensuring continued service by Dwerrow in helping to repair the World Machine goes a long way to describing why nobody else can claim to own it.

Thanks @jajagappa, it makes a lot of sense for Orlanthi from Imther being in Trilus. That will nicely tip things from the bias towards Dragon Pass refugees presented in Griffin Mountain towards a more likely mix of origins given the location of Balazar.

Not official, but if you can get Tarsh in Flames there's a 5 page piece about Furthest with map.

Some really useful answers and discussion folks, thanks. Balazar is specifically where I'm thinking of at the moment - we're playing things out against a backdrop of the Orlanthi of Trilus beginning to organise themselves into a tribe. The Making of the Storm Tribe quest and the role of Ernalda are key points I've been thinking over. Tarshite society is also something I've been giving thought to, I've been putting notes together about differences between fully Lunarised lowlanders and more traditional, often recalcitrant Orlanthi in the foothills of the Rockwoods. @Jon Hunter's Back to Balazar is proving useful (thanks Jon!) and Tarsh in Flames, though obviously non-canon, has been a great source for the latter.

Thanks @Tindalos that's cleared things up. I hadn't thought about the relationship betwee then other Earth gods and Ernalda.

What do Orlanthi tribes do in lands where the earth isn't Ernalda? For instance, in Peloria or Ralios.

@David ScottSo the rivers have already been formed before the Great Darkness really takes its grip on the land. Makes sense, as their actions after the Spike exploded were extremely urgent. The characters in my current campaign are just about to embark on a quest to summon Dwerrow, the river that cuts across central Balazar, to answer the call to fill the chaos rift... this gives me a good steer on prevailing conditions when they cross to the other side. Did the dominance of cold over water, which stilled many rivers, create any sort of crisis in keeping Magasta's Pool replenished? And a slight aside - what, in mythological terms, creates the distinction between salt and fresh water in Glorantha?

@David ScottI'm interested in Great Darkness parallels too, and I'm sure its myths are going to be visited a lot by those trying to survive in the bleak conditions of the Windstop. During the Great Darkness rivers answered the call to flow back to the ocean despite glacial conditions, so I expect quests to find and use that vigour and determination to try to keep water flowing. There will be new revelations of Foundchild's teachings about how to hunt and survive in such desperate straits. I wonder too if chaotic beings will revisit what was a golden age for them, and try to shift things in their favour?